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Match-up Discussion Superman Matchup Discussion

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Utricle

Noob
Any tips vs Flash? Ran into a couple but can't seem to get a handle on what he's doing. Thx in advance
I'm sure Raynex will have much more useful stuff to say about this, but some things I've learned recently that have helped me a lot:
PUNISH the shit out of his lunge attack. It's very unsafe, so hit it with a F23 and get a free full combo every time he does it. Flash doesn't have a lot of other options midrange.
Also, once the flash gets within a few feet of you block high. Flash has a really quick overhead that can lead to a full combo, and it has much better range than his low starter.
 

RWDY Nori

Where is crossplay?
The ones I run into spam the low starter. Are either the high or low starter unsafe? Does he have a mid combo starter? Seems so tricky up close but it could also be me being ignorant of the MU
 

Utricle

Noob
His D123 is -10 but his D12 is 0 on block. When Flash is right on top of you, you are definitely going to have to guess, it's what makes him a strong character. But as I said before, that low starter has a much shorter reach, recognize when he's in that area and block low, but if he's a little further out I generally block high. And again, remember to punish that lunging charge attack, it's -21.
 

Raynex

Intelligence + Speed + Power
DeathAndHealing, Sid Hooks

Grundy MU Notes

Punishing:

- Meterless Cleaver Spin (DB+1) is punishable with anything when blocked, but 223 or F23 are preferred. Remember to block high as it is an overhead and leads to combos on hit. [MB] Cleaver Spin is MUCH better: it is armored right before its hit frames and also + on block. Generally, just block it and relish in the fact that he wasted a meter and gained nothing from it. If you know it's coming based on previous patterns, utilize [MB] armor B3 / F3 for a full combo in those specific situations, as it is still a single hit move.

- Both versions of Walking Corpse (BF+3) aka his running command grab, can be neutral jumped like any other command throw and punished on the way down. Either neutral jump or backwards jump and attack on the way down.

- Both meterless Swamp Hands (DB+2) and [MB] Swamp Hands are + on block, meaning they are better than safe - Grundy has slight advantage. Blocking them guarantees no punish, not even with super. BUT, you can treat it like a traditional projectile if Grundy is tossing them from far away. If you think he's going to throw it out simply jump towards him for a full combo. You have a lot of time to do this so don't hesitate to airdash forwards if he's far, you'll still get him for a great punish. Remember: jump-in > swamp hands

*Against a Grundy that ends strings with Swamp Hands (e.g. 11~DB+2), mentally record that habit because you can punish it in the exact same way. Swamp Hands has similar start-up to Superman's Heat Zap (basically it's like molasses), so if you smell a Swamp Hands blockstring ender during pressure, hold up and j.2 on the way down. Easy peezy!

- When Grundy activates his Super, every character in the game is forced to play cat and mouse - but not Superman! Activate your trait the moment he activates Super and one hit will cause him to waste all that hard earned meter. If you're out of trait for whatever reason, here is the basic strategy I use:

Ground Super Grab: try to read the grab attempt, jump and airdash over him
Air Super Grab : try to read the grab attempt, dash underneath

Use these strategies for evasion and you'll be able to buy time and recharge trait.


General tips:

- Grundy has arguably the best dash in the game. He can actually block slightly before his dash animation ends which is kind of crazy. As Superman it is hard to land tricky hits, so we have to focus on movement and spacing in order to get things going. Because his dash is so strong, many Grundy players overuse it or resort to multiple ground dashes to cross the screen in a hurry. If you time F23 to hit in the middle of his dash the game considers Grundy to still be grounded, netting you a full combo. His dash begins and ends VERY quickly so don't worry too much about missing the timing. Even if he blocks F23 he's in your world now, so cancel into Breath and stay on him! This particular tip is for those quick and focused enough to interrupt that amazing dash. Stay on your toes and try to work in this punish; the amount of hits you land per match will go up drastically because of it!

- Traditional "versus grappler" mindset applies in all scenarios. Jump or backdash his command throws when applicable, and don't sleep when blocking. He WILL attempt a grab and it is up to you to determine when so you don't get bodied. If you aren't comfortable playing hit for hit at close range, move back and shoot some visions / zaps to clear your head and work that chip damage. He has a ton of armored moves, so when you decide to get in there you need make smart decisions and block / backdash / jump accordingly.
Grundy is a great, 'honest' character and difficult to beat if you're not used to him.
 

Raynex

Intelligence + Speed + Power
DeathAndHealing, Nori Batousai, Utricle

Flash MU Notes

Punishing:

- Lightning kick is -5 which means it is only punishable by Super. You can, however, go for any quick mid-hitting move (22, F2) or throw which he must block or break. In other words this is where his pressure ends. Don't be fooled and continue to block! If he attempts to D1 after you block his lightning kick (D1 is his fastest move), your next move will beat him. My recommendation is to welcome this shift in momentum and pressure him back intelligently. Identifying when to be offensive and when to be defensive is key. If you block this kick and do nothing you've already lost your moment to turn the tides.

- Lightning charge (BF+2) aka headbutt is punished easily (-21) and from any range by F23.

- Flying Uppercut (DB+3) is punished easily (-17) by F23 and 223.

- Speed Dodge (DB+1) is punishable immediately after activation, during the first few moments of his shake. If you try to F2 him afterwards he will block it. If you time your reactionary attack correctly, his [MB] "burst" will actually lose. It seems to only work if Flash successfully evades an attack using Speed Dodge. This doesn't come up too much, but sometimes players feel the need to risk a close range speed dodge, so it's a good thing to remember.

Dismantling the Running Man Stance;

I found a very effective and simply way to completely remove this stance's "mix-up": block low.

Headbutt follow-up (F~1) - block and punish with F23, just like his normal headbutt.
Slide follow-up (F~3) - block and punish with anything, preferably 223 or F23.
Overhead follow-up (F~2) - blocking low causes the 2nd hit to overshoot and whiff entirely, punish when this occurs. If you for some reason you stand block the whole thing, the overhead is unsafe and punishable by F23 anyways.

Remember, low blocking > this stance from a distance. If Flash uses stance cancels in pressure, you can't punish him but you might be able to interrupt him with D1 if he goes for a string.


General Tips:

- Pushblocking causes Flash's trait to disappear instantly. Also, Flash cannot block while trait is active, so trying to clip him with D1 is a pretty good idea.

- Flash j2 has great priority, so D2 AA is out of the question. I would recommend air-to-air j1, j2, or dashing underneath and punishing him when he lands. If he takes to the air and you haven't made up your mind, dashing underneath is probably the best option.

- There is no trick to beating his high / low mix-ups. Block correctly when standing or perform wake-up scoop / rising grab off the ground to beat him out. Backdashing on wake-up is a very bad idea as Flash's overhead option F2 inherently moves him forward, meaning he doesn't have to work too hard to punish it.

This match-up is similar to Superman vs. Aquaman in that Flash is not very exploitable aside from the punishes you get if you play intelligently. Go about the neutral game however you see fit and make sure to get damage in when he does any of the unsafe moves mentioned above. Superman doesn't have a strong 50/50 game so he needs to use match-up knowledge and smart play to score hits and do truckloads of damage, especially in match-ups against solid characters like this.
 

MrAvA

Smashing.
Great post as usual Raynex. I was wondering if you will do a MU notes on Cat because that B^T$H ruin my win streak. Also if you will have one on Ares and Black Adam because sadly I never face a good one.
 

Dandy J

i can see all the amine
Any advise against Black Adam? Got blown up in Grand Finals of our local tournament by Black Adam after I went 2-0 on his Aquaman. He went 3 straight Black Adam, didn't really know what to do.
Had a similar experience, had to switch to Doomsday. If your experience was anything like mine, BA can basically just move backwards and f23 just becomes a way to get hit. In fact, I'm not sure Superman can even punish BA backdash after making him block breath? Dash/move forward f23 doesn't work, d/f3 doesn't work, bf3 doesn't work. Besides super I don't think there's anything to do? Maybe I'm missing something. Anyway In my head I think basically in this match you both just sit there and do absolutely nothing, BA waits for f23 whiff while Superman waits for b23 whiff, then either punishes accordingly. Basically unless BA does something that gives you a guaranteed punish, never do anything ever.

Once you get him in the corner, then play like you do vs a normal character. Of course he will do the same to you.
 

InfernoZ

Noob
Yeah BA appears a difficult matchup. Noticed this playing at locals the other day, the matchup seemed unusually more difficult for me to get things going than against other characters

Good thing I'm learning Cyborg on the side, seems like he deals with the character much easier

Ray, you are da matchup gawd atm. If you have anything for BA then help a few brothers out plz
 

Solid

The Longbow Hunter.
I played a Hawkgirl online that just kept in the air. Probably he was doing the daily challenge thing cause all he did was go in the air and try to hit me by throwing the mace. I just dashed under Hawkgirl, saw wich side she would turn and rising grab into lazer her ass. After she got frustrated she tried the ground fight which I went back to Supermans standard stuff. What are you guys having trouble with in Hawkgirl's match up?
 

xQUANTUMx

Twitter: @xxQUANTUM
my fundamentals go out the window when I fight her and I get impatient. Its a me problem, not a superman problem. I'm impatient in general except for some reason, when I play subzero, which is why I mained him in the past, forced me to take a step back and evaluate. I started doing the same with super to larger degrees of success
 

Raynex

Intelligence + Speed + Power
Yeah BA appears a difficult matchup. Noticed this playing at locals the other day, the matchup seemed unusually more difficult for me to get things going than against other characters

Good thing I'm learning Cyborg on the side, seems like he deals with the character much easier

Ray, you are da matchup gawd atm. If you have anything for BA then help a few brothers out plz
First time playing a good BA was GGA Han at the most recent Road to Evo event. This match-up seems to be the hardest for Superman thus far. I haven't done any extensive testing against him though. For starters, jump backwards when you think he'll divekick and you can land on him with j.2. I got blown up by his [MB] lightning cage on wake-up which is apparently safe if blocked, but fully punishable (according to RIP) if you neutral jump it. We gotta go into the lab against this guy.


How in god's name does Superman beat Hawkgirl?


Someone please answer this?!
I've never faced a Hawkgirl, but I heard she's a pretty amazing character. What problems were you having?
 
Alright, Im asking you guys since you probably have a better grasp of Superman than other character forums. I am having trouble escaping f23 pressure. Maybe it was just online delay, but it seems like Superman is at advantage after almost everything he can do in f23? I mainly play Green Arrow, so I was trying to find a well timed d1 to interrupt and kept getting blow up when I would try to poke out. Is it best to just push block when he starts his f23 strings? I guess Ill start playing some Superman to really learn what he has.
 

learis1

Guardian Cadet
How in god's name does Superman beat Hawkgirl?


Someone please answer this?!
My one piece of advice is I would strongly recommend AGAINST using his air laser. Hawkgirl can easily avoid that and blow it up. Overall I think her zoning game beats superman's so try to close the gap against her.
 

xQUANTUMx

Twitter: @xxQUANTUM
Alright, Im asking you guys since you probably have a better grasp of Superman than other character forums. I am having trouble escaping f23 pressure. Maybe it was just online delay, but it seems like Superman is at advantage after almost everything he can do in f23? I mainly play Green Arrow, so I was trying to find a well timed d1 to interrupt and kept getting blow up when I would try to poke out. Is it best to just push block when he starts his f23 strings? I guess Ill start playing some Superman to really learn what he has.
dont try to d1 in a f23 loop, its hit confirmable into breath. you may want to take that hit though, as the push back favors you getting out of pressure and you can zone again. db2 (i think) is great for creating space and getting out of a tough spot. Neo russell used it pretty well at toryuken
 

Raynex

Intelligence + Speed + Power
Alright, Im asking you guys since you probably have a better grasp of Superman than other character forums. I am having trouble escaping f23 pressure. Maybe it was just online delay, but it seems like Superman is at advantage after almost everything he can do in f23? I mainly play Green Arrow, so I was trying to find a well timed d1 to interrupt and kept getting blow up when I would try to poke out. Is it best to just push block when he starts his f23 strings? I guess Ill start playing some Superman to really learn what he has.
My secondary is Green Arrow actually. Some characters have true interrupts for Superman's F23 xx Breath string. Breath is only +1, but the problem is if Superman does F2 again it becomes 7f. Green Arrow's D1 is also 7f. Even though both F2 and D1 are the same speed in this situation, Superman's F2 will always beat D1 because of move priority (3 > 2 > 1). GA NEEDS to stay away from Superman and only get in his face on his terms, while he is pressuring. Do not just wander into F23 range because once you block it getting out is difficult. If you do encounter this pressure again, these 3 worthwhile options are the only ones that work:

- After blocking Breath, backdash twice. GA's backdash is very quick, so it evades F2 AND 3 so they whiff entirely. Superman cannot cancel into another Breath string ender if either of those moves miss. These two backdashes must be well timed, but it is his only meterless escape option.

- [MB] B3 or F3 will rip through whatever Superman tries after you block Breath. This is my go-to as GA, as I'd rather use the meter for damage attempt instead of pushblock. Even if B3 / F3 are blocked they are both +6 on block so you can frame trap. MUCH better than pushblock imo (unless your opponent is expecting it)

- Pushblock!
 

Dan

KomboMaker
Hi Raynex, thanks once more for your participation here!

Quick question: Do you think that is it good to pressure Aquaman with the f23, Super Breath string?

I was fighting a very good Aquaman yesterday and everytime I finished that string to start another one (f2d1 i.e.) he low poked me. Don't know if this strategy goes well in this MU.
 

Raynex

Intelligence + Speed + Power
Hi Raynex, thanks once more for your participation here!

Quick question: Do you think that is it good to pressure Aquaman with the f23, Super Breath string?

I was fighting a very good Aquaman yesterday and everytime I finished that string to start another one (f2d1 i.e.) he low poked me. Don't know if this strategy goes well in this MU.
Hey Dan; no problem, and thank you for the acknowledgement. F23 Breath is always good, even against Aquaman. He is one of the characters that has an interrupt for this pressure though. It occurs here: F23~Breath, [Aquaman D2 here] F23. If Aquaman does a well timed D2 after blocking Breath, he will either beat or trade with your F2 (usually beat), and get a full combo from it. The strategy here would be to F23 xx Breath, and pause. If he hits D2 or anything else, your patience will keep you out of harm's way and you can punish his whiff with F23 into the combo of your choosing.

So F23 xx Breath and pause. If he expects your F23 blockstring and tries to interrupt with a move, you watch for it and punish him accordingly! It's a straight 50/50 in this situation. Once you condition him to stop trying to press buttons you can resume the block trap or mix-up him up further.
 
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Sei

Noob
As a strictly superman player i just f23 breath until i see retaliation then i try one of the 3, wait and block, neutral jump then 3, or ex the breath to trick them other than that i try to do whatever is possible to get them to the corner then i can have my way with them. more supermans need to utilize the advantage after the breath more the little bit of hope your opponents have in interrupting you will go away. online only has prepared me for the mirror matches. this is all IMO.
 
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