Guide Sub VS Ermac

[Metzos]

agreed.

but what if you attempt to do anything else? i'll already be on the other side. That's my point... there really isn't a HUGE negative. I see it offline ALL the time. There is more upside to landing the cross up than for you to "guess" if i'm going to jump or not.

Plus.. you have to pretty much commit to once again... doing a d1 to catch the cross up, which in turn limits your own options. Obviously if I jump everytime i'm taking guess work out. Yes I get that.
But just as you can condition me to not jump... I can condition you to feel safe and do something other than an AA followup... and there lies the problem with d3.

Agreed, i m just pointing out on how Ermac should be played. He is based on reads and good reactions, thats the point. Even if you dont do anything i can just do another d3 or d4, or as i have said before, do nothing as well. Doing d1 to catch a cross-up does not limit my options if it is successful though. And even if it doesnt work i m still safe and cannot be punished. Thats the core design of this character imo. And this is the reason he is almost unique in MK9. He is not "brain-dead" like the other zoners. You have to count every move you make and act accordingly to what your opponent does. On the highest lvl, Ermac can pretty much check the entire cast from almost full screen, with some exceptions ofc (see Freddy, Raiden, Reptile, Baraka and Kenshi, when he has bars), and punish heavily every mistake his opponent does, whiffed or blocked attacks. You do something stupid and half of your life is gone. You have to respect that man. Also he is not on Scorpions risk level, in his normals and his specials as well.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Agreed, i m just pointing out on how Ermac should be played. He is based on reads and good reactions, thats the point. .

This is why we can't really agree on anything... because BOTH characters rely heavily on these two things. Shrug.

I was just trying to point out some things that he wasn't doing that he could mix into his game. I'll always think Ermac has some type of advantage in this MU... that is almost non debatable.

its why I use Ermac against SZ ... LOL

 

[Metzos]

This is why we can't really agree on anything... because BOTH characters rely heavily on these two things. Shrug.

I was just trying to point out some things that he wasn't doing that he could mix into his game. I'll always think Ermac has some type of advantage in this MU... that is almost non debatable.

its why I use Ermac against SZ ... LOL

Well, discussions arent bad, when they are productive man . For MU's like these though, in the end its up to the player imo.

 

[Qwark28]

214 is bad risk reward for sub

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

214 is bad risk reward for sub

there is no risk...

there is def. no more risk than using 212 clone. Especially once you establish 212clone you cause hesitation with 214.

Doing the same thing over and over will give away tendencies and let someone develop an easy strategy.... whereas if you keep them on their toes... they won't always react as they should.

Basic concept of any fighting game.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Keep cloning midscreen and watch the TKP punishes all day...

what a great strategy.

 

[Espio]

214 clone is not -9. It is at least -24.

Only way to get a safe clone is off d4 clone and 212 clone. The lower sz's hitbox, the less recovery.

TKP also chips once.

Wait...if someone clones after 2,1,4 they're at -24?

Does that mean if you have a projectile or other option that comes out at less than 24 frames you can get it out freely for chip/meter or am I misunderstanding? I won't shift this too off topic, but I'm just curious.

 

[Qwark28]

there is no risk...

there is def. no more risk than using 212 clone. Especially once you establish 212clone you cause hesitation with 214.

Doing the same thing over and over will give away tendencies and let someone develop an easy strategy.... whereas if you keep them on their toes... they won't always react as they should.

Basic concept of any fighting game.

never said always do 212 clone like brady and never switch it up

there is more risk because you put yourself in a situation where ermac has much more to gain than sub

id rather take the throw than 214 or even another 212 after which i risk nothing rather than put myself in a more like to be harmful situation

i just hope you never play a high lvl ermac offline

Keep cloning midscreen and watch the TKP punishes all day...

what a great strategy.

who said that?

 

[Playpal]

Wait...if someone clones after 2,1,4 they're at -24?

Does that mean if you have a projectile or other option that comes out at less than 24 frames you can get it out freely for chip/meter or am I misunderstanding? I won't shift this too off topic, but I'm just curious.

Yes, alot of characters can punish 214 and 224 (which is also -24).

Rain can punish with lightning, scorpion can punish with spear, jade can punish with ex flash kick probably.

 

[Seapeople]

Yes, alot of characters can punish 214 and 224 (which is also -24).

Rain can punish with lightning, scorpion can punish with spear, jade can punish with ex flash kick probably.

It's only -18 but still pretty punishable.

 

[Playpal]

It's only -17 but still pretty punishable.

I've had both been punished by rain's lightning. They're both (minimum) -24.

 

[Qwark28]

Yes, alot of characters can punish 214 and 224 (which is also -24).

Rain can punish with lightning, scorpion can punish with spear, jade can punish with ex flash kick probably.

no

scorp can armour through 212 with spear and can spear all other strings? no that doesnt sound likke a 5 5

account for distance traveled and youll see, rain cant punish his clone blockstrings

 

[Playpal]

no

scorp can armour through 212 with spear and can spear all other strings? no that doesnt sound likke a 5 5

account for distance traveled and youll see, rain cant punish his clone blockstrings

Distance has nothing to do with the time it takes for lightning to hit you. It is not your conventional fireball.

I've asked Somberness this and he confirmed it in the frame data thread. It got wiped out though when TYM was down for a while.

And from experience playing GamerBlake90, scorpion can punish 214 ice clone.

 

[Seapeople]

I've had both been punished by rain's lightning. They're both (minimum) -24.

That's interesting, I don't know then.
Maybe Somberness could explain what causes the change

 

[Qwark28]

Distance has nothing to do with the time it takes for lightning to hit you. It is not your conventional fireball.

I've asked Somberness this and he confirmed it in the frame data thread. It got wiped out though when TYM was down for a while.

And from experience playing GamerBlake90, scorpion can punish 214 ice clone.

distance as in the spear.

and im guessing you were playing him online?

 

[GamerBlake90]

And from experience playing GamerBlake90, scorpion can punish 214 ice clone.

Indeed. As soon as you see the clone materialize, throw that spear...or if you're not confident in that punish, you can use Hellfire. Rain can also punish with his Lightning. And I'm sure there are a few other characters with specials that do the job.

 

[Playpal]

distance as in the spear.

and im guessing you were playing him online?

Yes I was.

 

[Qwark28]

Yes I was.

thats probably why.

otherwise this isnt an even matchup

 

[Playpal]

thats probably why.

otherwise this isnt an even matchup

What are you talking about? If anything, it would be harder for scorpion to punish this online, and I didn't say anything about even match ups.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I can tell you though... against Rain and Scorpion and Ermac who see 214 and think "YES i'm going to punish this" and you don't clone... they die.

Then they hesitate.. you slip the clone out... and they throw a late projectile... exslide into clone. 30%

The fact I had to point this out troubles me. 214 sets up other options.
214 clone is -18 just like 224 clone. cancel advt. of 20 and the clone duration is ~38.

 

[Playpal]

The fact I had to point this out troubles me. 214 sets up other options.
214 clone is -18 just like 224 clone. cancel advt. of 20 and the clone duration is ~38.

Assuming conventional special cancelling works the same as clone cancelling, 214 clone is still not -18. The higher your hitbox, the longer the recovery for clone.

 

[Qwark28]

I can tell you though... against Rain and Scorpion and Ermac who see 214 and think "YES i'm going to punish this" and you don't clone... they die.

Then they hesitate.. you slip the clone out... and they throw a late projectile... exslide into clone. 30%

The fact I had to point this out troubles me. 214 sets up other options.
214 clone is -18 just like 224 clone. cancel advt. of 20 and the clone duration is ~38.

214 cant be punished, period, it takes frames for the spear to cancel

you stll dont get how its easy as fuck to confirm the clones out?

its been said rains lightning is 24f, its its -18 then obviously it cant be punished.

playpal, i didnt say you said anything.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Assuming conventional special cancelling works the same as clone cancelling, 214 clone is still not -18. The higher your hitbox, the longer the recovery for clone.

what are you talking about? I am seriously confused

 

[Playpal]

what are you talking about? I am seriously confused

The number in the frame data thread has it as ~38. This is because it changes depending on your hitbox. When you do 214 ice clone, you can be punished by moves slower than 18 frames, IE. rain's lightning.

This is assuming that cancelling into a clone works the same as cancelling into other specials, like kabal's ndc. It probably does, but the frame data for sz before was different which made me think otherwise.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

214 cant be punished, period, it takes frames for the spear to cancel

you stll dont get how its easy as fuck to confirm the clones out?

its been said rains lightning is 24f, its its -18 then obviously it cant be punished.

playpal, i didnt say you said anything.

you don't read my posts all the way through.... or you don't understand the concept i'm putting across.

214 clone can be punished. 214 cannot. The mix-up comes from the fact that they opponent has to be ON POINT to punish the clone version... because of the space and the quickness of their said move. Think like its Reptiles dash. Here we are... 2 years later... and people STILL miss this punish... because you sort of have to be looking for it. Same applies here.
Then... when you think they are going to try it... you don't clone, block the highly unsafe move they just tossed out and get a combo of your own. Simply because you forced them to be "on point".

This isn't a theory... this is fact. You can watch countless tourney matches where people miss the punish because they were caught off guard. That is the entire point.