Guide Sub VS Ermac

[Qwark28]

@Tom Brady
@LionHeart V1
@Seapeople
@STB CharlieMurphy
@STB Sgt Reed
@quantum mekanikz
@long ass name
@CptXecution
@Semi Evil Ryu
@Denzell
@cyusstrike
@Avalanche

This is a matchup where subzero needs a decent lifelead, he doesn't build that much meter while ermac does, he can't turtle out ermac forever, I feel this matchup is 6-4 no matter what anyone else says , I play it with Metzos every week.

You NEED good meter management and patience, if you're not patient, don't choose subzero in this matchup.

Here's a breakdown and a further analysis later on

212, the ONLY string to clone you can use, anything else he can TKP after the clone.

22 is still useful because ermac may attempt to jump a max range D4 considering you're limited to 21 and that won't reach him but you'll put yourself at -6.

You can't play footsies with ermac unless in sweep distance, you constantly need to make up for his TKP chip and keep pushing him in the corner, be aware that that will not always happen, ermac WILL throw you and switch sides.

If you're in the corner when he throws you and he's out then he can't throw fireballs due to ex slide. He CAN tele your iceballs still but runs a greater risk of being ex slid in the corner.

TKP- Used from max to mid range, anything more is asking to come dangerously close to D4 hit distance, if he's crouching for the D4 you can go for 212/throw/F4, do test him out first incase he actually D4's you while you think he's giving you a free blockstring.

it is also used to whiff punish anything you do, deadly in the corner because you can't run away from it, you play by his rules if you have no meter.

Most important thing, every time he TKP's you get closer to him and the corner.

Air blast- Used with jik to gain the life lead by baiting an AA and condition you to block after F2 on block, air blast on hit grants a free JiP, however subs 22 is good at beating jumpkicks.

F114- ermacs favourite string, he gets a jip on you, uses this bad boy and he's just outside sweep distance, do be careful about dashing in, he can read it and throw you, you'd be suprised just how much range a throw has when you dash into it.

31/2/throw- the mixup will always come after a JiP, otherwise you can crouch after 3 and D4.

Teleport- Used to tele your iceballs in case you get too greedy trying to force a trade.

What I do, get a lifelead and get the fuck out, he can't reach you with TKP and can't chip you with fireballs, you're backing into the corner out of which you can armour and put him in it on reaction to any bullshit, if ermac gets a good enough lifelead then you either corner him or quit the round because it's extremely difficult to regain it, if he manages to wear you down or change sides then you're already finished.

Thankfully, the only true problem in this matchup is the fact that he can get the lead easier, you defend it much better and finding yourself cornered is only good for you if you have the meter to spare.

What YOU need to do is THROW, you can not expect to cover the TKP and normals chip with the typical brady do d4 do 212 get out and back in again, you HAVE to throw to not only cover the chip taken but inflict some actual damage difference of your own.

METER MANAGEMENT

Meter is exclusively used for, from most important to least

Breaker= keeps huge damage off of you
Slide= eliminates most of ermacs options when near the corner or defending the lead
Xray= last resort to armour through a projectile

POKING

Thought ermacs D3 was useless on stand block? Think again...

ermacs d3 on standing hit is -2, so you of course see the - and D4 or D3 it if point blank, right?

No. 3 frames to crouch and 7/8 frames to D3/4 means that he's always faster than you, you have to block a second poke then D4 him while if the second hits you, he got you while crouched and gains standard d3 advantage, if on the other hand you catch him crouched you get a very virtual +3, basically useless.

Will add more tomorrow.

 

[Qwark28]

this is by far my most hated matchup, there is so much information you need to know because both chars have so many tools to counter each others

easily most cerebral matchup in the game

 

[Killphil]

The last time I said Ermac-Sub was 6-4 I got blown up for it. Now we wait, I guess. I did a very similar breakdown as well.

Edit: ^this was a LONG time ago, back in the game's infancy. My views have since changed.

 

[Qwark28]

The last time I said Ermac-Sub was 6-4 I got blown up for it. Now we wait, I guess. I did a very similar breakdown as well.

Edit: ^this was a LONG time ago, back in the game's infancy. My views have since changed.

the only reason i have it at those numbers is because subzero has to be much more on point than ermac has

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

214 is -9

no reason to clone midscreen


switch up your play style. Don't let stupid TKP force you into anything.

you can always d4 31 in the string.... so that limits what he can do that is safe.

gah... i'm so tired of writing the same thing over and over.

 

[Qwark28]

214 is -9

no reason to clone midscreen


switch up your play style. Don't let stupid TKP force you into anything.

you can always d4 31 in the string.... so that limits what he can do that is safe.

gah... i'm so tired of writing the same thing over and over.

except 214 is pretty much a free throw/string, what are you talking about, you need the clone in this matchup otherwise theres no wall to be put and no way to defend a lead.

don't let tkp force you into anything? when a move covers almost fullscreen and can check you anytime you better damn well respect it, basic fundamentals.

i have mentioned that, good luck finding an ermac throwing it out when its duckable though, the mixup is mainly off of JIP.

you need to play this matchup to understand it, theory fightings not gonna cut it.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

except 214 is pretty much a free throw/string, what are you talking about, you need the clone in this matchup otherwise theres no wall to be put and no way to defend a lead.

don't let tkp force you into anything? when a move covers almost fullscreen and can check you anytime you better damn well respect it, basic fundamentals.

i have mentioned that, good luck finding an ermac throwing it out when its duckable though, the mixup is mainly off of JIP.

you need to play this matchup to understand it, theory fightings not gonna cut it.

I do play this MU

2,1,4 is -9 with pushback. Unpunishable by Ermac.

TKP even at max range will only net him 4% chip (two times on block) before you are in his face.

You NEVER need to clone until you get him in the corner. Even when he jumps.... 2,2 is a better option because he can change trajectory with the air blast. You can bully and bait him with 2,1 and d4's.

the MU probably is still in Ermacs favor... but you have to mixup how you approach the character. Play the MU without cloning ever. That in itself will help you not rely on it so much, and keep you from eating random TKP's and Lifts.

If he hits you with a d3 and you're standing.... cross him up. He can't do anything about it unless him cancels off the d3 (which he won't 90% of the time).
SZ isn't trying to defend his lead in this one... because Ermac doesn't have armor... and eats 2 in crouch block. You're main goal is to bully the shit out of him as best you can to force him into unsafe situations.

I think you've let Metzo's get in your dome a bit.

 

[Lord Beef]

I agree. The combination of his hit box and lack of armor makes this an great match to play aggressive. Now, it's inherently more risky as if you happen to eat that random lift, he's got that fucking ridiculous damage. But you're not keeping him out, its the other way around. If you're focused on keeping ermac out, you're only opening yourself up to his iaAB/tele/safe jump shenanigans. Don't give this bastard any room to breathe. Plus not cloning midscreen gives you a 2f AA if you need it, but 22 is really awesome for this as well, as murphy stated.

I'm not trying to call anyone out on how they play the MU either, don't get me wrong. But I play a very good ermac in my offline scene, and playing turtle was getting me blown up more often than not. Whether it be by him using the cooldown of midscreen clones against me or me being an idiot and throwing ice, eating a tele then subsequent safe jump into his god damn frame adv./throw mixups. Then I said....wtf am I doing? Eat some chip, land a d4 and I'm in.

My synopsis is that it is indeed in ermac's favor simply because of his damage and that damn push, it controls the match midscreen. But once he's in the corner it's game over man. It's almost as bad as when scorpion is in the corner lol.

I like these threads, Qwark, its great discussion. Ill work on some soon, I just have been re-evaluating some of my MU approaches so some of my info/opinions are abit outdated or fragmented. But you're not alone bro! These threads are great.

 

[Qwark28]

I do play this MU

2,1,4 is -9 with pushback. Unpunishable by Ermac.

TKP even at max range will only net him 4% chip (two times on block) before you are in his face.

You NEVER need to clone until you get him in the corner. Even when he jumps.... 2,2 is a better option because he can change trajectory with the air blast. You can bully and bait him with 2,1 and d4's.

the MU probably is still in Ermacs favor... but you have to mixup how you approach the character. Play the MU without cloning ever. That in itself will help you not rely on it so much, and keep you from eating random TKP's and Lifts.

If he hits you with a d3 and you're standing.... cross him up. He can't do anything about it unless him cancels off the d3 (which he won't 90% of the time).
SZ isn't trying to defend his lead in this one... because Ermac doesn't have armor... and eats 2 in crouch block. You're main goal is to bully the shit out of him as best you can to force him into unsafe situations.

I think you've let Metzo's get in your dome a bit.

if you dont clone youre not pushing him in the corner, just the fact he can jump at you with airblast at his disposal is something to consider, not even mentioning the 214 pushback isnt that big

ermac will NEVER tkp from such a distance unless on a read because hes - and you can get in his face again, 212 clone and any pushback gets you in a perfect position to turtle, one step away from max tkp range

this is why i say high lvl, to avoid things like saying he can tkp twice before youre in his face, tkp isnt an unpunishable iceball from a distance man, he will never use tkp just to use it, tkp is used to punish movement and whiffs as well as to check you anytime he wants, any ermac who tkps like mad will get blown to hell, maybe thats why you have no trouble getting in, spamming tkp is not how ermacs played.

after a d3 there are 2 things ermac will do, ermac, not metzos.

d3 again to get out of normal and mid range D4 range

or d3 and back off because theres a fair distance,

ignoring that, ermac has a godlike D1 that catches crossups like cages f3 catches faces, eat a 35% and youre out again, not even mentioning that if you dont have the lead you're switching sides.

to end this, -9 when all ermac has to do is check you with a small dash to throw/121 or even F2, you're gonna clone the f2? you just got yourself out and maybe tkped later on, using the same clone you thought not to use.

and i never said not to use 22 as anti air, i said to be wary of his air blast.

@beef clone cooldown? why are you in tkp distance and/or throwing out iceballs? you cant compare rushdown to turtling when youre turtling him with free entry passes

im really not trying to be a dick but theres a difference between very good and one of the best when it comes to a zoner with so many diff tools

 

[Qwark28]

one more thing about D4

max range D4= must be dash 22'd = -6

mid range D4= ermacs long d3 catches you crouching and gets full advantage

FYI id have this 5-5 if you could use 22xx

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Your theory fu is strong.
I clearly see how you fight this matchup and its wrong. If you're cloning mid screen..... you're going to lose.
You can push anyone to the corner without clone. Don't rely on the clone to do your dirty work. You have other great tools.

That is all the rest i'm going to really say... When you worry about too many things you lose. D3 on hit is cross up everytime. its only like +3 which gives ermac NOTHING after it.

I honestly don't know what else to tell you. Adapt or keep dying

 

[Qwark28]

Your theory fu is strong.
I clearly see how you fight this matchup and its wrong. If you're cloning mid screen..... you're going to lose.
You can push anyone to the corner without clone. Don't rely on the clone to do your dirty work. You have other great tools.

That is all the rest i'm going to really say... When you worry about too many things you lose. D3 on hit is cross up everytime. its only like +3 which gives ermac NOTHING after it.

I honestly don't know what else to tell you. Adapt or keep dying

his d3 is -2 on hit and +7 on crouch hit, cross him up and switch sides, how do you get him to the cornr now when he outchips you?

if you wanna challenge my view then do so with arguements, not just " im not gonna say anything else", i respect arguements, worry about too many things is actually knowing your opponents tools.

 

[Qwark28]

this is matchup discussion, not say my view yet not support it, im providing arguements and receiving unsupported facts man

 

[Playpal]

214 clone is not -9. It is at least -24.

Only way to get a safe clone is off d4 clone and 212 clone. The lower sz's hitbox, the less recovery.

TKP also chips once.

 

[Qwark28]

214 clone is not -9. It is at least -24.

Only way to get a safe clone is off d4 clone and 212 clone. The lower sz's hitbox, the less recovery.

TKP also chips once.

he means naked 214

 

[Lord Beef]

@beef clone cooldown? why are you in tkp distance and/or throwing out iceballs? you cant compare rushdown to turtling when youre turtling him with free entry passes

LoL, that was a reference to how I previously played the match-up, not how I play it now. Kinda lining out my thought process as to why I started playing this match aggressively while not cloning midscreen. It was simply an example of something I had to look at differently. Its just like any MU, if you're not cloning correctly, that shit is gonna get timed-out by the opponent and capitalized on, that's the only reason I brought it up.

 

[Qwark28]

LoL, that was a reference to how I previously played the match-up, not how I play it now. Kinda lining out my thought process as to why I started playing this match aggressively while not cloning midscreen. It was simply an example of something I had to look at differently. Its just like any MU, if you're not cloning correctly, that shit is gonna get timed-out by the opponent and capitalized on, that's the only reason I brought it up.

league of legends was a reference to how you previously played the matchup???

stalling has less room for error because you only have one or two shots at defending some little life, rushdown is easier, try playing it like i say now that youre more comfortable and see how it goes

of course i assume that you will clone perfectly, otherwise its human factor fuckups

 

[Playpal]

Why would you just do a 214? That's a free throw almost. You're better off doing 212 ice clone, than ex slide to check the tkp.

I don't know if ex slide will throw him into the clone though, I think the TKP animation moves his hitbox forward and fucks up the spacing.

 

[Lord Beef]

league of legends was a reference to how you previously played the matchup???

 

[Seapeople]

Why would you just do a 214? That's a free throw almost. You're better off doing 212 ice clone, than ex slide to check the tkp.

I don't know if ex slide will throw him into the clone though, I think the TKP animation moves his hitbox forward and fucks up the spacing.

Raw 214 can be really good. There's barely anything in the game that can punish it, and to get free pressure or a throw attempt you have to commit to dashing in which can get you frozen by the clone. If the other player likes to immediately start throwing projectiles after 214~clone, you can just use 214 and then jump in for a full combo or dash up and d4....Sounds risky but it actually works when used at the right times. For some reason people really like to jump after raw 214 which you can AA very easily.

The threat of the clone is the biggest thing that makes it useful. The biggest reason to use it against Ermac is to get him to stop punishing your 214~clone with a full combo

 

[Qwark28]

Raw 214 can be really good. There's barely anything in the game that can punish it, and to get free pressure or a throw attempt you have to commit to dashing in which can get you frozen by the clone. If the other player likes to immediately start throwing projectiles after 214~clone, you can just use 214 and then jump in for a full combo or dash up and d4....Sounds risky but it actually works when used at the right times. For some reason people really like to jump after raw 214 which you can AA very easily.

The threat of the clone is the biggest thing that makes it useful. The biggest reason to use it against Ermac is to get him to stop punishing your 214~clone with a full combo

very small dash, not a regular one.

214 clone is punishable by tkp, not projectiles, you cant jump it after 214

not to mention that if you do jump youre losing way more than youre gaining

 

[Seapeople]

very small dash, not a regular one.

214 clone is punishable by tkp, not projectiles, you cant jump it after 214

not to mention that if you do jump youre losing way more than youre gaining

If you do a small dash to confirm whether or not the clone came out I'm pretty sure you're not in range for a lot of pressure options other than pokes. Either way it gets you off of immediately zoning which is the important thing.

I wasn't talking about Ermac specifically about jumping after 214. He's definitely not a character you would do that against.

 

[Qwark28]

If you do a small dash to confirm whether or not the clone came out I'm pretty sure you're not in range for a lot of pressure options other than pokes. Either way it gets you off of immediately zoning which is the important thing.

I wasn't talking about Ermac specifically about jumping after 214. He's definitely not a character you would do that against.

his throw has huge range, its very easy to confirm whether or not theres a clone considering the duration of 4 in 214

point is, ermac wont attempt to zone at so close range, hell play footsies and he out footsies you when he doesnt have to come in

 

[Error]

If he hits you with a d3 and you're standing.... cross him up.

Please do, we promise we won't uppercut you for 45%

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Please do, we promise we won't uppercut you for 45%

LOL why would you uppercut on a d3 hit without a read? pls... theory fighting at its FINEST.

you guys can theory fight me all you want... but you won't be confirming d3 on hit/block anyway... which means you're just begging for me to full combo your uppercut whiff.

Theory fighting is 90% why i stopped giving advice here. A) no one really listens. B) it gets buried in negativity C) you can theory fight any situation.

I'm simply giving you WHAT I SEE happen to other Ermac players when they play in tourney.

If you're cloning midscreen you're playing the MU wrong.
If you aren't constantly pressuring and mixing up your neutral strings, you're doing it wrong.
If you aren't making him take risks by using TKP or even TKLift not at max range... you're doing it wrong.
If you don't understand why 214 is terrific against him... then you really need to re-evaluate how you play the matchup.

If you can't push Ermac to the corner without cloning every chance you get... you'll die. Simple as that. Quit being scared to use d4 into d4 into a block string. Use Jk's into throws to setup JK into f4.

The MU sucks trying to navigate that Max TKP range. once inside it... you have a ton of options. Heck.. you can even make reads on the TKP and throw ice balls to keep him honest. The entire goal is to make him fear using his TKP relentlessly. Easiest way is to stay within max range, and not freaking get hit by it.