Match-Up Discussion - Sonya Blade Sonya Blade Matchup Thread

[Gankedddx]

bump

Sorry, I haven't been ignoring this, I just don't have enough experience going against good Takedas yet to really weigh in on the conversation.

I guess I can start by saying limit your jumps/dive kicks in this one like you said. His b12 has insane range and if you're in the air it'll catch you all day. The kunai mixup game is strong and usually what Takedas flock to from what I've seen on streams. I feel like you need a lot of patience on this one to catch him off guard even though there's little time to do it. Let me mess around in practice and get back to you, I'm a bit curious myself now haha.

 

[Sultani]

What to do against Cassie? Only thing I've figured out is to Parry B124 in between 2 and 4. I know how to block her and whatnot, but I struggle against her.

As for TG raiden, didn't read all of the OP, but you can parry all hits of F12B2 including the lightning from like 2/3 screen away.

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

I'm a big believer that cassie is just worse than Sonya in every way. She has better wake up options, but your offense vs. her offense is insanely in your favor.

People that have a hard time in the Cassie match up I feel aren't punishing everything they can. If you know her strings, and block everything right, then you have a free 50/50 afterwards. If you do nothing but trade 50/50's, you'll come out ahead because you have more dmg than she does.

However, you have the tools to get ahead! Cassie is free to your air game. Crossing over every wake up is free, and she can do nothing about it if the timing is right. Flip kick will whiff and get hit for a full punish (even EX), wake up rising kick whiffs and you can run in to punish, if she just blocks, then you get another free 50/50 to play into.

Don't bother trying to zone, you'll tend to lose the trades. Just stay up and in her face. Force trades, be consistent, make sure you make the most of opportunities and you shouldn't have too many problems. Is there a specific variation that's giving you trouble? @Sultani

 

[Sultani]

Spec Ops. I know how to defend the missile setups, but the problem I have is that Cassie players tend to just walk backwards and try to stay away from me. Closing the distance is where I have trouble, especially if the opponent throws a close missile which pretty much eliminates the possibility of pressuring. That's not a trade you want to make. Once I get pressure going and I'm in her face already and she can't do that, I agree it's heavily in my favor. I just feel it's very difficult if Cassie controls space properly with missiles. On knock downs I do cross over like that, and typically do a string into MS 1 if they block, confirm into MS 4 if the string hits. What to do after knocking her down or what to do from close range isn't a problem. It's more just being out played in neutral.

If the missile is about to hit me and I block it, cassie can just run in and use the block stun to initiate pressure.

The more I think about it, I'm not really doing anything "wrong," I'm just being out played.

 

[Gankedddx]

I'm a big believer that cassie is just worse than Sonya in every way. She has better wake up options, but your offense vs. her offense is insanely in your favor.

People that have a hard time in the Cassie match up I feel aren't punishing everything they can. If you know her strings, and block everything right, then you have a free 50/50 afterwards. If you do nothing but trade 50/50's, you'll come out ahead because you have more dmg than she does.

However, you have the tools to get ahead! Cassie is free to your air game. Crossing over every wake up is free, and she can do nothing about it if the timing is right. Flip kick will whiff and get hit for a full punish (even EX), wake up rising kick whiffs and you can run in to punish, if she just blocks, then you get another free 50/50 to play into.

Don't bother trying to zone, you'll tend to lose the trades. Just stay up and in her face. Force trades, be consistent, make sure you make the most of opportunities and you shouldn't have too many problems. Is there a specific variation that's giving you trouble? @Sultani

Added to OP under Cassie Cage (In general) and tagged you, thanks!

@shura30 I've been playing against my buddy's Takeda (Shirai Ryu) lately and have been seeing a few strategies. Give me another day or so and I'll type something up to help you possibly.

Spec Ops. I know how to defend the missile setups, but the problem I have is that Cassie players tend to just walk backwards and try to stay away from me. Closing the distance is where I have trouble, especially if the opponent throws a close missile which pretty much eliminates the possibility of pressuring. That's not a trade you want to make. Once I get pressure going and I'm in her face already and she can't do that, I agree it's heavily in my favor. I just feel it's very difficult if Cassie controls space properly with missiles. On knock downs I do cross over like that, and typically do a string into MS 1 if they block, confirm into MS 4 if the string hits. What to do after knocking her down or what to do from close range isn't a problem. It's more just being out played in neutral.

If the missile is about to hit me and I block it, cassie can just run in and use the block stun to initiate pressure.

The more I think about it, I'm not really doing anything "wrong," I'm just being out played.

I had a lot of problems pre-patch when f33 could still be cancelled, but after they removed that tech, I've had a much easier time using Sonya against her. I can't really speak on going against Spec-Ops though unfortunately. Sonya's tools just outplay Cassie now that the matchup is definitely in your favor. If you're playing as Covert Ops you can easily dive kick over her gun shots for a full punish (unless she does them in the air obviously). Parry works real well against Cassie since she'll be in your face a lot and chances are you'll catch her here and there. If you're feeling frisky and want to expend the bar for EX parry, go for it, but I'd rather hold onto it for EX arc kick to relieve corner pressure. Other than that, watch the wakeup nut punch and you should be fine. Hopefully I can get some testing on Spec-Ops though so I can understand what you're going through, I'll post stuff on it when I do.

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

Some of my friends are amazing at spacing as well; the rise of trip guarding (http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Super_Street_Fighter_IV/Game_Systems/Landing_Frames_Trip_Guard) for MKX is real, because anti-airs suck. As Sonya, this becomes AWESOME for us. Our jump in 1 is already INSANE, so we get stupid strong because of this, but if people are out spacing your jump-ins, throw out a late dive-kick (like almost at the end of your jump). You'll catch them mid string (which they thought was going to catch you) and full combo punish. If for some reason their string beats you, you'll eat like 5-15% depending on how high you were and how good they are at converting.

I think the special ops match up is actually where you can choose to zone. If you hit them with a few ring tosses, they're going to stop doing the point blank missile and try to come in on you or begin counter-zoning, which is a game I'm sure you've had to play before, and you can get your more traditional approaches. Also, your f2b1 string is awesome to get in from 3/4 screen or closer and gives you a safe approach (-6) or a hkd and set up options.

Sounds a lot like you're just getting out-spaced; I know my playstyle is hugely different between my training partners and people I play for the first time. My training partners know all my tendencies and habits, and space/punish me accordingly. Throw in a few tweaks into your gameplay (use the 121 string, it's +2 on block) or do something weird like armor arc kicking in. Variability in your play will give him a hard time, because it sounds like he's beating you on the mental game.

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

To @Gankedddx 's point, All of Sonya's wake ups are unsafe, and the parry requires a hard read. If you have a lot of practice against the player, you can normally get a few of these and it's pretty swaggy; but throwing it out in general is probably going to get you blown up more often than not, especially since Cassie's main starter is from a low. I almost always save all my meter for X-ray's, breaker (if they can get more than 30-35% I break, otherwise the 50% I can get off X-ray is better opportunity cost), or armoring through holes in their strings, which are guaranteed.

Sonya has EX special options, but they're all full combo punishable, and nothing crushes your hopes of a match quite like blowing a bar and still eating a full combo/set-up afterwards.

 

[Dedlock]

for Cassie I do mix both zoning and rush, throwing ring tosses from a distance helps put her off balance and forces her to come to you and thats when you have the advantage, her gun is very predictable and extremely punishable, sometimes I actually eat the damage from her gun because its so insignicant but be careful from her ex version, however good cassie players dont waste a bar on Ex gun unless they're desperate.

As for parries my strategy is to go for all or nothing, if you;re going to risk parrying then ex parry is the way to go, atleast then you can get something out of it.

Also Arc Kick is a good tool against Spec ops Cassie, I've caught them off guard quite a number of times.

 

[Dedlock]

guys any strategies against MOS Ermac, the guy is a pain in the ass, they all have one way of playing and his combo damage goes up to 39%! I was in a state of shock.

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

MOS Ermac does more damage than you, so what that means is you will have open him up more than he does, trading won't work at all. However, he has pretty ass wake ups... You can neutral jump his wake up options, or if he starts to do the proximity blast thing w/ armor, you can either be right on top of him because it has a buggy hurt box that misses point blank, or you can get a cross up early in the knockdown and just keep pressuring him.

I found blocking his strings not too bad at all; block low for everything and then on reaction fuzzy guard the overhead because it's like 20 frames. You can normally get it. He does stay pretty neutral on his advancing string (something like -1 or -2), so you're going to have to poke out of it. I believe you can neutral jump out of his pressure as well, so once you block a string it's your turn. Just be patient and play is like a punish game.

Sonya is pretty mentally taxing to play against because the opponent will keep guessing and noticing how much they're guessing wrong and will start to get frustrated. Mostly only viable in longer sets than a BO1, but stay on him and watch your own tendencies/patterns to make sure you're actually mixing him up.

The last big thing that I was able to catch on Ermacs a lot is the sweet 3/4 screen distance jump-ins over his projectile. If you are closer than full screen, bait a projectile and dive kick it. You should be able to full punish any time he throws it from more than full screen. He'll try to teleport once you catch him once or twice and he sees you at that distance, so you can just start to neutral jump instead of jumping in, and that full punishes the whiffed tele (I used njp, 12, ~run 21u4 OR njp, 12, ~run 121bf4).

 

[Dedlock]

thanks, didn't know his overhead was 20 frames, blocking low it is then! and his poor wakeups never occurred to me.

 

[Gankedddx]

I main both Sonya and Johnny Cage respectively and noticed the matchup while playing against a Covert Ops Sonya with my Cage today. I feel like everything JC can do just gets blown up unless you totally get into their mind early, or back them into a corner and just pressure the hell out of them. If I tried to go for a d4 with JC, Sonya just did b33 to overpower my poke and go into a fullscreen carry BnB. I didn't think it would prioritize, but man I was pretty surprised. She can also parry his f3, (since I poke with d4 and immediately follow up with a f3 for gap closing and pressure) which I could have assumed since Sonya can pretty much parry any mid hit. Stunt Double probably has an easier time by zoning, chipping enough on their block, or even added pressure mixups with the doubles, but Sonya can pretty much coast through A-List and Fisticuffs with Covert Ops.

I'll update the OP tomorrow with JC info and the blurb @HugeMcBigLarge made about MOS Ermac. Good stuff guys, keep it going!

 

[shura30]

I main both Sonya and Johnny Cage respectively and noticed the matchup while playing against a Covert Ops Sonya with my Cage today. I feel like everything JC can do just gets blown up unless you totally get into their mind early, or back them into a corner and just pressure the hell out of them.

It's a crappy matchup for JC but people really tend to forget how unsafe sonya is
also her farther starter is b1 anything else will whiff or can be crouched

If I tried to go for a d4 with JC, Sonya just did b33 to overpower my poke and go into a fullscreen carry BnB. I didn't think it would prioritize, but man I was pretty surprised.

Strange, but you should use this at your own advantage, whiff punish any of these attempts: I assume you get hit because b33 is in range, fake a d2 (shorter) and whiff punish with F3

She can also parry his f3, (since I poke with d4 and immediately follow up with a f3 for gap closing and pressure)

correct and I do this a lot especially if those f3s are telegraphed which is a bad habit I've seen in almost all the J cages I fought online
d4, b4, (ex)fireball can/should be the answer, also the parry is heavily punishable. If the sonya is baiting for a parry, chances are she won't expect a jumpin[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[Dedlock]

I came across a Johhny cage who had no answers for me hope it wasn't you, I also parried the majority of his moves against me.

I've come across a number of cages and to me I feel alist is his deadliest variation that Delayable ex nut punch is a headache and his superior zoning is also a great tool to ground me.

Also Parries are very risky, so take advantage of that.

 

[Gankedddx]

correct and I do this a lot especially if those f3s are telegraphed which is a bad habit I've seen in almost all the J cages I fought online.
d4, b4, (ex)fireball can/should be the answer, also the parry is heavily punishable. If the sonya is baiting for a parry, chances are she won't expect a jumpin

I haven't had the pleasure to fight against good JCs online yet, but after all the streamed tournies I've watched the past couple months, I'm pretty sure most Sonya players can telegraph that d4 into f3, ESPECIALLY against A-List players.

I came across a Johhny cage who had no answers for me hope it wasn't you, I also parried the majority of his moves against me.

I've come across a number of cages and to me I feel alist is his deadliest variation that Delayable ex nut punch is a headache and his superior zoning is also a great tool to ground me.

Also Parries are very risky, so take advantage of that.

I feel like AList is good, and at one point was top notch due to the run cancelling for added pressure/safety/mixup opportunities, but after messing around with and seeing Stunt Double, I think I've changed my mind. Against Sonya I think it'll be the toughest of the three just because the added zoning ability could be quite pestering. Not to mention, the chip opportunities in the corner with s333, EX db1 (repeat 2-3 times) is pretty crazy. And you can also catch them with a 50/50 on the EX db1 by hitting them low (the second clone hit is an overhead). But alas, this is a Sonya matchup thread, not a JC strategy thread, sorry for going a bit off topic .

And I don't believe it was me, he only caught me with a parry twice, unless you only parried twice. If so, I apologize for that pathetic excuse for a JC .

 

[Fatalfemme]

I'm pretty new to Sonya but I find that I have a lot of trouble against Slasher Jason. His bf2 keep me out of the air for punishes even when the first hit whiffs. Divekick feels all but useless and even when I bait him into advancing under neutral jump punch, I still get hit with wayward upward slashes. How do you guys fight him?

Sidenote: I'm surprised Kenshi didn't make this list.

 

[Gankedddx]

I'm pretty new to Sonya but I find that I have a lot of trouble against Slasher Jason. His bf2 keep me out of the air for punishes even when the first hit whiffs. Divekick feels all but useless and even when I bait him into advancing under neutral jump punch, I still get hit with wayward upward slashes. How do you guys fight him?

Sidenote: I'm surprised Kenshi didn't make this list.

This is a living breathing thread, so whenever someone mentions a character they're having difficulty going against, it's an open discussion with everyone else. I'm surprised Kenshi hasn't come up yet either, but I haven't played too many online as it is. Jason is another one that I'm not totally 100% on yet either. Usually whenever someone picks him against me they're just doing it for the character, not for the win.

However, if any of this changes, I'll be sure to post something on here and edit the OP regarding these two characters.

Welcome to Sonya .

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

Don't have a ton of Jason xp, but what I have seen:
Cross overs are strong against him. His uppercut is slow enough and your ji1 has a dumb enoug active period to catch him most of the time and give you the free 50/50 every jump is.

Cross over his wake up option every time. Nothing he can do will hit you. Easy oki that nullifies his armor, doesn't detract from your pressure too much, and keeps you mid-screen.

Jason's only real mix-up comes from his low->overhead stomp to sword slash string. He's pretty negative on this, so you can take over pressure once you block it right.

Jason has HUGE advance on a lot of his strings. Either stay full screen or RIGHT on top of him. You don't want to be jump in distance because he'll be able to hit you w/o you answering.

Covert ops just has to go toe-to-toe with him more than anything. Demolition should be able to out damage him in most scenario's, and once you get to full screen you get a free reload. You can just zone him with special forces as well.

 

[Dedlock]

For Jason, I know this is risky but I've been ex parrying his moves alot lately when he's on a Ramage , I find it easier than most.

Apart from that poking and baiting I find is effective, go for lows, most important learn how to avoid his xray, because you don't want to be necessarily caught in that when all you have to do is duck.

I fought some Kenshis none of them were really much of a threat, your ex and regular arc kick and drop kick will help reduce the zoning space, his uppercut is his biggest physical threat so try baiting it to punish. Throw energy rings at him if you're from a distance.

 

[Gankedddx]

I fought some Kenshis none of them were really much of a threat, your ex and regular arc kick and drop kick will help reduce the zoning space, his uppercut is his biggest physical threat so try baiting it to punish. Throw energy rings at him if you're from a distance.

I played Kenshi (Balanced) for a little while not too long ago just because I was curious how much better he got post patch (which wasn't significant enough, but still pretty great), so I can type up a little blurb for the time being from what I remember, hopefully it proves important hahaha.

In the meantime, I messed around with D'Vorah this weekend and I think she can pose a pretty big threat to Sonya with her WGC and solid 50/50s in Swarm Queen. Has anyone had any experience as of late? I know they dropped her WGC to a one frame link, but it's still pretty crazy even on block.

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

Kenshi: He has the same problems as in 9; cross-ups will wreck him. You want to stay right on top of him at all times and cross over for oki. He has great wake up armor options, that will all whiff if you jump over him right. This takes a little practice, but it's super frustrating, because Sonya owns the air.

Be Patient! Every time Kenshi catches you, it's the full screen mini-game again where you have to run in on him. Dive kicks should make your approach way easier. Also, always block low! Kenjutsu has an overhead that doesn't chain into anything and then an overhead special launcher, but the other variations cannot do anything to you overhead.

Playing vs. Kenshi feels in Sonya's favor, it's just a game to stay inside and wiggle around his zoning. Also, this is a great MU to use your block pressure (12 or 121 both leave you +2 and guarantee a poke, but can set you up for a fast 50/50), Kenshi's normals are slow, except his s1 (7 frame high, can combo), but most people use the low or f32 as starters because of the good advance.

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

D'Vorah: One of the best cases of you NEED to know the holes here. when she does her string (think it's 212) that looks like three overhead claw swipes and ends in an overhead, you can EX bf4 in between the second and third hit. If she does her other string that is safe, you can low profile/poke out when she goes to pull the bug out. Any time she can pull out the bug, you can armor through that phase, and normally just poke out. I haven't seen too much problem with this once you've been under fire for a little while.

The other gimmick D'Vorah has is doing a string into the low puddle. The second you suspect, or see (stamina is a good indicator of when run cancels are stopping) that she's not going to do bug throws and she is doing the low puddle, you can neutral jump it (don't jump forward/back! You'll get caught), you can back dash, or you can just do a string with enough carry to get you out (f2b1 is easy, b14 CAN work, but be fast on it).

So major two gimmicks out of the way, D'Vorah is a rush down character, which means we get to be patient and tactical. This match up was the first I really started to spam back jumping. She will try really hard to come in, and it gives you a lot of freedom to dive kick from a distance, f2b1 to catch her by surprise, or to even also run at her and just know you'll need something fast to trade. Make her come to you.

She has really bad wake up options, and your b332 should double hit her ovipositor stabby thing into full combo. Normally I have D'vorah's laying on the ground and scared.

TL;DR: Be patient, make her come to you. Also, learn where to poke out in the block pressure string; D'vorah has holes you can disrespect.

 

[Orochi]

Kenshi: He has the same problems as in 9; cross-ups will wreck him. You want to stay right on top of him at all times and cross over for oki. He has great wake up armor options, that will all whiff if you jump over him right. This takes a little practice, but it's super frustrating, because Sonya owns the air.

Be Patient! Every time Kenshi catches you, it's the full screen mini-game again where you have to run in on him. Dive kicks should make your approach way easier. Also, always block low! Kenjutsu has an overhead that doesn't chain into anything and then an overhead special launcher, but the other variations cannot do anything to you overhead.

Playing vs. Kenshi feels in Sonya's favor, it's just a game to stay inside and wiggle around his zoning. Also, this is a great MU to use your block pressure (12 or 121 both leave you +2 and guarantee a poke, but can set you up for a fast 50/50), Kenshi's normals are slow, except his s1 (7 frame high, can combo), but most people use the low or f32 as starters because of the good advance.

I disagree with the cross up wrecking him. You will get punished for 27% ex rising karma. You cant jump at or over kenshi with meter. Without meter maybe.

 

[HugeMcBigLarge]

Jumping at and jumping over are hugely different. Jumping in on Kenshi, I agree is a bad thing. You're jumping over too early if he is catching you with reverse input wake-ups. You want to be just over his head as he stands up. Because rising karma actually comes out significantly out and in front of him. There's a lot of space in between Kenshi and the shadow's hurt box, and you want to be in that.

There is a zone on kenshi where nothing will hit you; shoulder charge doesn't have that upwards hit box, you can jump over rising karma, and all other armor wake up options he has leaves him stationary and vulnerable to you now being behind him with a jump-in attack coming at him.

Admittedly, this takes a bit of practice, but once you know the timing it's pretty reliable. Also in my experience I tend to come out way ahead on this. I'll cross over A LOT, and probably 5/6 times he'll just stand up and block because he has to accept that the pressure is coming. Risk/reward on doing this I think is highly in the aggressor's favor because it's hard for the Kenshi to hit the window of reversing inputs and doing it quick enough that he won't be double hit out of it.

http://imgur.com/lc51NXE

That links shows you how much room there is when Kenshi has a RK out how much room there is. You should be somewhere in that range when he actually can wake up and do it.

 

[Orochi]

Jumping at and jumping over are hugely different. Jumping in on Kenshi, I agree is a bad thing. You're jumping over too early if he is catching you with reverse input wake-ups. You want to be just over his head as he stands up. Because rising karma actually comes out significantly out and in front of him. There's a lot of space in between Kenshi and the shadow's hurt box, and you want to be in that.

There is a zone on kenshi where nothing will hit you; shoulder charge doesn't have that upwards hit box, you can jump over rising karma, and all other armor wake up options he has leaves him stationary and vulnerable to you now being behind him with a jump-in attack coming at him.

Admittedly, this takes a bit of practice, but once you know the timing it's pretty reliable. Also in my experience I tend to come out way ahead on this. I'll cross over A LOT, and probably 5/6 times he'll just stand up and block because he has to accept that the pressure is coming. Risk/reward on doing this I think is highly in the aggressor's favor because it's hard for the Kenshi to hit the window of reversing inputs and doing it quick enough that he won't be double hit out of it.

http://imgur.com/lc51NXE

That links shows you how much room there is when Kenshi has a RK out how much room there is. You should be somewhere in that range when he actually can wake up and do it.

Nah, with enough practice it's easy to tell on reaction as you are getting up and see the jump if it will be a cross up or not. This tactic used to hit me a lot when I was learning the character but it's been weeks since someone has hit me with this successfully. This is of course way harder to pull off online I mainly play offline.