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Guide Sub VS Ermac

Error

DF2+R2
LOL why would you uppercut on a d3 hit without a read? pls... theory fighting at its FINEST.
It doesn't have to be on read, the uppercut has to be input a little late or else it whiffs, and jumping after a d3 perfectly sets up Ermac's uppercut AA. But whatever, it seems your only rebuttal for everything is "LOL THEORYFIGHTING"
 

Error

DF2+R2
exactly my point.. if you start uppercutting every time after d3... you are in just as much trouble of a full combo as I am. I can just duck and punish.
I mean I have to input the uppercut when you're almost halfway through your jump arc or else my uppercut won't hit you out the the air.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
LOL why would you uppercut on a d3 hit without a read? pls... theory fighting at its FINEST.

you guys can theory fight me all you want... but you won't be confirming d3 on hit/block anyway... which means you're just begging for me to full combo your uppercut whiff.

Theory fighting is 90% why i stopped giving advice here. A) no one really listens. B) it gets buried in negativity C) you can theory fight any situation.

I'm simply giving you WHAT I SEE happen to other Ermac players when they play in tourney.

If you're cloning midscreen you're playing the MU wrong.
If you aren't constantly pressuring and mixing up your neutral strings, you're doing it wrong.
If you aren't making him take risks by using TKP or even TKLift not at max range... you're doing it wrong.
If you don't understand why 214 is terrific against him... then you really need to re-evaluate how you play the matchup.

If you can't push Ermac to the corner without cloning every chance you get... you'll die. Simple as that. Quit being scared to use d4 into d4 into a block string. Use Jk's into throws to setup JK into f4.

The MU sucks trying to navigate that Max TKP range. once inside it... you have a ton of options. Heck.. you can even make reads on the TKP and throw ice balls to keep him honest. The entire goal is to make him fear using his TKP relentlessly. Easiest way is to stay within max range, and not freaking get hit by it.
SMH im not even gonna bother anymore, basic logic dictates valid reasons for arguements, its obvious youve never played a high lvl ermac if you're talking like that about his tools.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
exactly my point.. if you start uppercutting every time after d3... you are in just as much trouble of a full combo as I am. I can just duck and punish.
A good Ermac will NEVER use uppercut in your face man. Error meant at sweep range i believe. If you try to jump over Ermac at that range, uppercut is 99% guaranteed. Also Qwark is not theory fighting at all. We play this MU every weekend, so he knows what he is talking about. Bottom line is, SZ needs A LOT of patience to win this MU, otherwise he is screwed.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
LOL why would you uppercut on a d3 hit without a read? pls... theory fighting at its FINEST.

you guys can theory fight me all you want... but you won't be confirming d3 on hit/block anyway... which means you're just begging for me to full combo your uppercut whiff.

Theory fighting is 90% why i stopped giving advice here. A) no one really listens. B) it gets buried in negativity C) you can theory fight any situation.

I'm simply giving you WHAT I SEE happen to other Ermac players when they play in tourney.

If you're cloning midscreen you're playing the MU wrong.
If you aren't constantly pressuring and mixing up your neutral strings, you're doing it wrong.
If you aren't making him take risks by using TKP or even TKLift not at max range... you're doing it wrong.
If you don't understand why 214 is terrific against him... then you really need to re-evaluate how you play the matchup.

If you can't push Ermac to the corner without cloning every chance you get... you'll die. Simple as that. Quit being scared to use d4 into d4 into a block string. Use Jk's into throws to setup JK into f4.

The MU sucks trying to navigate that Max TKP range. once inside it... you have a ton of options. Heck.. you can even make reads on the TKP and throw ice balls to keep him honest. The entire goal is to make him fear using his TKP relentlessly. Easiest way is to stay within max range, and not freaking get hit by it.
I would like to read your MU break down plz, cause from what i ve read in this post, your Ermac opponents must not have very good xp of the MU. I will agree though that cloning mid screen and even full screen is wrong. Other than that i need some explanation plz. How is he going to pressure me , when first, he needs to break my zoning. So, my first question is: How is he going to break my zoning. Second question: Why in the blue hell am i going to use TKP or TKS outside my safe spot ?! I will only do that if i have a breaker, or if i m sure it will connect. 214 is at -9f which means i can dash in and d4, throw, 121 or d1 to check him. Even if he tries to jump d4, standing 1 or d1 will catch him on air and from there i have a free lift combo and send him full screen again. So no. 21, 212 mix ups only. Not naked 214's. Also as for the corner. Ermac will not just stand there spamming TKP's and down pokes man. Dash in and throws, dash in F4, dash in U4, which will destroy your d4 pressure, simply because it has low crush active frames from the beginning and it basically makes Ermac immune to down pokes, F2 frame traps etc. Jumping against him is also out of the question ofc. Same applies for Ermac. I dont need to jump to get my dmg going. I can just chip you to death and when we reach the corner i can just do a reverse throw, and boom, you are in the corner, where you cant do absolutely nothing against Ermac's corner zoning, except EX slide, which can be baited.

So, how would you play the MU when you are at:

1st Full screen: ?

2nd Mid screen: ?

3rd Up close: ?

Post edited.
 
Your theory fu is strong.
I clearly see how you fight this matchup and its wrong. If you're cloning mid screen..... you're going to lose.
You can push anyone to the corner without clone. Don't rely on the clone to do your dirty work. You have other great tools.

That is all the rest i'm going to really say... When you worry about too many things you lose. D3 on hit is cross up everytime. its only like +3 which gives ermac NOTHING after it.

I honestly don't know what else to tell you. Adapt or keep dying
Can't Ermac just do a 1 to AA the cross up
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I would like to read your MU break down plz, cause from what i ve read in this post, your Ermac opponents must not have very good xp of the MU. I will agree though that cloning mid screen and even full screen is wrong. Other than that i need some explanation plz. How is he going to pressure me , when first, he needs to break my zoning. So, my first question is: How is he going to break my zoning. Second question: Why in the blue hell am i going to use TKP or TKS outside my safe spot ?! I will only do that if i have a breaker, or if i m sure it will connect. 214 is at -9f which means i can dash in and d4, throw, 121 or d1 to check him. Even if he tries to jump d4, standing 1 or d1 will catch him on air and from there i have a free lift combo and send him full screen again. So no. 21, 212 mix ups only. Not naked 214's. Also as for the corner. Ermac will not just stand there spamming TKP's and down pokes man. Dash in and throws, dash in F4, dash in U4, which will destroy your d4 pressure, simply because it has low crush active frames from the beginning and it basically makes Ermac immune to down pokes, F2 frame traps etc. Jumping against him is also out of the question ofc. Same applies for Ermac. I dont need to jump to get my dmg going. I can just chip you to death and when we reach the corner i can just do a reverse throw, and boom, you are in the corner, where you cant do absolutely nothing against Ermac's corner zoning, except EX slide, which can be baited.

So, how would you play the MU when you are at:

1st Full screen: ?

2nd Mid screen: ?

3rd Up close: ?

Post edited.
this is all just thoery fighting. after 214 you HAVE to commit to something if you dash in, which by the way negates all the advantage you previously had. So my d4 will beat EVERY option you toss out if you dash in. So I can basically sit there and watch you and decide what i'm going to do... because I can react to you now. You can try and check me all you want, but the dash eats up most of the -9 i'm at, and no offense... but Ermac players see that string and salivate at the thought of punishing the clone and hesitate. It is sort of like reptiles dash... you have to anticipate and move quickly... or you lose the advantage. Same thing with your f2 frametrap. It causes pushback so that I can sit there and watch what you do... +2 isn't anything for Ermac, because he only gets pokes off of it, or a tick throw.

Ermac is a lot like SZ in that you have to make reads and decisions very quickly.

Breaking Ermacs zoning is not that big of a deal... just dash blocking is fine. Yes, he has the advantage in that he controls that area with a high degree. But he's like -13 or something... so i get a full dash to move forward and close distance. Its not kenshi, where he's 0 on block dude.

I mean... i read this... and the same could be said about your SZ opponents not using SZ's tools to their max as well. Or just common fundamentals. If they can't break Ermacs zoning... i don't know what to tell them. Pressuring Ermac is how you kill him. Thats why JC and Sonya just rape his tits. Once they touch him... he can't do shit but hope to guess right and poke... or catch them off guard with a throw. High risk ... low reward.
Same goes with SZ.. Once i'm in... i have to bully and bait. I have two pokes that are superior to anything you can toss out in that range. Clone and d4. To punish clone, you have to be unsafe, and you can't punish d4 period. Thats a fact. No theory there.

In any case... my breakdown is mine. I know what works, I do it. Just because I think outside the box a bit doesn't mean i'm wrong in the least. Basically, i'm tired of being called out for what works. These strats work. In a MU like this... where distance negates the best tools... you can't really have a breakdown.
You just need to have a game plan.

I will say this. I think Ermac has a slight advantage in the MU, but nothing that cannot be overcome.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
A good Ermac will NEVER use uppercut in your face man. Error meant at sweep range i believe. If you try to jump over Ermac at that range, uppercut is 99% guaranteed. Also Qwark is not theory fighting at all. We play this MU every weekend, so he knows what he is talking about. Bottom line is, SZ needs A LOT of patience to win this MU, otherwise he is screwed.
story of SZ's life man.

Patience and reads.

BTW... you're proving my point on the d3 thing and such. Why would Ermac ever uppercut after a d3 (which was my scenario to begin with).
I digress.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
ok so let me get this straight

cant confirm a poke in the long ass duration of 4 in 214

a 2 step dash eats up 9f

ermacs TKP on block is -13 which isnt and kenshis charge is 0 unless you dont mean charge but B2 which you obviously cant compare

F2 is +5 actually

theory fighting when 2 high lvl players play it every damn week

not gonna argue vs YOUR theory fighting anymore, post all you like, not even knowing his basic frame data yet branding this theory fighting is pretty ignorant.
 

xQUANTUMx

Twitter: @xxQUANTUM
Haven't had a chance to play zaf's ermac yet (and I'm by no means a high level sub) but ill weigh in once I do
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
story of SZ's life man.

Patience and reads.

BTW... you're proving my point on the d3 thing and such. Why would Ermac ever uppercut after a d3 (which was my scenario to begin with).
I digress.
I meant if you attempted a jump after you were hit by Ermac's d3. Wasnt that the scenario you presented in the first place, or am i wrong ?
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
this is all just thoery fighting. after 214 you HAVE to commit to something if you dash in, which by the way negates all the advantage you previously had. So my d4 will beat EVERY option you toss out if you dash in. So I can basically sit there and watch you and decide what i'm going to do... because I can react to you now. You can try and check me all you want, but the dash eats up most of the -9 i'm at, and no offense... but Ermac players see that string and salivate at the thought of punishing the clone and hesitate. It is sort of like reptiles dash... you have to anticipate and move quickly... or you lose the advantage. Same thing with your f2 frametrap. It causes pushback so that I can sit there and watch what you do... +2 isn't anything for Ermac, because he only gets pokes off of it, or a tick throw.

Ermac is a lot like SZ in that you have to make reads and decisions very quickly.

Breaking Ermacs zoning is not that big of a deal... just dash blocking is fine. Yes, he has the advantage in that he controls that area with a high degree. But he's like -13 or something... so i get a full dash to move forward and close distance. Its not kenshi, where he's 0 on block dude.

I mean... i read this... and the same could be said about your SZ opponents not using SZ's tools to their max as well. Or just common fundamentals. If they can't break Ermacs zoning... i don't know what to tell them. Pressuring Ermac is how you kill him. Thats why JC and Sonya just rape his tits. Once they touch him... he can't do shit but hope to guess right and poke... or catch them off guard with a throw. High risk ... low reward.
Same goes with SZ.. Once i'm in... i have to bully and bait. I have two pokes that are superior to anything you can toss out in that range. Clone and d4. To punish clone, you have to be unsafe, and you can't punish d4 period. Thats a fact. No theory there.

In any case... my breakdown is mine. I know what works, I do it. Just because I think outside the box a bit doesn't mean i'm wrong in the least. Basically, i'm tired of being called out for what works. These strats work. In a MU like this... where distance negates the best tools... you can't really have a breakdown.
You just need to have a game plan.

I will say this. I think Ermac has a slight advantage in the MU, but nothing that cannot be overcome.
This is not theory fighting man. I would be speaking with theory facts if i didnt have any MU exp against SZ, and even then i dont do that. But i have been fighting him since day 1 of the game. After 214 you are at -9f, which means you wont have enough time to d4 and win against Ermac, except if Ermac goes for a normal that is above 15f and that wont happen. So are you saying to me that if you do a 214 on block and then you attempt to do a d4 you will win regardless ? Online yeah you ll win, but offline not a chance. I have a 7f d3 which on crouch opponents on hit its +5f man. I can pretty much do everything i want after that. I have an U4 which will destroy your d4, simply because, as i have said before, it has low crush active frames from the beginning of the move. Even if you dont do anything as you said and just stand there and anticipate my next move, i can just dash in and throw, down poke, pressure, etc etc, or i can just back dash and wait for you. You are not telling anything new here man, sorry. You still didnt answer to me how you are going to approach me. Dash block ? Yeah that will work if you are playing against CPU on easy mode man. Come on... Gimmie some facts here if you plz. I m not arguing with you, i m just curious on how you play the particular MU.

Post edited.
 

Metzos

You will BOW to me!
ok so let me get this straight

cant confirm a poke in the long ass duration of 4 in 214

a 2 step dash eats up 9f

ermacs TKP on block is -13 which isnt and kenshis charge is 0 unless you dont mean charge but B2 which you obviously cant compare

F2 is +5 actually

theory fighting when 2 high lvl players play it every damn week

not gonna argue vs YOUR theory fighting anymore, post all you like, not even knowing his basic frame data yet branding this theory fighting is pretty ignorant.
TKP is -17f on block Qwark.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
The point is, if you attempt a jump from that distance, you will get blown up big time, except if the Ermac player times the AA wrong.
agreed.

but what if you attempt to do anything else? i'll already be on the other side. That's my point... there really isn't a HUGE negative. I see it offline ALL the time. There is more upside to landing the cross up than for you to "guess" if i'm going to jump or not.

Plus.. you have to pretty much commit to once again... doing a d1 to catch the cross up, which in turn limits your own options. Obviously if I jump everytime i'm taking guess work out. Yes I get that.
But just as you can condition me to not jump... I can condition you to feel safe and do something other than an AA followup... and there lies the problem with d3.