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So he sucks... but WHY?

ChoseDeath

Seriously Casual Player.
I just want to leave this here too, but spending meter for that unblockable fullscreen mid is a long way from OP.

Especially considering the amount of time it whiffs/is jumped over/trades with something.

Imo, Swoops and Altsa have summed it up. In my personal experiences, swamp thing is definitely not a terrible character. He is, however, a character whose toolkit is alot smaller than a majority of the cast, and requires more patience, more planning, and more preparation to fight an up hill battle.

I personally believe he has more losing MU's than winning MU's as things stand currently, and other characters can do alot more. More damage, more pressure, more usable/viable strings, etc. His trait is fundamentally a one trick pony, and requires a corner combo to actually be viable.

I enjoy this character, and when your game plan works and you manage to get your tools to work/corner pressure going, it is fun. Not an unplayable/un-win-able character, but definitely recognised as a lower tier placeholder. With some adjustments, he would be a solid competitor.
I'm thrilled with your optimism! I got a lot of mine beaten out of me yesterday, lol. I was super salty. Then I just read your post and thought, "You know what? He's absolutely correct. Remember how horrid Zangief was in SFV season 1?" Swamp Donkey definitely needs adjustments, but I'm gonna try and be more positive. Thank you!
 

Percimon

Sky above, Voice within
His s3 definitely should be special canceled + his s2 should be buffed + his trait should be reworked since it's useless for now..
AND his s3 and d3 should break Bane's trait armor like it breaks exb3/f3 armor
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
of all the gaps he has b223 is one id like decreased the most, from combo interrupt to backdash escape only, put it down from +6 maybe if do that.
d1~green thumb being interrupted on normals changed
mb db3 improved to were the clone will hold opponent longer on a trade (or original swampy e immune to projectiles after the clone grabs?)
trait improved a bit would be nice, less recovery frames or heal while hes in it swampy or something

or even with just altering his base stats to give him more base damage to get more out of when hes in/more hp/def points to help
 

XxXAntiJoshXxX

Herpetologist - The Study of The Reptillian
I don't think Swamp Thing sucks, he just doesn't have any matches where he shines. I've been playing a lot of matches online and I feel like he has a lot more neutral matchups than most characters. He can deal with zoning and is very good at spacing. Close up rush down characters give him some trouble, but only if Swamp Thing isn't the one applying pressure. Luckily if you bring them to the corner your options are nasty against most the cast. He will remain my main for now regardless of buffs. I do however miss Grundy's armor wakeup throws. I feel like swampthing would be awesome if we could wakeup with green thump/armor it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
 

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
I don't think Swamp Thing sucks, he just doesn't have any matches where he shines.
Doesn't this mean he sucks? Haha. :). And I think he loses very hard against both zoning and rushdown. Problem is he doesn't dominate the space he's supposed to. I agree with the earlier post that his f/b 3 could be the solution. For the damage he gets off those, the Speed and block stun are ridiculously poor
 
His db3 mb shouldn't be unblockable. But it could use some armor to save him from dumb trading. His vines need better grab-boxes. A lot of weird profiles get out of it easily. His neutral 2 is the dumbest button in the game. 30 frames for a shit range overhead? Hi is a corner monster which is fun, but midscreen he lacks some tools
 

gibster13

A fan of fans
My mate FrogFgc sometimes plays him and everytime he jumps, I have time to...

1) Take a trip to Sainsbury's and buy some tea
2) get home, realise I do not have a kettle
3) Go back to Sainsbury's and buy a kettle
4) Travel to Scotland and get water from the mountains
5) Go back home and make a tea
6) Wait for the tea to cool down
7) Drink the tea and relax for around 30mins
8) Repeat the process 4 times
9) Get back to the game to see swamp thing still in the air and d2 him
 
There is absolutely no reason to use this character over other characters. His mixups are trash, trait isn't really worth using most of the time, just about everything he does is a risk/has a gap/unsafe etc. There's no real way to get any meterless damage outside of his command grabs since his meterless combo options off of f233 and b223 are finnicky. You have to play insanely patient as Swamp Thing and the reward just isn't really worth it when you can play someone like Aquaman or Black Adam.

I don't even think he's really all that awful, you just have to work a lot harder than other characters.
 
even if they just straight swapped the garden out for that ability trait tele
Honestly, that would be sick. It feels like he was almost designed with that trait in mind but they went a different direction at the last second. Abigail's garden is an awesome concept but it just isn't effective, i'd be alright with this.
 

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
Honestly, that would be sick. It feels like he was almost designed with that trait in mind but they went a different direction at the last second. Abigail's garden is an awesome concept but it just isn't effective, i'd be alright with this.
I feel the same with captain cold platform jump. The character really comes alive with that move, but they didn't let him do it outside of gear. As for the garden and other decisions... why I will never know.
 

ShadyHeart

Relationship with Sonya ended
They designed swamp thing to be a grappling zoner. The problem is the answer to ALL of his zoning except for his F3 is to duck. His trait is also designed with zoning in mind to not allow the opponent to jump or dash towards him and have to take the mixups.

"Hmm... Swamp Thing is weak to ducking.... I know! Let's give him a super negative low projectile to throw at opponents who are already crouching constantly! That'll fix it."

Make his vine grab a mid throw and maybe his clone from behind a mid as well. Make his trait not disappear from the dumbest shit. Then he'll be the character he was meant to be. Before anybody complains "A LoNg RaNgE mId GrAb Is BrOkEn!!!!", it lose trades to literally everything, it can be backdashed and jumped (or literally any movement of any kind if it's not set up), and he has to aim it as it doesn't lock on.
 

masuhdunkillyall

Aht Aht Aht!
They designed swamp thing to be a grappling zoner. The problem is the answer to ALL of his zoning except for his F3 is to duck. His trait is also designed with zoning in mind to not allow the opponent to jump or dash towards him and have to take the mixups.

"Hmm... Swamp Thing is weak to ducking.... I know! Let's give him a super negative low projectile to throw at opponents who are already crouching constantly! That'll fix it."

Make his vine grab a mid throw and maybe his clone from behind a mid as well. Make his trait not disappear from the dumbest shit. Then he'll be the character he was meant to be. Before anybody complains "A LoNg RaNgE mId GrAb Is BrOkEn!!!!", it lose trades to literally everything, it can be backdashed and jumped (or literally any movement of any kind if it's not set up), and he has to aim it as it doesn't lock on.
I agree with the trait and clone mid suggestion, but the vine grab being a mid would be "broken" to all but higher level or pro players. If newer players and scrubs can't get past basic zoning, imagine the rage an almost full screen command grab would bring combined with a mid hitting clone and low projectile.

Not saying it would make him OP, but it would be frustrating as fuck to fight against and personally I don't think he needs it.
 
I agree with the trait and clone mid suggestion, but the vine grab being a mid would be "broken" to all but higher level or pro players. If newer players and scrubs can't get past basic zoning, imagine the rage an almost full screen command grab would bring combined with a mid hitting clone and low projectile.

Not saying it would make him OP, but it would be frustrating as fuck to fight against and personally I don't think he needs it.
Not to sound rude. But that's an honestly horrible way to reason as to why someone/something shouldn't be buffed.

Not improving/adding/buffing/ect. something just because only "pro" players would know or learn how to defend against is just outright silly.

If NRS designed Inj2 or even MKX around that mentality, then we would lose A LOT of character specific tech just due to the fact that any casual player who doesn't spend 5 minutes in training mode to combat against it would deem it "broken"

That means no zoning, 50/50s, frame traps, restands , OTGs, tick throws, staggers, ect. Many of these things I've mentioned has either never been heard of before by a casual player, or if so, deemed "broken". Simply for the fact that they never bothered to learn how to play against it. All of the things I've listed above are practically ESSENTIAL to a fighting game.
 

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
I think you're all giving NRS too much credit. They don't look at balance in any way at game launch. Instead, they are a designer first and foremost. Their approach leads to unique gameplay and great visuals, which gets a lot of new players. New players don't care about balance. They care about lots of flashy things happening (hence high input leniency), fancy cinematics (super moves), and the unbalance just naturally comes. It's just pure luck on what is overpowered and what is underpowered.

The only serious playtests they do is in their internal play group. That group is great at catching bugs, but poor at catching competitive issues (balance, spectator issues, system-wide issues). And although those changes eventually come from that team, they don't make them until the damage is already done.

Unless they read feedback from actual competitive players, their changes, I feel, have a 50/50 chance of actually doing the intended impact (yes, 50%). That's why I started this thread. We need to give very direct feedback, and that requires a unified message.

What I'm getting is a better F3/B3 (faster and better block frames) would be a great help for his gameplay. DB3 also seems to be the avenue of choice for addressing his full screen issues. It looks like everyone is fine with wanting a trade and keeping poor damage, just as long as it actually hits and gives him a chance to dash up.

Things nobody wanted are: faster jump, better log (I'm surprised here), better anti-air (I think this is a problem for every character), and better wake-up.

Things people want because they think it's just wrong/dumb design: Command throw life gain needs to be higher, command throw re-stand just... sucks, some of his combos require absurdly tight windows.
 
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Mikemetroid

Who hired this guy, WTF?
I swear I think Swamp Thing is the only character who
Swamp Thing is a bad character, I'll even say the worst in the game. Anyone who loses to this character and/or thinks he's viable has no fucking clue about Swamp Thing. I could list every single issue his archetype has and why he can't compete at the highest level but I'm not doing NRS job for them again like I did my other "buff" thread for a certain Netherrealm ambassador. It boggles my mind how shit this character is compared to the rest of the cast. Like how did this pass through your QA? Use some simple logic NRS and buff him accordingly so he can compete. He's straight up left on the bench in this current meta. I'll just roll my face on the pad at CEO with Black Adam an hour beforehand in training mode and pretend I'm good hitting easy one bar 50%s, ridiculous jailing pressure and mashing my 6 frame d1 into an easily hit confirmable 46%. Fun game is fun...

Balance isn't rocket science. People want to play this character. Buff him. Save the green. #undraintheswamp
At least they listen to you. My ninja, words right out of my mouth.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
I think you're all giving NRS too much credit. They don't look at balance in any way at game launch. Instead, they are a designer first and foremost. Their approach leads to unique gameplay and great visuals, which gets a lot of new players. New players don't care about balance. They care about lots of flashy things happening (hence high input leniency), fancy cinematics (super moves), and the unbalance just naturally comes. It's just pure luck on what is overpowered and what is underpowered.

The only serious playtests they do is in their internal play group. That group is great at catching bugs, but poor at catching competitive issues (balance, spectator issues, system-wide issues). And although those changes eventually come from that team, they don't make them until the damage is already done.

Unless they read feedback from actual competitive players, their changes, I feel, have a 50/50 chance of actually doing the intended impact (yes, 50%). That's why I started this thread. We need to give very direct feedback, and that requires a unified message.

What I'm getting is a better F3/B3 (faster and better block frames) would be a great help for his gameplay. DB3 also seems to be the avenue of choice for addressing his full screen issues. It looks like everyone is fine with wanting a trade and keeping poor damage, just as long as it actually hits and gives him a chance to dash up.

Things nobody wanted are: faster jump, better log (I'm surprised here), better anti-air (I think this is a problem for every character), and better wake-up.

Things people want because they think it's just wrong/dumb design: Command throw life gain needs to be higher, command throw re-stand just... sucks, some of his combos require absurdly tight windows.
I wouldn't know where to start with a buff list tbh, there's just so many flaws about his design. He was meant to be this zoning/space control grappler but he's subpar at all of those things, the fact that I need to get my opponent into the corner to finally get anything going is asinine.
 

masuhdunkillyall

Aht Aht Aht!
Not to sound rude. But that's an honestly horrible way to reason as to why someone/something shouldn't be buffed.

Not improving/adding/buffing/ect. something just because only "pro" players would know or learn how to defend against is just outright silly.

If NRS designed Inj2 or even MKX around that mentality, then we would lose A LOT of character specific tech just due to the fact that any casual player who doesn't spend 5 minutes in training mode to combat against it would deem it "broken"

That means no zoning, 50/50s, frame traps, restands , OTGs, tick throws, staggers, ect. Many of these things I've mentioned has either never been heard of before by a casual player, or if so, deemed "broken". Simply for the fact that they never bothered to learn how to play against it. All of the things I've listed above are practically ESSENTIAL to a fighting game.
All the things you mentioned are indeed essential; I'm not implying they should design games COMPLETELY around what only works for pro's or what only works for noobs. I was specifically speaking about the grab being a mid and how I think it would certainly be an "un-fun" thing for lower level players to get around. More importantly and much more relevant than that point though, is that I just don't think he needs it at all. There's plenty else they can do before giving him full screen-ish mid-hitting command grabs to make him viable.

Also, if you don't think these designers work around balancing and creating move-sets that cater to all sets of players and skill levels, you're kidding yourself. The point of these games is to make money and keep people playing them while also maintaining a competitive balance for the people who really want to dig into them (i.e. us, on these boards, and the tourney players).

So yes, they absolutely do consider whether or not something is "fun" or "broken" to fight with or against at all skill levels, and it is definitely a consideration as to whether they want to buff that aspect of the character or not. It is this way in literally every multiplayer game. Some devs get it right the first time, some it takes multiple balancing attempts, but it's foolish to think that it's not part of their consideration.
 

RNLDRGN

RONALD ROGAN
He has a ton of tools but the frames are awful on them.

-F3/B3 shouldn't be 35 frames, maybe more like 30-31. Then he wouldn't get hit out of MB F3/B3 every time he does it.

-MB clone is slower than regular clone. Make them the same speed and make MB clone actually provide benefit on trade. Whether that be armor or holding for longer to allow for him to dash in.

-Damage. Swamp lacks in damage because all his meterless footsie strings have incredibly hard or inconsistent links. Make the recovery on f233 and B223 faster (on hit or whiff) but don't make the move more plus on block. That allows him to F233 F23 easier and B223 F23 easier. Swamp hits like a girl compared to the top tiers--but this would be remedied if he had more reliable meterless damage and could save his meter for command grab healing or lucky MB vines.

- Trait. Make it stay active until the timer runs out and not disappear on hit. Requires minimal tweaking and doesn't make him OP given he still has to set it up.

These fixes would enhance his current gameplan without requiring a major overhaul. Just my $0.02.