Tech - Thunder God So I think I figured out a little frame trap with the LRC...

[SonicNinja3532]

Are you on pc? Otherwise it's fairly easy to get some recorded footage up.

If I'm totally honest, I don't know how lol. I mean obviously I can look it up, but I've never had reason to. If possible, I'll see if I can get my clips on xbox upload, because I recorded it with both scenarios. As soon as I can I'll have footage.

 

[infamy23]

This stuff is a bit difficult to explain with text so I made a video:

 

[Hell's Mascot]

This stuff is a bit difficult to explain with text so I made a video:

Excellent breakdown! However, I feel like the frame mechanics haven't been fully elucidated yet so a few assumptions we have to make may not hold at a later time.

If there could ever be a PC frame advance software that would work with a hacked version of this game (think what tool assisted users do with emulators) then this stuff could be determined.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

This stuff is a bit difficult to explain with text so I made a video:

Good stuff my man! I had forgotten all about the reversal coming out a frame faster. I had been thinking in my mind that the b11 may have been +3, but I just dismissed it. This means that f24 is +3 as well. The most important thing here is that you can cancel into b11 much faster than 2, I was actually able to do that a bit more consistently and beat the gotcha grab.

I knew that this was a frame trap, and because most people wouldn't reversal without armor, and will be in block stun without it, allowing for more pressure. If anyone would like to expand on this feel free to, but I've shared all I know.

 

[RozayMcTang]

Great stuff!

 

[legion666]

This stuff is a bit difficult to explain with text so I made a video:

I always thought reversal comes out at exact frames of start ups. And that it doesn't shave off the frame of start up, but allows you to get out of the block animation without spending an extra frame. So a 9 frame normal comes out at 10 frames after blocking, but a reversal special 9 frame attack comes out at 9 frames. Am I wrong here?

 

[infamy23]

I always thought reversal comes out at exact frames of start ups. And that it doesn't shave off the frame of start up, but allows you to get out of the block animation without spending an extra frame. So a 9 frame normal comes out at 10 frames after blocking, but a reversal special 9 frame attack comes out at 9 frames. Am I wrong here?

Technically you are correct, because the numbers will still add up if you look at it that way.

But there is no "extra frame", because if you just block and don't do anything, there will be a certain amount of blockstun that is incurred by each attack in the game. The only way to alter this blockstun value is to perform a reversal.

The way that you're describing it, is as if you are being penalized for doing a non-reversal, but that is not what's happening because even if you don't do anything, that "extra frame" of blockstun is still there.

Regardless of how you want to look at it, the important thing is that a reversal will come out 1 frame faster than it would otherwise.

 

[buyacushun]

Technically you are correct, because the numbers will still add up if you look at it that way.

But there is no "extra frame", because if you just block and don't do anything, there will be a certain amount of blockstun that is incurred by each attack in the game. The only way to alter this blockstun value is to perform a reversal.

The way that you're describing it, is as if you are being penalized for doing a non-reversal, but that is not what's happening because even if you don't do anything, that "extra frame" of blockstun is still there.

Regardless of how you want to look at it, the important thing is that a reversal will come out 1 frame faster than it would otherwise.

So do the startup values in the game account for this? As in if a normal reads 7f startup I can beat -7 moves because the data is done with the "extra frame" accounted for?

 

[buyacushun]

Technically you are correct, because the numbers will still add up if you look at it that way.

But there is no "extra frame", because if you just block and don't do anything, there will be a certain amount of blockstun that is incurred by each attack in the game. The only way to alter this blockstun value is to perform a reversal.

The way that you're describing it, is as if you are being penalized for doing a non-reversal, but that is not what's happening because even if you don't do anything, that "extra frame" of blockstun is still there.

Regardless of how you want to look at it, the important thing is that a reversal will come out 1 frame faster than it would otherwise.

So do the startup values in the game account for this? As in if a normal reads 7f startup I can beat -7 moves because the data is done with the "extra frame" accounted for?

 

[infamy23]

So do the startup values in the game account for this? As in if a normal reads 7f startup I can beat -7 moves because the data is done with the "extra frame" accounted for?

Block advantage in the game is calculated based on the assumption that you are not doing a reversal. Startup values have nothing to do with that calculation.

If something is -7 on block, then the defender is free to act for 7 frames while the offender is in recovery. The -7 assumes that you are not shaving off 1 frame of blockstun with a reversal.

So if you want to punish with a normal, you will need to use something with 6 frames of start-up. This is simply because a 6 frame move does not become active until the 7th frame. There is a misconception on TYM that a 6 frame normal should hit you in 6 frames, and that's where the "extra frame" myth got started.

The only reason you can punish something that is -7 with Tempest EX spin is because it's a reversal, so it shaves 1 frame of blockstun, therefore making the move -8 instead of -7. So in reality, you are punishing something that is -8, with a 7 frame special.

The only thing that is changing, is blockstun, which in turn affects block advantage. Start-up values are not affected at all.

 

[buyacushun]

Block advantage in the game is calculated based on the assumption that you are not doing a reversal. Startup values have nothing to do with that calculation.

If something is -7 on block, then the defender is free to act for 7 frames while the offender is in recovery. The -7 assumes that you are not shaving off 1 frame of blockstun with a reversal.

So if you want to punish with a normal, you will need to use something with 6 frames of start-up. This is simply because a 6 frame move does not become active until the 7th frame. There is a misconception on TYM that a 6 frame normal should hit you in 6 frames, and that's where the "extra frame" myth got started.

The only reason you can punish something that is -7 with Tempest EX spin is because it's a reversal, so it shaves 1 frame of blockstun, therefore making the move -8 instead of -7. So in reality, you are punishing something that is -8, with a 7 frame special.

The only thing that is changing, is blockstun, which in turn affects block advantage. Start-up values are not affected at all.

I don't mean that startup values are affected. I'm asking if the in game frame data accounts for how reversals and stuff works. If I find a move that says "-7" and I use a normal that says "7 startup", can I use that to punish? Or should i add one more frame to startup of all normals when trying to figure out punishes?

 

[infamy23]

I don't mean that startup values are affected. I'm asking if the in game frame data accounts for how reversals and stuff works. If I find a move that says "-7" and I use a normal that says "7 startup", can I use that to punish? Or should i add one more frame to startup of all normals when trying to figure out punishes?

No, the in-game data does not account for reversals.

The simple way to wrap your mind around this without worrying about the technical explanation is:

Move is -7 on block.

If you want to punish with a normal, you need to use something that is 1 frame faster. (6 frames in this case)

If you want to punish with a reversal special, then you can use something that is equal to the block advantage (7 frames in this case)

 

[buyacushun]

No, the in-game data does not account for reversals.

The simple way to wrap your mind around this without worrying about the technical explanation is:

Move is -7 on block.

If you want to punish with a normal, you need to use something that is 1 frame faster. (6 frames in this case)

If you want to punish with a reversal special, then you can use something that is equal to the block advantage (7 frames in this case)

Ok thanks. That's what i thought.

 

[legion666]

Technically you are correct, because the numbers will still add up if you look at it that way.

But there is no "extra frame", because if you just block and don't do anything, there will be a certain amount of blockstun that is incurred by each attack in the game. The only way to alter this blockstun value is to perform a reversal.

The way that you're describing it, is as if you are being penalized for doing a non-reversal, but that is not what's happening because even if you don't do anything, that "extra frame" of blockstun is still there.

Regardless of how you want to look at it, the important thing is that a reversal will come out 1 frame faster than it would otherwise.

I agree with your description of it, I just meant that Gotcha Grab which has a 9 frame start up will come out in 9 frames as a Reversal not in 8 as you said in the video. That got me confused.