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So he sucks... but WHY?

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
I don't want this becoming a buff Swamp Thing thread because I have a wishlist. But clearly there are some holes in his game. Some say damage. Some say mobility. Health? (should this archetype have more health or better life gain off command throw?) And then there's his limited moveset. Some say he has poor strings, although I don't think they're too bad. Some say he needs better anti-air, but I think everyone can complain about that.

I personally think a simple tweak to db3 to hit mid and the MB version to be an unblockable mid throw would solve all his problems, which I feel are neutral related.

Do you all think my approach would be wrong? Or would you all just prefer more damage :D.
 
Um what? How is an unblockable full screen mid not op in your eyes? Anyway I don't think he's all that bad, but one of the most annoying things is trades with MB db3. I think something should happen other than the clone just lets go.
 
Because he's a new character. Unless a new character legit takes 5 seconds to learn(deadshot), we're gonna assume the legacy characters with tried and true strategies are better.
Some people went through the character already , the games been out for long enough to know if the character is lacking. And keep in mind I'm not talking about swamp , it's just annoying when people attack others for asking buffs and say the games too early but then proceed to complain about the other characters
 
Is he bad? I can't tell. I feel like I just do not use him correctly so far. I guess he has no threatening full screen range and people hate zoning right now? His pay off is okish when you do get in, but I do not know what to do close up with him tbh.
 

Tweedy

Noob
Some people went through the character already , the games been out for long enough to know if the character is lacking. And keep in mind I'm not talking about swamp , it's just annoying when people attack others for asking buffs and say the games too early but then proceed to complain about the other characters
Swamp Thing could totally be bad. It's just this statement, with the game having been out for less than a month.... I can't..
 

Swoops

Noob
He's definitely low end of the tier list. From everything we know about the game right now we can't really say whether or not that means bad. I couldn't see him above many other characters in terms of their total kit.

He could use a lot of little QOL stuff. MB Green Thumb healing more, links for his combos more consistent, AA buff, slight frame data buffs (mostly block advantage that doesn't really get him anything so why is it there.)

I don't really think any of that is causing him to be a fundamentally weak character though. A huge problem is that he's forced to rely on trades at full screen when better characters get free pressure. He basically needs to plan 3 steps ahead when the opponent is only thinking about what's next. IE against a deadshot I have to plan for him to do wrist shot, wrist shot, so I can trade log with the second shot. Then I get a free dash, and have to plan on what he's going to do next. But what if he doesn't even do the second shot, what if he tries jump in on me after the log trade? Blegh.

Don't get me wrong I like playing characters that require that amount of thinking compared to the opponent, but that ratio doesn't often make a high tier character.
 

tatterbug4

Bug of tater's
I think even the worst of characters in this game are still pretty good. But I feel with swamp thing they should really make the hard links off some of his combos a bit easier
 

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
Um what? How is an unblockable full screen mid not op in your eyes? Anyway I don't think he's all that bad, but one of the most annoying things is trades with MB db3. I think something should happen other than the clone just lets go.
Because you can jump it, it takes meter, and has high recovery. It only works if the guy is ducking full screen. Just wanted something he can do with meter to stop people just ducking all day and sitting on a lead against him in neutral. Again, I can't figure out what he's missing, but it may just be the game system working against him
 

Altsa

His main issue is his frame data. Everything is full of holes, does not link well together or is just so damn slow. Some examples:

-db3 is 30 frames, high. His main "counterzoning" tool. Hard to get out. Trades always poorly(does 6% damage). Shaving off around 5 frames might help. Also would help the next point.
-1,1 , b1,2 and 2,1 don't link to db3 on hit. Idea of a short range 50/50 or a quick punish into a meterless standing reset was kinda neat but it just does not work.
-Standing 2 is 30 frames. Might be usable at 20. Would still be a slow overhead with no range.
-d1~df2 is not a true tick throw.
-b3 and f3 are 35 frames and you get no advantage on block. If they were 30 they might be more usable.
-d1 does not link to MB bf3. It does link to regular bf3. For some reason.
-b223 into f23 and f233 into f23 are incredibly tight links and don't even work against all characters.
-green thumb restand is completely worthless leaving you at +1 when your fastest move is 7 frames. (I know out of context comparisons are bad but Firestorm restands you and he is +17)

And then there is his trait. Abigail's Garden is almost completely unusable midscreen. Sometimes you have time to activate it and then just see what happens. In the corner you can get it out if you spend one bar of meter and cut some of your combo damage. Main problem it has is its recovery frames. Would also be nice if f2,1 spreads the garden instead of canceling it.

But all the negativity aside, he is still really fun to play, even in his current state.
 

K7L33THA

Grapple > Footsies
Swamp Thing is bad, it is not too early to say that. All you have to do is duck vs him, all of his overhead options can be back dashed. Low log is highly punishable. So his mixup options are shit. Useless trait, floaty jump, losing trades with vine grab AND mb clone, getting poked out of tick throws. I could go on...
 

Slymind

Noob
Swamp Thing is bad, it is not too early to say that. All you have to do is duck vs him, all of his overhead options can be back dashed. Low log is highly punishable. So his mixup options are shit. Useless trait, floaty jump, losing trades with vine grab AND mb clone, getting poked out of tick throws. I could go on...
His trait in the corner is legit.
 

D. R.

Noob
Swamp Thing is a bad character, I'll even say the worst in the game. Anyone who loses to this character and/or thinks he's viable has no fucking clue about Swamp Thing. I could list every single issue his archetype has and why he can't compete at the highest level but I'm not doing NRS job for them again like I did my other "buff" thread for a certain Netherrealm ambassador. It boggles my mind how shit this character is compared to the rest of the cast. Like how did this pass through your QA? Use some simple logic NRS and buff him accordingly so he can compete. He's straight up left on the bench in this current meta. I'll just roll my face on the pad at CEO with Black Adam an hour beforehand in training mode and pretend I'm good hitting easy one bar 50%s, ridiculous jailing pressure and mashing my 6 frame d1 into an easily hit confirmable 46%. Fun game is fun...

Balance isn't rocket science. People want to play this character. Buff him. Save the green. #undraintheswamp
 
I don't want this becoming a buff Swamp Thing thread because I have a wishlist. But clearly there are some holes in his game. Some say damage. Some say mobility. Health? (should this archetype have more health or better life gain off command throw?) And then there's his limited moveset. Some say he has poor strings, although I don't think they're too bad. Some say he needs better anti-air, but I think everyone can complain about that.

I personally think a simple tweak to db3 to hit mid and the MB version to be an unblockable mid throw would solve all his problems, which I feel are neutral related.

Do you all think my approach would be wrong? Or would you all just prefer more damage :D.
Imo, the db3 tweaks OP mentioned, make f3/b3 actually useful/linkable, fix f233 follow-up link for real meterless potential. Give trait a way to be useful outside of the corner. Maybe give him an extra mix up besides b232 (becomes so tedious once your oppenent realises all they have to do is block low). These tweaks surely wouldn't make him broken, and would allow more MU's to be even.
 
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SaSSolino

Soul Stealing Loyalist
Swamp Thing is a bad character, I'll even say the worst in the game. Anyone who loses to this character and/or thinks he's viable has no fucking clue about Swamp Thing. I could list every single issue his archetype has and why he can't compete at the highest level but I'm not doing NRS job for them again like I did my other "buff" thread for a certain Netherrealm ambassador. It boggles my mind how shit this character is compared to the rest of the cast. Like how did this pass through your QA? Use some simple logic NRS and buff him accordingly so he can compete. He's straight up left on the bench in this current meta. I'll just roll my face on the pad at CEO with Black Adam an hour beforehand in training mode and pretend I'm good hitting easy one bar 50%s, ridiculous jailing pressure and mashing my 6 frame d1 into an easily hit confirmable 46%. Fun game is fun...

Balance isn't rocket science. People want to play this character. Buff him. Save the green. #undraintheswamp
I belive poor old Cyborg is at the bottom of the tier list
 

ChoseDeath

Seriously Casual Player.
Swamp Thing is a bad character, I'll even say the worst in the game. Anyone who loses to this character and/or thinks he's viable has no fucking clue about Swamp Thing. I could list every single issue his archetype has and why he can't compete at the highest level but I'm not doing NRS job for them again like I did my other "buff" thread for a certain Netherrealm ambassador. It boggles my mind how shit this character is compared to the rest of the cast. Like how did this pass through your QA? Use some simple logic NRS and buff him accordingly so he can compete. He's straight up left on the bench in this current meta. I'll just roll my face on the pad at CEO with Black Adam an hour beforehand in training mode and pretend I'm good hitting easy one bar 50%s, ridiculous jailing pressure and mashing my 6 frame d1 into an easily hit confirmable 46%. Fun game is fun...

Balance isn't rocket science. People want to play this character. Buff him. Save the green. #undraintheswamp
I absolutely agree with you. All the freaking gaps in his strings, all the shit you can back dash then full combo punish. Here's one example. B2 3 2 3. That little overhead "mix up" is a joke. You can back dash or armor that last 3, and if you try and be clever and throw a log instead of it, you can OS the back dash and then beat Swamp Donkey's -14 ass. F1 2xx4, F1 2 Super with Black Adam does 617 damage. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?! The Green needs help.
 
Pros:

  • Decently damaging combos
  • Long range normals/specials
  • Above average health
Cons:
  • Floatly jump
  • Terrible mobility
  • Slow normals
  • Gaps in strings/tick throws
  • High risk/low reward mixups
  • Trait is only worth using when ending a combo with your opponent in the corner(his trait may very well be the worst in the game just in terms of how often it is actually worth using)
  • Anti-airs are bad to mediocore
  • Zoning ability is almost non-existant
  • Anti-zoning ability is mediocore
  • Some of his moves are literally worthless(the last hit of 113 is unsafe, not special-cancelable, doesn't give a juggle mid-screen or in the corner, why would you ever finish this string? You wouldn't.)
 
Um what? How is an unblockable full screen mid not op in your eyes? Anyway I don't think he's all that bad, but one of the most annoying things is trades with MB db3. I think something should happen other than the clone just lets go.

I just want to leave this here too, but spending meter for that unblockable fullscreen mid is a long way from OP.

Especially considering the amount of time it whiffs/is jumped over/trades with something.

Imo, Swoops and Altsa have summed it up. In my personal experiences, swamp thing is definitely not a terrible character. He is, however, a character whose toolkit is alot smaller than a majority of the cast, and requires more patience, more planning, and more preparation to fight an up hill battle.

I personally believe he has more losing MU's than winning MU's as things stand currently, and other characters can do alot more. More damage, more pressure, more usable/viable strings, etc. His trait is fundamentally a one trick pony, and requires a corner combo to actually be viable.

I enjoy this character, and when your game plan works and you manage to get your tools to work/corner pressure going, it is fun. Not an unplayable/un-win-able character, but definitely recognised as a lower tier placeholder. With some adjustments, he would be a solid competitor.
 
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God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
Some people went through the character already , the games been out for long enough to know if the character is lacking. And keep in mind I'm not talking about swamp , it's just annoying when people attack others for asking buffs and say the games too early but then proceed to complain about the other characters
second time ive seen you on this rant. you need to learn the difference between discussing characters strengths/weaknesses in the game, and flat out whining for changes. The first one is how we build our knowledge, that second one is the straight scrub shit that certain tym posters famous for. The fact that both go hand in hand in your posting so much that it's blended into the one thing for you and you can no longer distinguish the two is just so damn corny lol