Sub-Zero General Discussion

[OldManFGC]

Next up I'm doing a "How to Win" series with Sub and then after that probably something with MUs and kameos--don't know why, just have the bug to make them. If anyone has any Sub requests, lemme know.

 

[OldManFGC]

Alright, part 1 of... many? We'll see!

 

[OldManFGC]

Next one about using Mix.

The one after this will be about Set Ups.

 

[OldManFGC]

Next up!

 

[OldManFGC]

And another for any who are interested.

 

[OldManFGC]

And last one for a bit. Hope they help!

 

[FrozenG3oX]

@OldManFGC
Slide is too slow for it to be used as a footsie tool to punish whiffed moves midscreen. If you're just looking for random thrown out moves outside footsie range you'll get blown up for something else.

 

[just_2swift]

@OldManFGC
Slide is too slow for it to be used as a footsie tool to punish whiffed moves midscreen. If you're just looking for random thrown out moves outside footsie range you'll get blown up for something else.

No it's not. You can whiff punish with slide.

 

[FrozenG3oX]

His gameplan at the start is, wait for random whiffed moves and punish it with slide. You can do it if you're looking for it, but its not viable against actual good players

 

[BanTheTesters]

His gameplan at the start is, wait for random whiffed moves and punish it with slide. You can do it if you're looking for it, but its not viable against actual good players

Depends on what said move is

but normally you can infact use slide to punish mid

 

[OldManFGC]

It's been quiet in here, but in case any Sub players are still lurking, made this video about his new move:

 

[PrinceGoro]

It's been quiet in here, but in case any Sub players are still lurking, made this video about his new move:

Vapors is still usable in combos in combiantion with the new move, i find getting the clone to connect from this conversion is much more consistent.

f12xxdf4,micro dash 21 db2(slightly hold it) micro dash f21 clone, deep jump 12, j12 s3xxslide 281 damage.

You can also get the cyrax net as well.


I normally dont use cyrax with sub zero and started trying it out after this new move, so dont konw if this is a bug or intended but if i use this route f21xxSlide (cyrax chopper) instant air clone or f21xxdb2, f21xxSlide (cyrax chopper) instant air clone

If i try to use net after freezing with air clone it doesnt work and the net just hits and knocksdown

 

[Eji1700]

1. As always mrPAchem is lab monstering with the new move, and it looks pretty nice, if once again not what they really showed off (just like rain?):

2. I'm....so confused as to what the point of vapors is at this point.

Thematically, it's a a BRILLIANT idea for sub. Yep we're going to slow down the frames on your move and then not just get combos from that, but some sort of setup/reaction/whatever.

Buuut it just...has never done what it was supposed to? It feels like a move that had some very clear, and very neat, concepts in mind for combos and counterplay, but it never panned out and so they just made it his main combo tool and then THAT was "too good" and they nerfed the shit out of it.

Now freezing your opponent twice in one combo with EX Palm nets you MORE damage than using EX vapors into clone (which does net you more frames but fuck if that isn't niche)?

So it's main purpose, whatever it was, failed and it became a combo tool, and then rather than fix that, they gave him a new move for a combo/setup tool, sooo now it's just...there? It's your "projectile" because his original projectile is ass, but it's also terrible to EX at any point outside of a combo, and I guess you get the occasional cute moment where you vapors a wakeup and block and murder them, but god what a wasted idea.

It only frustrates me so much becuase it's such a cool fucking idea and I just wish they could've made it more of his game rather than some edge case thing.

 

[OldManFGC]

Vapors is still usable in combos in combiantion with the new move, i find getting the clone to connect from this conversion is much more consistent.

f12xxdf4,micro dash 21 db2(slightly hold it) micro dash f21 clone, deep jump 12, j12 s3xxslide 281 damage.

You can also get the cyrax net as well.


I normally dont use cyrax with sub zero and started trying it out after this new move, so dont konw if this is a bug or intended but if i use this route f21xxSlide (cyrax chopper) instant air clone or f21xxdb2, f21xxSlide (cyrax chopper) instant air clone

If i try to use net after freezing with air clone it doesnt work and the net just hits and knocksdown

You're shaving a bit of damage off by using vapors in that combo. The same thing without it is 28.2, and I don't think adding the vapors or the slight hold on the Palm (which is interesting; thanks for the heads-up) makes it any easier. However, you'd get more corner carry your way and only lose .1 damage which is practically nothing, so I can see it being worth it. Just wish 21~Palm wasn't the hardest of the bunch to convert after.

Yup, you can Cyrax Net off of any string now meterlessly, but it is tight.

As for Cyrax Net not working after Copter, yeah, for some reason it doesn't. Not sure why--maybe an intended limit by NRS or just a glitch--but it would certainly be nice if it did.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[OldManFGC]

1. As always mrPAchem is lab monstering with the new move, and it looks pretty nice, if once again not what they really showed off (just like rain?):

2. I'm....so confused as to what the point of vapors is at this point.

Thematically, it's a a BRILLIANT idea for sub. Yep we're going to slow down the frames on your move and then not just get combos from that, but some sort of setup/reaction/whatever.

Buuut it just...has never done what it was supposed to? It feels like a move that had some very clear, and very neat, concepts in mind for combos and counterplay, but it never panned out and so they just made it his main combo tool and then THAT was "too good" and they nerfed the shit out of it.

Now freezing your opponent twice in one combo with EX Palm nets you MORE damage than using EX vapors into clone (which does net you more frames but fuck if that isn't niche)?

So it's main purpose, whatever it was, failed and it became a combo tool, and then rather than fix that, they gave him a new move for a combo/setup tool, sooo now it's just...there? It's your "projectile" because his original projectile is ass, but it's also terrible to EX at any point outside of a combo, and I guess you get the occasional cute moment where you vapors a wakeup and block and murder them, but god what a wasted idea.

It only frustrates me so much becuase it's such a cool fucking idea and I just wish they could've made it more of his game rather than some edge case thing.

1. Agreed. He does good work for the Sub community.

2. Great summary, and I agree with your frustration. Nowadays it's basically just there to get the first hit and chip out. Probably the oddest treatment of a move I've ever seen.

 

[Eji1700]

2. Great summary, and I agree with your frustration. Nowadays it's basically just there to get the first hit and chip out. Probably the oddest treatment of a move I've ever seen.

Its got that 90s/00s fighter vibe of "oh this would be cool" and then dropped into the game and never properly developed. Except it's extra weird given they've just...gone in circles patching around it multiple times.

I wish we could get some answers as to why it's the way it is. I feel like you didn't need to have polar palm at all if you just made vapors a bit better, and then removed its full screen tracking or something? It's just so damn odd.

 

[PrinceGoro]

You're shaving a bit of damage off by using vapors in that combo. The same thing without it is 28.2, and I don't think adding the vapors or the slight hold on the Palm (which is interesting; thanks for the heads-up) makes it any easier. However, you'd get more corner carry your way and only lose .1 damage which is practically nothing, so I can see it being worth it. Just wish 21~Palm wasn't the hardest of the bunch to convert after.

Yup, you can Cyrax Net off of any string now meterlessly, but it is tight.

As for Cyrax Net not working after Copter, yeah, for some reason it doesn't. Not sure why--maybe an intended limit by NRS or just a glitch--but it would certainly be nice if it did.

Thanks for the reply!

The freez duration of polar palm is either directly tied to how long you hold the button or it works by break points, if its the latter then i guess its placebo but i do find it noticeably easier to land when i do the hold vs just letting go. I agree linking that and getting the clone to hit is rather tight and this games input and non existent buffer system is partly to blame why certain things are just super inconsistent to execute and they border impractical.

Yeah its the range of 21 thats the issue, if you are hitting it at near max ranges the pushback of the seconde hit makes it impossible to land the clone as the micro dash done before f12xx clone doesnt then give you enoguh distance to land clone and dashing further makes f12 whiff.

 

[mrapchem]

Hello all,

I believe that the purpose of using normal Polar Palm in combos is literally to

a.) get some kind of meterless, kameoless damage on the opponent that comes from a string
b.) set up some kind of Kameo move whether it's Sonya's ring, Lao's low hat or some other Kameo move and
c.) push the opponent to the corner


But as we are starting to see, it's really the EX Polar Palm that is the bees-knees for our boy.

It is indeed odd that the move can be charged but doesn't gain any kind of safety nor can it be cancelled, but we still might be able to use it from behind an EX Klone in the corner against someone that likes to jump a lot.



Other than that, it's becoming increasingly clear that Polar Palm is truly an excellent move for Sub-Zero to have and is the next best thing we could have gotten after a 29-frame Ice Ball.

 

[PrinceGoro]

Hello all,

I believe that the purpose of using normal Polar Palm in combos is literally to

a.) get some kind of meterless, kameoless damage on the opponent that comes from a string
b.) set up some kind of Kameo move whether it's Sonya's ring, Lao's low hat or some other Kameo move and
c.) push the opponent to the corner


But as we are starting to see, it's really the EX Polar Palm that is the bees-knees for our boy.

It is indeed odd that the move can be charged but doesn't gain any kind of safety nor can it be cancelled, but we still might be able to use it from behind an EX Klone in the corner against someone that likes to jump a lot.



Other than that, it's becoming increasingly clear that Polar Palm is truly an excellent move for Sub-Zero to have and is the next best thing we could have gotten after a 29-frame Ice Ball.

Yeah the Ex variant does indeed open up alot of different avenues of kameo synergy and setup, as you showed with janet as well as having benefcial combo damage scaling.

The use of meterless damage is a bit offset by the rather strangely technical execution requierment

 

[OldManFGC]

Its got that 90s/00s fighter vibe of "oh this would be cool" and then dropped into the game and never properly developed. Except it's extra weird given they've just...gone in circles patching around it multiple times.

I wish we could get some answers as to why it's the way it is. I feel like you didn't need to have polar palm at all if you just made vapors a bit better, and then removed its full screen tracking or something? It's just so damn odd.

I hear you but I wouldn't want to lose the tracking on Vapors since it is really useful for the two things I mentioned.

 

[OldManFGC]

The freez duration of polar palm is either directly tied to how long you hold the button or it works by break points, if its the latter then i guess its placebo but i do find it noticeably easier to land when i do the hold vs just letting go. I agree linking that and getting the clone to hit is rather tight and this games input and non existent buffer system is partly to blame why certain things are just super inconsistent to execute and they border impractical.

Yeah its the range of 21 thats the issue, if you are hitting it at near max ranges the pushback of the seconde hit makes it impossible to land the clone as the micro dash done before f12xx clone doesnt then give you enoguh distance to land clone and dashing further makes f12 whiff.

I agree that it would make sense for the amount you charge Polar Palm to directly affect how long they are frozen, but as far as I can tell, there are only two options: regular, where they breakout fast, and full charge, which is around the same length as a Klone. I could be wrong about that though and hopefully I am!