Tech - Thunder God So I think I figured out a little frame trap with the LRC...

[SonicNinja3532]

I don't know if this has been discovered yet as this is my first post on TYM, but I think there may just be a little frame trap with our local neighbourhood thunder god.
So I was doing a little testing, and I found that f24 is around +2 on block, and the same with b11 I believe. I found this by testing it against Jax's gotcha grab, which is 9 frames, and Raiden's standing 2,which is 10 iirc. If cancelled frame perfect, it will beat Jax's grab. If cancelled fast but not frame perfect, then it will trade, and if not cancelled correctly then it will be beaten. Obviously cancelling into f12 will beat it, but that's not the point. My main theory here is that by LRC f24 into b11, it will be a frame trap that will beat or trade with every non armoured move, depending on how perfect the cancel is. The fastest d1 is 6f, with I believe KL and Ermac(?) amongst a few others possess. Everyone else is 7f upperwards besides those select few. As a result, I believe that as b11 is a mid(obviously) we can frame trap people, and because b11 is also +2(correct me if I'm wrong) we can cancel 3 times(the order would be f24>b11>pressure option, I like 214 as most people will be blocking and take 3.5 chip, or throwing for around 15 after chip.) Lastly just as a general reference, f2 is 15 frames, b1 is 8f(as is the next 1.) I apologise for my overuse of brackets, and I apologise for any incorrect frame data. I leave it at that.

 

[Derptile]

Eh, that was a bit confusing so correct me if I'm wrong here.

So you're saying that both F24 LRC and B11 LRC are +2 on block, and because of that you can do frame traps like F24 LRC B11 since B1 is 8 frames so it'll beat out every other poke or go into other strings once they start to respect it.

If so then nice find, obviously they could backdash out midscreen but then you can always read that and punish, and it would be pretty good in the corner.

 

[buyacushun]

The mkxframadata.com spreadsheet and the in game data says that b11 is negative nine and I do remember getting hit after it by a normal but that was online and I don't remember if I ever tried just blocking after. I would check with someone who can properly test frame data. Once all my stuff is updated I'll try to beat out gotcha grab

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Yeah, its what I'm saying. Never thought about the back dash, but very few people seem to remember it's there. So far no one has even tried to backdash the string in all the 1000+ matches I've played with him.
My only concern with this is that the hitbox on b11 is hella weird, even after they supposedly fixed his attack collisions, but I have yet to fully test it. I'm adactually surprised no one has thought of this, it just randomly came to mind.

Could make for interesting pressure though, as it could confirm into 35 or so percent, and I think his stamina would recharge after a shocker>b14 lrc. I'm about to hit the lab and test it out properly, so I'll post my findings.

 

[buyacushun]

The mkxframadata.com spreadsheet and the in game data says that b11 is negative nine and I do remember getting hit after it by a normal but that was online and I don't remember if I ever tried just blocking after. I would check with someone who can properly test frame data. Once all my stuff is updated I'll try to beat out gotcha grab

Just realized this whole thing is if the strings in question are LRC'd. Ok mb, does raiden have a LRC thread?

 

[Derptile]

Just realized this whole thing is if the strings in question are LRC'd. Ok mb, does raiden have a LRC thread?

No there's no official LRC frame data. It's always been known that some of his strings are slightly + or neutral when LRCed but no one has done the testing yet.

@SonicNinja3532 I know it might be too much to ask but do you think you could find out the LRC frame data for all of Raiden's useful strings? It's been like 5 months and we still don't have the actual numbers lol.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Just realized this whole thing is if the strings in question are LRC'd. Ok mb, does raiden have a LRC thread?

Not a proper composite of his frame data like what the Johnny cage guys have, only questions asking about his frame data on a lrc.

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

if i recall, most of his LRCs are negative on block, save for a few

 

[buyacushun]

I would ask @infamy23 or @smokey. I know both of these guys have done frame data testing and maybe they'd like to help out.

I tried this myself and I can't get it to work once. Does Raiden have to create the ball of lightning before he can run? As in instead of immediately run cancelling he has to actually "start" the move.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

No there's no official LRC frame data. It's always been known that some of his strings are slightly + or neutral when LRCed but no one has done the testing yet.

@SonicNinja3532 I know it might be too much to ask but do you think you could find out the LRC frame data for all of Raiden's useful strings? It's been like 5 months and we still don't have the actual numbers lol.

I unfortunately don't have the necessary tech to properly find out, but I know for a fact that every normal and string is negative except b11 and f24(I forgot to mention, I believe f2 and 3 are both potentially +4 on block, but I am not too sure). Everything else is definitely negative.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

I would ask @infamy23 or @smokey. I know both of these guys have done frame data testing and maybe they'd like to help out.

I tried this myself and I can't get it to work once. Does Raiden have to create the ball of lightning before he can run? As in instead of immediately run cancelling he has to actually "start" the move.

It has to be instant. Like straight away. I'm about to try it out again now.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Admittedly, it's difficult. I can land it easier with b11 but im struggling with f24. However, I use the analog(crucify me if you want) so I suppose it doesn't help.

 

[buyacushun]

It has to be instant. Like straight away. I'm about to try it out again now.

I know it has to be instant but I'm asking about when can Raiden actually run cancel?

 

[Derptile]

I know it has to be instant but I'm asking about when can Raiden actually run cancel?

Each character besides Roo Kang should be able to cancel on frame so you don't even need to see the animation to cancel.

Like Tyrant when he does Law cancels, he cancels so fast that you only hear the sound and not the animation. You should be able to do the same thing with Raiden's LRCs.

edit: Proven wrong, there's a delay required.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Each character besides Roo Kang should be able to cancel on frame so you don't even need to see the animation to cancel.

Like Tyrant when he does Law cancels, he cancels so fast that you only hear the sound and not the animation. You should be able to do the same thing with Raiden's LRCs.

Yeah it has to be that fast. Honestly trying to b11 out of it is too hard for me, because I can barely get 214, and for some reason my muscle memory has that etched in. Im gonna keep doing it until it's second nature, because I can see it being really helpful in a pressure situation.

 

[DreadKnight1]

Why is every new raiden thread about his LRC?its already been fully fleshed out... When will somebody find some actually new tech with this character

 

[buyacushun]

Each character besides Roo Kang should be able to cancel on frame so you don't even need to see the animation to cancel.

Like Tyrant when he does Law cancels, he cancels so fast that you only hear the sound and not the animation. You should be able to do the same thing with Raiden's LRCs.

Yeah it has to be that fast. Honestly trying to b11 out of it is too hard for me, because I can barely get 214, and for some reason my muscle memory has that etched in. Im gonna keep doing it until it's second nature, because I can see it being really helpful in a pressure situation.

When I was inputting this move, I would do the run cancel but it seems to only come out when the move looks like it's forming. Can either of you post you doing it, or point me to some footage of someone doing it properly?

 

[infamy23]

I have not tested since the hotfix, but the way it has always worked is this:

You must wait 14 frames from the time the move starts to animate, before you input your run. If you input a run 12 frames (for example) after the move starts to animate, then the run will not buffer and he will just release the lightning ball instead of run cancelling out of it.

If you input the run 14 frames, up until 20 frames after the move animates, then he will run on the first possible frame.

So there is a 7 frame buffer for you to input the run command, and Raiden will always begin his run 20 frames after the lightning ball starts to animate.

This makes his run cancel different from other characters, because he has always had this built in 14 frame delay, whereas the other characters have just recently been given an 8 frame delay in the latest patch.

 

[Dizzy]

I have not tested since the hotfix, but the way it has always worked is this:

You must wait 14 frames from the time the move starts to animate, before you input your run. If you input a run 12 frames (for example) after the move starts to animate, then the run will not buffer and he will just release the lightning ball instead of run cancelling out of it.

If you input the run 14 frames, up until 20 frames after the move animates, then he will run on the first possible frame.

So there is a 7 frame buffer for you to input the run command, and Raiden will always begin his run 20 frames after the lightning ball starts to animate.

This makes his run cancel different from other characters, because he has always had this built in 14 frame delay, whereas the other characters have just recently been given an 8 frame delay in the latest patch.

Thanks for writing this up.

I was going to post you definitely cannot do them so fast the animation of lightning ball doesn't come out, like most chars that have very advantageous run cancels.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

No there's no official LRC frame data. It's always been known that some of his strings are slightly + or neutral when LRCed but no one has done the testing yet.

@SonicNinja3532 I know it might be too much to ask but do you think you could find out the LRC frame data for all of Raiden's useful strings? It's been like 5 months and we still don't have the actual numbers lol.

I could find the frame data, but you just have to ask my friend

 

[infamy23]

This has been known for a long time, but regardless, it's good that you were able to figure it out on your own.

f24 fbrc f21b2 sp00ky hands is such a strong, safe frame trap

I assume you mean f24 lrc f12b2

Technically yeah it's a frame trap, but against my offline training partners, they just d1 or d3 on reaction to that so it doesn't really work at all.

As I said, there is a 20 frame delay that cannot be avoided, so the fact that Raiden is +2 is kind of irrelevant, because 20 frames is more than enough time for a good player to recognize that you are going for a LRC and he can poke or armor on reaction.

On top of that, the execution that is needed to take advantage of being +2 is ridiculous. The OP claims that he is beating Jax's Gotcha Grab with b11 LRC 2

I don't doubt that he has done it, but I've been trying for the last 30 minutes and I haven't landed it once.

Under realistic conditions, you are going to be neutral on block with b11 LRC or f24 LRC

On top of that, your opponent has 20 frames to react to your LRC which renders your frame advantage useless anyway.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

You have to wait 20 frames? Not sure about that, simply because when cancelled instantly, it would beat Jax's grab. I'm pretty sure that if I was holding it for 20 frames, I would be able to be beaten by the grab, and obviously he's not in blockstun for that long. Idk, maybe I was wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is a solid frame trap IF done correctly. I definitely seems so.

 

[RozayMcTang]

Can you record doing this and link it up in here? ... May be easier to disect what's going on that way

 

[SonicNinja3532]

Th

Can you record doing this and link it up in here? ... May be easier to disect what's going on that way

Only reason I can't is because I don't have recording software so I'd forced to use my phone, and it can't be done in record and playback. Best I can do is try to get my bro to help out, but it may have to be tomorrow because I have school. I'll try as soon as possible.

 

[buyacushun]

Th

Only reason I can't is because I don't have recording software so I'd forced to use my phone, and it can't be done in record and playback. Best I can do is try to get my bro to help out, but it may have to be tomorrow because I have school. I'll try as soon as possible.

Are you on pc? Otherwise it's fairly easy to get some recorded footage up.