Guide - Grandmaster Sub-Zero GRANDMASTER Guide

[RM Ree]

Does the extra FJP add any damage? I'd think at that point it would give them more meter than give SZ %

 

[crosshair271]

Does the extra FJP add any damage? I'd think at that point it would give them more meter than give SZ %

Depending on the combo it adds 1-2% per punch and sets up the position better for the F12. I'd rather have a dead opponent. They will end up with the meter eventually whether they use specials, make you guard, or you hit them later on after the combo.

 

[Creepy00]

Does the extra FJP add any damage? I'd think at that point it would give them more meter than give SZ %

You can also do a BJP after the FJP for an additional 1% and Ice clone set up. Although, I'm not sure if this is better than FJP F12.

 

[RM Ree]

Better for shatter set ups I think? It's crazy how many specific clone distances lead to different strategies in the following mix up.

 

[Matix218]

You can also do a BJP after the FJP for an additional 1% and Ice clone set up. Although, I'm not sure if this is better than FJP F12.

The f12 is like +40 on hit, the idea with using it is that you get a free clone as well as the most possible frame advantage

 

[Ravosa]

I'm looking SPECIFICALLY for the b2, delayed 242 female corner combo that Brady did after during the predator stream. @I GOT HANDS I know you saw the stream and the combo.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I'm looking SPECIFICALLY for the b2, delayed 242 female corner combo that Brady did after during the predator stream. @I GOT HANDS I know you saw the stream and the combo.

Actually I missed it

Against females I use B2, B2, 1, 1, B12xxClone, NjP NjK



Kinda hard offline and basically impossible to do online tho. Did you see how much Bradys did?

 

[Ravosa]

Actually I missed it

Against females I use B2, B2, 1, 1, B12xxClone, NjP NjK



Kinda hard offline and basically impossible to do online tho. Did you see how much Bradys did?

The one you just listed is pretty easy offline but online it can be rough. I don't remember how much Brady's did but I remember it was extremely consistent, and to me that's the most important thing. He started it with b2, let them fall slightly, then 242, then something into clone and it worked EVERY time. That's all I want. Consistency.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Felt like doing a MU chart, but didn't wanna make a thread for it since I'm a scrub. lol

This is my thoughts for Sub's MUs in Grandmaster. I don't give two shits about the other 2 variations.

Sub's number on the left.

Jason - 6-4 *
Kung Lao - 3-7
Jax - 5-5
Sonya - 6-4
Kenshi - 4-6
Kitana - 5-5
Scorpion - 6-4
Sub - 5-5
Mileena - 6-4 *
Takeda - 7-3
Cassie - 6-4
Jacqui - 6-4 *
Kung Jin - 4-6
Tanya - 3-7
Predator - 5-5 *
Shinnok - 4-6
Kano - 6-4
Johnny Cage 7-3
Erron Black 4-6
Liu Kang - 5-5
Ermac - 4-6
Kotal - 6-4
Reptile - 7-3
Ferra/Torr - 5-5 *
D'vorah - 3-7
Raiden - 5-5
Quan Chi - 5-5
Goro - 7-3

asterisks are mus I'm not really sure about/haven't played much.

Winning: 11
Even: 8
Losing: 7

Just based on my experiences obviously.

Blow me up if you will.

 

[Creepy00]

The f12 is like +40 on hit, the idea with using it is that you get a free clone as well as the most possible frame advantage

Yes, i'm aware. I was referring to whether there Is an advantage in doing BJP F12 over FJP F12 or if it is the same. As far I know, The higher your opponent is when F12 connect the more advantage you have.

 

[Ravosa]

Felt like doing a MU chart, but didn't wanna make a thread for it since I'm a scrub. lol

This is my thoughts for Sub's MUs in Grandmaster. I don't give two shits about the other 2 variations.

Sub's number on the left.

Jason - 6-4 *
Kung Lao - 3-7
Jax - 5-5
Sonya - 6-4
Kenshi - 4-6
Kitana - 5-5
Scorpion - 6-4
Sub - 5-5
Mileena - 6-4 *
Takeda - 7-3
Cassie - 6-4
Jacqui - 6-4 *
Kung Jin - 4-6
Tanya - 3-7
Predator - 5-5 *
Shinnok - 4-6
Kano - 6-4
Johnny Cage 7-3
Erron Black 4-6
Liu Kang - 5-5
Ermac - 4-6
Kotal - 6-4
Reptile - 7-3
Ferra/Torr - 5-5 *
D'vorah - 3-7
Raiden - 5-5
Quan Chi - 5-5
Goro - 7-3

asterisks are mus I'm not really sure about/haven't played much.

Winning: 11
Even: 8
Losing: 7

Just based on my experiences obviously.

Blow me up if you will.

Sub beats Jason 7-3

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Felt like doing a MU chart, but didn't wanna make a thread for it since I'm a scrub. lol

This is my thoughts for Sub's MUs in Grandmaster. I don't give two shits about the other 2 variations.

Sub's number on the left.

Jason - 6-4 *
Kung Lao - 3-7
Jax - 5-5
Sonya - 6-4
Kenshi - 4-6
Kitana - 5-5
Scorpion - 6-4
Sub - 5-5
Mileena - 6-4 *
Takeda - 7-3
Cassie - 6-4
Jacqui - 6-4 *
Kung Jin - 4-6
Tanya - 3-7
Predator - 5-5 *
Shinnok - 4-6
Kano - 6-4
Johnny Cage 7-3
Erron Black 4-6
Liu Kang - 5-5
Ermac - 4-6
Kotal - 6-4
Reptile - 7-3
Ferra/Torr - 5-5 *
D'vorah - 3-7
Raiden - 5-5
Quan Chi - 5-5
Goro - 7-3

asterisks are mus I'm not really sure about/haven't played much.

Winning: 11
Even: 8
Losing: 7

Just based on my experiences obviously.

Blow me up if you will.

Just my opinion on a couple. Subs a funny one IMO. He sort of stands outside the meta IMO, as good match ups against some strong characters and some bad match ups against some weak characters.

I actually don't think Tempest Lao is that bad. 4-6 at worst. He is an excellent character but doesn't really have any of the things that make a match up super hard for Sub. He also can't abuse his J2 range on us.

Goro is most definitely a 5-5, possibly even 4-6. Everything that makes Sub good is pretty crappy against him.

Raiden is 4-6. possibly worse. He has WAY better normals, better 50/50, better damage off everything, MUCH better ways to spend meter for damage, and MULTIPLE ways around the clone as well as being able to punish it on reaction from full screen for a bar, for free up close.

I think Jacqui is actually a 7-3 our way, but 6-4 against Shotgun who has a bit more use here.

QC - I really don't see how it goes even. His strengths are really accentuated in this match up.

Tanya I admittedly don't have a huge amount of experience with, but 3-7? Why? Really doesn't feel that bad at all, and definitely didn't look that bad at CEO grand finals either. I might be wrong here however, just curious how?

Predator 7-3 our way. I don't give a shit how strong he is against the rest of the cast, or about his D4. All his weaknesses come glaring out in this match up in my experience.


That's what jumped out at me.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Just my opinion on a couple. Subs a funny one IMO. He sort of stands outside the meta IMO, as good match ups against some strong characters and some bad match ups against some weak characters.

I actually don't think Tempest Lao is that bad. 4-6 at worst. He is an excellent character but doesn't really have any of the things that make a match up super hard for Sub. He also can't abuse his J2 range on us.

Goro is most definitely a 5-5, possibly even 4-6. Everything that makes Sub good is pretty crappy against him.

Raiden is 4-6. possibly worse. He has WAY better normals, better 50/50, better damage off everything, MUCH better ways to spend meter for damage, and MULTIPLE ways around the clone as well as being able to punish it on reaction from full screen for a bar, for free up close.

I think Jacqui is actually a 7-3 our way, but 6-4 against Shotgun who has a bit more use here.

QC - I really don't see how it goes even. His strengths are really accentuated in this match up.

Tanya I admittedly don't have a huge amount of experience with, but 3-7? Why? Really doesn't feel that bad at all, and definitely didn't look that bad at CEO grand finals either. I might be wrong here however, just curious how?

Predator 7-3 our way. I don't give a shit how strong he is against the rest of the cast, or about his D4. All his weaknesses come glaring out in this match up in my experience.


That's what jumped out at me.

I can agree with Lao, but this is like I said... based on my experiences and I have always struggled against kung lao.

Goro, what makes you think sub loses it?

I don't get the raiden losing mu train ppl seem to be on... What can he do when you have the life lead and a clone out? I think sub wins by playing super lame.

QC - Touch of death. Yeah, you can body him in the corner and on wakeup... but all it takes is just one touch. I refuse to believe Quan has any losing mus for this reason. lol

Tanya - Just seems like she can run away really well. It's hard for me to catch her and get a lead.

Predator - I honestly think Sub beats predator as well... but I've only played him a handful of times. Sub can really lock him down in the corner and clone eats up smart disc and plasma shots letting sub get in with a slide or run.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

I can agree with Lao, but this is like I said... based on my experiences and I have always struggled against kung lao.

Goro, what makes you think sub loses it?

I don't get the raiden losing mu train ppl seem to be on... What can he do when you have the life lead and a clone out? I think sub wins by playing super lame.

QC - Touch of death. Yeah, you can body him in the corner and on wakeup... but all it takes is just one touch. I refuse to believe Quan has any losing mus for this reason. lol

Tanya - Just seems like she can run away really well. It's hard for me to catch her and get a lead.

Predator - I honestly think Sub beats predator as well... but I've only played him a handful of times. Sub can really lock him down in the corner and clone eats up smart disc and plasma shots letting sub get in with a slide or run.

Because Goros ex-Punchwalk is so strong. He punishes Clone Toss and Iceball from behind a Clone, on reaction, even if you Cloned from full screen neutral, and then combos into like 30%. And that's assuming he missed the punish on the Clone itself which is free with his teleport. Sub is built around his corner game, but you really have to respect Punchwalk, and he can just throw it out whenever, and even if you block it, it's punishable and still pushes him out of the corner. On top of that, Tigrar has a low projectile that goes straight through Clone. He's just really solid with countering Subs gameplan. Might still just be a 5-5 because he isn't exactly an excellent character. However neither is Sub without the Clone so I still think it tilts Goros way.

What do you mean what can Raiden do? What cant he do. His electric fingers can go straight through it when spaced well, his Shout goes straight through, he can catch you with superman if you try clone throw, and EX superman punishes the clone on reaction in the first place if you use it full screen. Sub cannot play at ALL lame vs Raiden.

I agree with you on QC. You misread what I'm saying. He's a better character than Sub off the bat, and everything that makes him good is even better against Sub. The most obvious and prominent thing being that as you said, he can easily win the game off a touch, SZ's low damage means he gets much more opportunities for that one touch, he only needs to get through once. Much worse than 5-5 IMO.

I feel like we actually have more ways to catch Tanya for than most other characters do. Just my opinion, believe me she's slippery for everyone, I think we do alright here

Glad you agree on Predator, that's why I don't think 5-5 is fair. We wreck the predator imo.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Because Goros ex-Punchwalk is so strong. He punishes Clone Toss and Iceball from behind a Clone, on reaction, even if you Cloned from full screen neutral, and then combos into like 30%. And that's assuming he missed the punish on the Clone itself which is free with his teleport. Sub is built around his corner game, but you really have to respect Punchwalk, and he can just throw it out whenever, and even if you block it, it's punishable and still pushes him out of the corner. On top of that, Tigrar has a low projectile that goes straight through Clone. He's just really solid with countering Subs gameplan. Might still just be a 5-5 because he isn't exactly an excellent character. However neither is Sub without the Clone so I still think it tilts Goros way.

What do you mean what can Raiden do? What cant he do. His electric fingers can go straight through it when spaced well, his Shout goes straight through, he can catch you with superman if you try clone throw, and EX superman punishes the clone on reaction in the first place if you use it full screen. Sub cannot play at ALL lame vs Raiden.

I agree with you on QC. You misread what I'm saying. He's a better character than Sub off the bat, and everything that makes him good is even better against Sub. The most obvious and prominent thing being that as you said, he can easily win the game off a touch, SZ's low damage means he gets much more opportunities for that one touch, he only needs to get through once. Much worse than 5-5 IMO.

I feel like we actually have more ways to catch Tanya for than most other characters do. Just my opinion, believe me she's slippery for everyone, I think we do alright here

Glad you agree on Predator, that's why I don't think 5-5 is fair. We wreck the predator imo.

Can you explain the teleport punish with Goro? When does he have to do it to punish you? If I clone and then they try to tele... I just walk forward and duck in clone and tele is frozen OR I can just slide and he whiffs. I haven't played a goro that ever punished clone with teleport. But, then again... haven't played many goros. Maybe the key is... I don't respect goro at all. lmao

Well, I wouldn't be throwing clones at raiden lol. If you have a lead he has superman and lightning bolts. Botls are blocked by clone and/or ex freeze. So he's got an armored superman that you can punish if blocked. But see, this is why I post things like this... to get people talking about matchups. We all can't know everything and knowing what raidens will like to do and punish helps me out. I need to play more Raidens.

Well, I went 5-5 b/c I feel sub loses it... but I keep hearing ppl say sub bodies quan. I compromised. Same with Predator, just reverse.

My problem with tanya is that everything I've tried to punish her tele hasn't worked. How do you punish it when say... you do a blockstring into clone and they jump up and tele into a jump 1? I've tried jump back kick to knock her back into the clone. Haven't gotten that to connect. I've tried d4 to low profile and that results in me getting punched in the face on her way down (could be timing it wrong). And I haven't had the chance to try reverse ex slide to see if that catches her. Help would be appreciated.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Don't pander to public opinion. They can very well be wrong, especially if people pander to public opinion and become part of the mass of people themselves without even believing what they are saying. Go with what you know.

If you can't throw Clones at Raiden... What can you do from behind a clone? Iceball? He can just wait out the Clone timer and advance, all the while you are pushing yourself back to the corner, or losing any corner ground you had gained... All the while he can do his meter building tricks, building free meter to punish a clone as well, and his meter goes a lot further than yours in general. The armoured superman punishes, you can't block it if he does it fast enough, so there is no punish for sub. I don't see how any of this works at all vs Raiden. I think he's probably our worst match up, at best he's just slightly better than DVorah but still worse than everyone else.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Don't pander to public opinion. They can very well be wrong, especially if people pander to public opinion and become part of the mass of people themselves without even believing what they are saying. Go with what you know.

If you can't throw Clones at Raiden... What can you do from behind a clone? Iceball? He can just wait out the Clone timer and advance, all the while you are pushing yourself back to the corner, or losing any corner ground you had gained... All the while he can do his meter building tricks, building free meter to punish a clone as well, and his meter goes a lot further than yours in general. The armoured superman punishes, you can't block it if he does it fast enough, so there is no punish for sub. I don't see how any of this works at all vs Raiden. I think he's probably our worst match up, at best he's just slightly better than DVorah but still worse than everyone else.

Eh, Idk I play it the same way I did vs MK9 Raiden and I don't have much problem. And MK9 Raiden had a godlike teleport. If I'm backing myself to the corner... I've got a lead. He's gotta come to me and that means he's just 1 ex slide from being in the corner himself.

 

[JohnnyWorms]

Not sure if we know this already, but we can OS f3,3~ice blast and (more interesting to me) b1,2~xray.

 

[RM Ree]

I had no clue you could OS X-rays. Pretty awesome.

 

[zoofs]

The one you just listed is pretty easy offline but online it can be rough. I don't remember how much Brady's did but I remember it was extremely consistent, and to me that's the most important thing. He started it with b2, let them fall slightly, then 242, then something into clone and it worked EVERY time. That's all I want. Consistency.

b2, wait until they drop to your belt area, 242, 2 xx clone, njp, ender works sorta well but I wouldn't recommend it for online lol

also a side note about that as I'm not sure if anyone else has anything: ex ice bomb in the corner against females you can do 242, 2 ice clone, njp, jip, f12

b2, 1, 1, b12 clone works as well but pretty strict

 

[RM Ree]

B2, b2, d1, b3 xx clone works on females, doesn't it?

Also, I'll use f4 xx ex frost bomb if I can read an armored wake up. In the corner, it acts just like a b2 launch, so you can do ex frost bomb, b2, d1 b12 xx clone on males. Likely possible to replace b12 with b3 here to convert on females, but I haven't tested. @zoofs combo might be more damaging/ consistent as well, not sure.

 

[zoofs]

B2, b2, d1, b3 xx clone works on females, doesn't it?

Also, I'll use f4 xx ex frost bomb if I can read an armored wake up. In the corner, it acts just like a b2 launch, so you can do ex frost bomb, b2, d1 b12 xx clone on males. Likely possible to replace b12 with b3 here to convert on females, but I haven't tested. @zoofs combo might be more damaging/ consistent as well, not sure.

d1, b3 clone does work but I think doing just b3 clone is more consistent, I wouldn't use my combo or that one online but out of the two I think the 242 2 clone is a bit easier.

and yeah I use frost bomb the same way or to bait something after a b12/d4/f4 on block into ex frost bomb when they try to poke/whatever. b2, d1, b12 clone is definitely the best option on males but I was trying to figure out something for females. B3 clone is possible after the b2 but super strict imo.

if any b2 clone combo on females was going to be used offline I would suggest probably 1,1, b12 if you have it consistent though. Best damage and probably the least strict.

 

[Ravosa]

I don't like how low to the ground b3 freezes them though. Sometimes I whiff the NJP because of it.

 

[RM Ree]

Yeah that's a little weird. The b2, b2, 1, 1, b12 xx clone freezes ladies a little higher, or you can just use ex ice blast to freeze instead and think of it as a trade off for being able to low>freeze them, meterless, mid screen.

 

[GhostlyMachine]

I hope you are all turning on Block mode as stance and Movement as duck because why would you test it on a standing opponent?

Also juggling B2 on a crouch blocking female juggles even lower. If SZ is extremely close to the female in the corner, the 2nd B2 won't even hit. It will only work from range. So up close needs a different combo.