So he sucks... but WHY?

[masuhdunkillyall]

He has a ton of tools but the frames are awful on them.

-F3/B3 shouldn't be 35 frames, maybe more like 30-31. Then he wouldn't get hit out of MB F3/B3 every time he does it.

-MB clone is slower than regular clone. Make them the same speed and make MB clone actually provide benefit on trade. Whether that be armor or holding for longer to allow for him to dash in.

-Damage. Swamp lacks in damage because all his meterless footsie strings have incredibly hard or inconsistent links. Make the recovery on f233 and B223 faster (on hit or whiff) but don't make the move more plus on block. That allows him to F233 F23 easier and B223 F23 easier. Swamp hits like a girl compared to the top tiers--but this would be remedied if he had more reliable meterless damage and could save his meter for command grab healing or lucky MB vines.

- Trait. Make it stay active until the timer runs out and not disappear on hit. Requires minimal tweaking and doesn't make him OP given he still has to set it up.

These fixes would enhance his current gameplan without requiring a major overhaul. Just my $0.02.

I think you nailed it. Trait, difficulty executing meterless damage, b3/f3 being practically useless, and clone. Frame data in general is his biggest enemy.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Regarding trait, having it deal damage even on grounded opponents seemed like an easy buff, but I guess you all want more? Faster start-up? Longer Duration? Not having it go away when hit seems a bit much, considering that the opponent will end up on it post damage no?

Tangent: Somehow... I expect NRS to do a Tree reference. Buff F/B3 to 33 frames with +3 on block. Standing 3 would be +3 on block. D3 would be come -3 on block (stretching it there since there's no tree, but it does have a 3!)

 

[masuhdunkillyall]

Regarding trait, having it deal damage even on grounded opponents seemed like an easy buff, but I guess you all want more? Faster start-up? Longer Duration? Not having it go away when hit seems a bit much, considering that the opponent will end up on it post damage no?

Tangent: Somehow... I expect NRS to do a Tree reference. Buff F/B3 to 33 frames with +3 on block. Standing 3 would be +3 on block. D3 would be come -3 on block (stretching it there since there's no tree, but it does have a 3!)

Regarding trait, faster startup OR not going away on hit are imo the only things that can make it more viable...barring frame data changes to his normals and strings that might allow for better usage.

 

[ChaoticShdwMonk]

What about making it not go away on hit but instead accelerate its depletion while taking hits? seems like a balance between the two

 

[Kinetic Balding1]

His clone should hit mid and his trait shouldn't go away on hit. His mid and close vine grab should grab crouching opponents while the far version remains the same. His mb bayou bash and bayou bash should be a couple frames faster so d1 into it links. Decrease the startup of his b3s and f3s to atleast 28Make his d1 6 frames and his d2 7 frames and he will be a solid character.

 

[Evil Canadian]

Grodd and Swamp thing alliance SUPER PAC

Give us buffs or give us death!!!!!!!

 

[Daemantalo]

Grodd and Swamp thing alliance SUPER PAC

Give us buffs or give us death!!!!!!!

The King of the Jungle must form a pact with the Avatar of the Green! It's the only way!

I too enjoy playing Swamp thing, but his floaty jump and tight execution links really aren't friendly to me.

 

[regulas]

So as someone who doesn't know enough yet to analyse more in depth the character proper as of yet, the biggest take-away I've had from reading this thread:

Everyone really wants swamp thing to be a rushdown character and is convinced he's terrible because he's not a rushdown character. (In general a common occurrence with all characters in a new game).

Same thing I'm seeing with actual play: everyone seems to try and rush close range and throw out mix-ups.

Isn't his primary quality the large range a lot of his abilities have? Shouldn't punishing or footsies be more central? Shrug but I don't really know what I'm talking about yet.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

So as someone who doesn't know enough yet to analyse more in depth the character proper as of yet, the biggest take-away I've had from reading this thread:

Everyone really wants swamp thing to be a rushdown character and is convinced he's terrible because he's not a rushdown character. (In general a common occurrence with all characters in a new game).

Same thing I'm seeing with actual play: everyone seems to try and rush close range and throw out mix-ups.

Isn't his primary quality the large range a lot of his abilities have? Shouldn't punishing or footsies be more central? Shrug but I don't really know what I'm talking about yet.

Actually, the most common complaint isn't that at all. The most asked for item is a faster F/B3 that actually has advantage on block (yes, the slowest set of F/B3 is also the most disadvantageous on block). The issue isn't his range... it's that the attacks are so slow that rushdown interrupts him and zoners backdash. In many cases, the reverse is true as well, with zoners interrupting him and rushdown characters back dashing away from him. There is nothing to keep the opponent from moving, which is the second complaints (trait and DB3 being so slow and awful on hit/trade). I think if you read the entire thread (which is a lot of posts I know), you'll see that nobody in this thread actually wants him to be rushdown. We are trying to ensure he stays his midrange archetype and asking for changes that make that strategy more effective.

We didn't ask for better log kick as that would be a zoning move. We didn't ask for any faster buttons aside from his standing 2 (30 frame point blank punch). We even avoided asking for a faster startup/recovery on his command throw. Instead we asked for the re-stand follow-up to not put him only at +1 against a cast of characters where everyone else is faster. Last but not least, range means nothing if all his long range attacks can be blocked ducking. That's why we floated the idea of a mid hitting DB3 and/or a better MB DB3. The faster F3 would also help with this problem.

 

[Brown Cow 54]

He has a ton of tools but the frames are awful on them.

-F3/B3 shouldn't be 35 frames, maybe more like 30-31. Then he wouldn't get hit out of MB F3/B3 every time he does it.

-MB clone is slower than regular clone. Make them the same speed and make MB clone actually provide benefit on trade. Whether that be armor or holding for longer to allow for him to dash in.

-Damage. Swamp lacks in damage because all his meterless footsie strings have incredibly hard or inconsistent links. Make the recovery on f233 and B223 faster (on hit or whiff) but don't make the move more plus on block. That allows him to F233 F23 easier and B223 F23 easier. Swamp hits like a girl compared to the top tiers--but this would be remedied if he had more reliable meterless damage and could save his meter for command grab healing or lucky MB vines.

- Trait. Make it stay active until the timer runs out and not disappear on hit. Requires minimal tweaking and doesn't make him OP given he still has to set it up.

These fixes would enhance his current gameplan without requiring a major overhaul. Just my $0.02.

These are pretty much my exact thoughts and they wouldn't go overboard like some of the other suggestions. Also why do I even have the ability to stop trait from spreading or stop it completely. Why would I ever want to do that? I really don't think he needs much though.

 

[regulas]

Actually, the most common complaint isn't that at all. The most asked for item is a faster F/B3. The issue isn't his range... it's that the attacks are so slow that rushdown interrupts him and zoners backdash. There is nothing to keep the opponent from moving, which is the second complaints (trait and DB3). I think if you read the entire thread (which is a lot of posts I know), you'll see that nobody in this thread actually wants him to be rushdown. We are trying to ensure he stays his midrange archetype and asking for changes that make that strategy more effective.

We didn't ask for better log kick as that would be a zoning move. We didn't ask for any faster buttons aside from his standing 2 (30 frame point blank punch). We even avoided asking for a faster startup/recovery on his command throw. Instead we asked for the re-stand follow-up to not put him only at +1 against a cast of characters where everyone is faster. Last but not least, range means nothing if all his long range attacks can be blocked ducking. That's why we asked for the DB3 and F3 buff.

I did read through most of it and that's still the impression I got, some people focused more on footises, but even then this seems to be more footsies as a set-up to rushdown. E.g. the apparent focus on combo's and the like instead of D3, standing 3 and the like.

 

[Brown Cow 54]

He has a ton of tools but the frames are awful on them.

-F3/B3 shouldn't be 35 frames, maybe more like 30-31. Then he wouldn't get hit out of MB F3/B3 every time he does it.

-MB clone is slower than regular clone. Make them the same speed and make MB clone actually provide benefit on trade. Whether that be armor or holding for longer to allow for him to dash in.

-Damage. Swamp lacks in damage because all his meterless footsie strings have incredibly hard or inconsistent links. Make the recovery on f233 and B223 faster (on hit or whiff) but don't make the move more plus on block. That allows him to F233 F23 easier and B223 F23 easier. Swamp hits like a girl compared to the top tiers--but this would be remedied if he had more reliable meterless damage and could save his meter for command grab healing or lucky MB vines.

- Trait. Make it stay active until the timer runs out and not disappear on hit. Requires minimal tweaking and doesn't make him OP given he still has to set it up.

These fixes would enhance his current gameplan without requiring a major overhaul. Just my $0.02.

Oh, and the only other thing I would want that you didn't mention would be a better horizontal hitbox on the air vine grab.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

I did read through most of it and that's still the impression I got, some people focused more on footises, but even then this seems to be more footsies as a set-up to rushdown. E.g. the apparent focus on combo's and the like instead of D3, standing 3 and the like.

Well, those are things he currently has that are near impossible to consistently do. If execution was difficult for other characters, sure. But his execution is extremely high for those combos. I don't see any other character that relies on that much precision for a consistent BnB combo.

More importantly, if those difficult combos weren't the only thing he had to rely on, you wouldn't hear complaints about them probably. Instead it would be on the other tools that should be his strengths given his design.

 

[ChaoticShdwMonk]

You know there's something wrong when your character can't get a b3 from a mb bounce special and cant do unclashable b3/f3 into b3/f3

 

[Brown Cow 54]

You know there's something wrong when your character can't get a b3 from a mb bounce special and cant do unclashable b3/f3 into b3/f3

You can do B3 into B3.

 

[RNLDRGN]

His clone should hit mid and his trait shouldn't go away on hit. His mid and close vine grab should grab crouching opponents while the far version remains the same. His mb bayou bash and bayou bash should be a couple frames faster so d1 into it links. Decrease the startup of his b3s and f3s to atleast 28Make his d1 6 frames and his d2 7 frames and he will be a solid character.

LOL you trying to make him SSS tier?

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

LOL you trying to make him SSS tier?

Haha, you said it not me. Even at 35>33 Frames B/F3 and a 30>20 frame 2 (yes, TWENTY FRAMES) I would be content. I don't ask for much usually on buffs, just that stupid stuff be "less stupid." At this point, I don't even care how they buff his trait. I'll take anything because right now I Just don't want to use it.

 

[RNLDRGN]

Haha, you said it not me. Even at 35>33 Frames B/F3 and a 30>20 frame 2 (yes, TWENTY FRAMES) I would be content. I don't ask for much usually on buffs, just that stupid stuff be "less stupid." At this point, I don't even care how they buff his trait. I'll take anything because right now I Just don't want to use it.

I used to use his trait. Now I only go for tick throws in the corner and my success has been much greater. Ending combos in Green Thumb thorns into more tick throws (D2 works best bc they often jump), MB F3 (which does get stuffed), or just blocking yields good results.

 

[regulas]

Well, those are things he currently has that are near impossible to consistently do. If execution was difficult for other characters, sure. But his execution is extremely high for those combos. I don't see any other character that relies on that much precision for a consistent BnB combo.

More importantly, if those difficult combos weren't the only thing he had to rely on, you wouldn't hear complaints about them probably. Instead it would be on the other tools that should be his strengths given his design.

Here, try this purely as an experiment: Don't attempt combo's. Focus on using his non-combo-able midrange normal's (plus anti-airs against brawlers), with a priority on staying midrange at all costs (e.g. avoid using abilities that would bring you too close even if that means sacrificing that damage).

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Here, try this purely as an experiment: Don't attempt combo's. Focus on using his non-combo-able midrange normal's (plus anti-airs against brawlers), with a priority on staying midrange at all costs (e.g. avoid using abilities that would bring you too close even if that means sacrificing that damage).

With the character that has the slowest walk and floaty jump? In a wide screen game like this? Half the cast would just hold back and they would GAIN distance on him since their back walk is faster than his forward walk. Who needs backdash? And then they just throw projectiles at him all day.

As for Anti-air... this game is a bit weak on those. He has his standing 1, but that's about it. I'm still experimenting with other buttons though. Situational so far.

 

[Kinetic Balding1]

LOL you trying to make him SSS tier?

Zoners would still give him some trouble, but he would become a huge threat for rush down characters.

 

[regulas]

With the character that has the slowest walk and floaty jump? In a wide screen game like this? Half the cast would just hold back and they would GAIN distance on him since their back walk is faster than his forward walk. Who needs backdash? And then they just throw projectiles at him all day.

As for Anti-air... this game is a bit weak on those. He has his standing 1, but that's about it. I'm still experimenting with other buttons though. Situational so far.

Do you have gameplay footage of yourself? Do you use D3 as a spacing and conditioning tool? (I've seen a lot of Things duck walking against zoners when already in range, or letting brawlers walk too close, because they want to use a combo string).

So far I've found the anti-air tools actually fairly effective so long as you are spacing your opponent correctly.

 

[Wavy]

The one that that especially irks me is mb clone being straight booty. You lose trade, it's slow as shit, and it hits like a peanut. I don't know why but that's the #1 thing that pisses me off the most even though it's not the biggest issue with him.

I feel like trait could possibly use tick heals especially for mid screen. The bigger the garden is the more ticks. The garden is absolutely useless when you have someone zoning you out. This could be something to mitigate the damage or force people to come in and prevent you from growing the garden. Although, this could easily end up being broken if the ticks became too strong.

 

[MetalPete]

You know things aren't great when your AI character is inconsistent in linking strings together. I'm trying to level him up and I definitely see where everyone is coming from. ST is hard to play at a high level against high level players. He just doesn't have the speed to compete with most of the cast. And what's up with his health stat? You have a plodding, slow AF character and he doesn't have high health?

My initial hope for Swampy was that he would be molded like Grundy. Give him some armor and make his db3 more like Grundy's swamp hands (which is pretty much what the OP suggested, except I say make it hit low). Hell, I would be fine if we had a better AA grab instead of the awful log kick.

 

[GeoffBedlam]

These are things I've immediately noticed with Swamp Thing on my literal first day of playing the character.

Speed: This is pretty obvious. Everyone has already touched on it, so yeah.

Startup: On some moves it's utter trash. 35 frames for both his f3 AND b3? Makes them useless in certain situations, most notably for background bounces. I can not for the life of me hit either of them after a background bounce.

Hitboxes on certain gear(clubs): I got an Epic Ezra's Razor and started using it despite it being maybe a fourth smaller most of his other clubs. I was naive and thought that it wouldn't really matter but, nope, I can swear it decreases the hitbox on his club, making his already somewhat difficult f233, f23xxdb3, etc. meterless combo basically impossible.

Swamp Thing is the one character that I can right now say ABSOLUTELY NEEDS buffs. I don't want to see him buffed into Top Tier status, I just want him to be actually viable because he really does not come across as it unless it's Decay playing him.