Strategy - Hat Trick Straight Hat Trap Cancel Frame Data

[Big Pampering]

Nobody said anything about being at advantage or it not being disadvantage. -5 without armor is disadvantage no matter how you look at it. You guys are missing the point. Throwing a poke out at -5 is just a way to let the opponent know that for them throwing out a 17-18 frame move isnt guaranteed. Its a conditioning tool, not something to abuse or even use that much, but we shouldnt pretend like its not part of the -3 -5 metagame.

 

[Youphemism]

Alright I've stickied this thread as I feel it's very useful information for Hat Trick players and people fighting it. Shame it's received no significant buffs

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

So apparently there was some change in how fast we do the call backs. Can get an update on that, at least check what's is the change at all ?

 

[Youphemism]

So apparently there was some change in how fast we do the call backs. Can get an update on that, at least check what's is the change at all ?

I haven't seen a change in it but I'll test them all again and see

 

[Eddy Wang]

I haven't seen a change in it but I'll test them all again and see

Youph, your data in some of those aren't accurate
112124, F3, B2, and B32 into trap are all -6 on block
s4 into trap is -5
s3 into trap is -3
B22 is -9
B12 is -10
B321 into trap is -9

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

Youph, your data in some of those aren't accurate
112124, F3, B2, and B32 into trap are all -6 on block
s4 into trap is -5
s3 into trap is -3
B22 is -9
B12 is -10
B321 into trap is -9

S3 -3 , that helps lol !. Fact is that from frame data point of view it's not even good. It's about developing a mental fear or hesitation in opponent.

I wonder what was reason behind Hattrick to be design without actual frame advantage, it feels like he is a experiment to Me. Looking at those all changes the general idea of maintaining the pressure here requires mental advantage over opponent. The entire idea is interesting...

 

[Eddy Wang]

S3 -3 , that helps lol !. Fact is that from frame data point of view it's not even good. It's about developing a mental fear or hesitation in opponent.

I wonder what was reason behind Hattrick to be design without actual frame advantage, it feels like he is a experiment to Me. Looking at those all changes the general idea of maintaining the pressure here requires mental advantage over opponent. The entire idea is interesting...

the idea is when they react to the trap if they miss interpret you get less minus so you're allowed to press buttons because they delayed.
but ppl aren't reacting to the traps, they are mashing D1s, throws and jump over, every time they see a string.

He definitely shouldn't be plus, but shouldn't be -6 either at those cancels, and shouldn't be -7 at every call back blocked.

at the very least i think KL should be -1 on those traps, so the average for everything else should be -3 to -6 or -8 around those numbers.

 

[Youphemism]

Youph, your data in some of those aren't accurate
112124, F3, B2, and B32 into trap are all -6 on block
s4 into trap is -5
s3 into trap is -3
B22 is -9
B12 is -10
B321 into trap is -9

Could you provide evidence instead of just asserting they're wrong?

None of 112124, F3, B2 or B32 cancelled into straight hat trap are -6 on block for sure. They're all safe.
4~straight trap is in fact safe so maybe that changed with the patch, but -5 I'd need a slow mo camera for to test reliably.
Hard to test 3~straight trap reliably without a slow-mo camera.
B22~straight trap and B321~straight trap are not -9 for sure.
B12~trap is -9 for sure also.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Could you provide evidence instead of just asserting they're wrong?

None of 112124, F3, B2 or B32 cancelled into straight hat trap are -6 on block for sure. They're all safe.
4~straight trap is in fact safe so maybe that changed with the patch, but -5 I'd need a slow mo camera for to test reliably.
Hard to test 3~straight trap reliably without a slow-mo camera.
B22~straight trap and B321~straight trap are not -9 for sure.
B12~trap is -9 for sure also.

Could you provide evidence instead of just asserting they're wrong?

None of 112124, F3, B2 or B32 cancelled into straight hat trap are -6 on block for sure. They're all safe.
4~straight trap is in fact safe so maybe that changed with the patch, but -5 I'd need a slow mo camera for to test reliably.
Hard to test 3~straight trap reliably without a slow-mo camera.
B22~straight trap and B321~straight trap are not -9 for sure.
B12~trap is -9 for sure also.

i used the cancel advantage method by summing startup, active, recover and then subtract by cancel and then sum with block advantage again, the result you get, you subtract with the hat trap recovery which is 25f:

112124
11 + 2 + 32 -20 = 25 - (block advantage of the same move which is -6) and you get 19f, subtract that with the hat trap recovery which is 25 and you will get -6

B22
18+3+42 = 30 you will get 33, minus the block sum with the block advantage of -17 and you and you get 16f, subtracted by the hat trap recovery of 25f and you will get -9.

I think i don't need to go into details about the rest, but you can make this and can also make sure, by doing the following, all traps that are over -9 can be punished in reversal by throw, it cannot be neutral crouched or use call back.

Call back as a special propriety its throw invincible, so if you do B22~ into hat trap and then call back as soon as possible on a very thigh window the opponent's reversal throw whiffs and call back punishes it.

I don't mean to blow you up or anything, i just though you should know, i used to think it was -5 too, but did a pile of tests yesterday in any string to see how minus he is.

The most useful ones are the ones where he is at -6, standing 4 is a special case os -5 but the situations to use this one are kinda rare.

Also, scorpion has a 6f poke, he can't punish it due that first active frame thing not being counted into the in game frame data, so execution wise his d1 is actually 7f, i though maybe that is why you though traps where -5 because they cannot be punished by 6f pokes, the rule of frame data in this game is just hella confusing.

 

[Youphemism]

i used the cancel advantage method by summing startup, active, recover and then subtract by cancel and then sum with block advantage again, the result you get, you subtract with the hat trap recovery which is 25f:

112124
11 + 2 + 32 -20 = 25 - (block advantage of the same move which is -6) and you get 19f, subtract that with the hat trap recovery which is 25 and you will get -6

B22
18+3+42 = 30 you will get 33, minus the block sum with the block advantage of -17 and you and you get 16f, subtracted by the hat trap recovery of 25f and you will get -9.

I think i don't need to go into details about the rest, but you can make this and can also make sure, by doing the following, all traps that are over -9 can be punished in reversal by throw, it cannot be neutral crouched or use call back.

Call back as a special propriety its throw invincible, so if you do B22~ into hat trap and then call back as soon as possible on a very thigh window the opponent's reversal throw whiffs and call back punishes it.

I don't mean to blow you up or anything, i just though you should know, i used to think it was -5 too, but did a pile of tests yesterday in any string to see how minus he is.

The most useful ones are the ones where he is at -6, standing 4 is a special case os -5 but the situations to use this one are kinda rare.

Also, scorpion has a 6f poke, he can't punish it due that first active frame thing not being counted into the in game frame data, so execution wise his d1 is actually 7f, i though maybe that is why you though traps where -5 because they cannot be punished by 6f pokes, the rule of frame data in this game is just hella confusing.

You do realise the in-game frame data is unreliable right? It's a bit harsh to assume it is and then flat out tell me I'm wrong just based on calculations without physical testing lol. I've actually tested all of these in-game (and have yet to get specific data for the new safe ones) against either reversal specials if they're punishable or against normals to test for trades if they're safe to get actual, reliable numbers based on more than just what are possibly wrong numbers. The ones I've said are for sure not what you're claiming are because I've actually tested them against reversals and those reversals haven't punished. So although the calculations you're doing might say B22~hat trap is -9, the game says otherwise.

I know other games do frame data differently but in MKX if a 6 frame reversal special punishes the move then it's -6 but a 6 frame normal won't punish it because you can't do a reversal normal. Reversals have the special property of triggering on the last frame of blockstun rather than after the last frame of blockstun. That's why 4~hat trap was -6, because Reptile's reversal ex slide could punish it even though Scorpion's 6 frame D1 couldn't