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Match-up Discussion Smoke mu chart mk9

Jer

I'm a literal Sloth
Kitana's d+1 has virtually no block stun. You cannot see that you blocked a d+1 and then punish it. It's not as simple as the frame data being -15. Because you have to guess that the d+1 is coming the Kitana player can blow up the counter poke attempt by doing stuff other than the poke, such as throw or 2,1 into a combo. That is why world class counter poke guys like Dizzy and Cowboy are not punishing every d+1. If you are punishing every d+1 it is actually your scene that is behind on the meta because it means the guy doing the d+1 isn't mixing it up at all.
I really wish I could like this more than once
 

coolwhip

Master
PS: The fallacy that has been thrown around here lately that you can "punish" pokes in the sense that you A) block a poke and then B) realize you blocked said poke and punish with a full combo is just that, a fallacy. This is 100% incorrect otherwise Kitana would never ever use her D1 otherwise she would get full combo punished every time. That's not how counterpoking in this game work. You can't react to it like that.

Even when you think you did, you probably didn't. What most likely happened is your opponent had to dial in whatever string after his poke and you caught him pressing buttons with a fast normal (say Cage's F3 or Jax's F4, etc...).
 

cR Xarakamaka

Kombatant
no i dont need tutorials i was tryin teach you :) . 16bit im trying to keep this chill . i understand what your trying to say to me and i have been trying to explain it does work. you gotta be quick and it comes second nature after doing it for over a year and a half and every game hours a day. its like a reflex after a while. you have active frames for example .7 frame poke the animation is active for 7 frames untill it hits the opponent. then after the active frame comes the block stun say -7 . its extremly possible and not on a read . its not like punishing kung laos 21 on reaction as the standing 2 whiffs overhead and you stand up 21 f2 with cage . thats near impossible but reacting to pokes isnt . im keeping this chill 16bit and i know you respect and listen to dizzy but hit confirming d3s is not on a read. ssf4 has even faster frames than mk and the asians do it on reactions. almost at a very scary level :) . i know in your head you think im probably a random noob i can understand your thinking but you also have to think in my shoes dude. we broke every aspect of this game down talking bout it constant for years constantly learning progressing . trust me im a lot higher level than you think. :)
This guy is throwing out terms he doesn't understand and claiming he does the impossible.

You say you want tutorials and help from top players but guys like Dizzy have spent years trying to explain how the game works. Very few listen.

A simple example is that the block stun from a low poke is so fast no one can see that they blocked a low poke and then punish. They're doing it on read. That is why the top guys don't do it every time.
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
Ok well then we're back to you thinking you're the shit and everyone else is bad. So cool. You have a couple more months to go to a tournament and body everyone. There's nothing else to discuss.
 

GGA Saucy Jack

The artist formerly known as ImNewbieSauce
no i dont need tutorials i was tryin teach you :) . 16bit im trying to keep this chill . i understand what your trying to say to me and i have been trying to explain it does work. you gotta be quick and it comes second nature after doing it for over a year and a half and every game hours a day. its like a reflex after a while. you have active frames for example .7 frame poke the animation is active for 7 frames untill it hits the opponent. then after the active frame comes the block stun say -7 . its extremly possible and not on a read . its not like punishing kung laos 21 on reaction as the standing 2 whiffs overhead and you stand up 21 f2 with cage . thats near impossible but reacting to pokes isnt . im keeping this chill 16bit and i know you respect and listen to dizzy but hit confirming d3s is not on a read. ssf4 has even faster frames than mk and the asians do it on reactions. almost at a very scary level :) . i know in your head you think im probably a random noob i can understand your thinking but you also have to think in my shoes dude. we broke every aspect of this game down talking bout it constant for years constantly learning progressing . trust me im a lot higher level than you think. :)
This is the crux of the problem man. I don't get how you don't see it. You are again saying everyone is bad, and only you are good.
 

cR Xarakamaka

Kombatant
This guy is throwing out terms he doesn't understand and claiming he does the impossible.

You say you want tutorials and help from top players but guys like Dizzy have spent years trying to explain how the game works. Very few listen.

A simple example is that the block stun from a low poke is so fast no one can see that they blocked a low poke and then punish. They're doing it on read. That is why the top guys don't do it every time.
@A F0xy Grampa

foxy can you please just give your input for 1 minute of your time here dude its all i ask . since you were probably one of the first ones to put this into practice and usa dont think were nuts lol .
 
Kitana's d+1 has virtually no block stun. You cannot see that you blocked a d+1 and then punish it. It's not as simple as the frame data being -15. Because you have to guess that the d+1 is coming the Kitana player can blow up the counter poke attempt by doing stuff other than the poke, such as throw or 2,1 into a combo. That is why world class counter poke guys like Dizzy and Cowboy are not punishing every d+1. If you are punishing every d+1 it is actually your scene that is behind on the meta because it means the guy doing the d+1 isn't mixing it up at all.
What do u mean by this? I block her d1 and I am able to punish. DJT does the same. It is a reaction thing. Block then counter. DJT was doing this to kabal players at evo 2013.
 

cR Xarakamaka

Kombatant
@GGA 16 Bit

example here . if i said were both johnny cage . you do d3 into f3 over and over . now im going to block your d3 and im going to instantly do f3. so in your eyes 16bit and anyone who think im wrong . your saying it doesnt matter and its going to be 50/50? is that what your telling me . d3s arent important if they are hit or blocked and frame data is null? , because thats what dizzy says?
 

RM AtK!

aka - RM_AtK !
What do u mean by this? I block her d1 and I am able to punish. DJT does the same. It is a reaction thing. Block then counter. DJT was doing this to kabal players at evo 2013.
think he needs to go watch him vs djt at MLG when he got d1 and d1 cutter stuffed mutliple times
 
If you're waiting and reacting it means it's not a punish and you caught them attacking.
That is a punish tho, I am not getting what u are saying. If I block something that is punishable and counter, that is a punish. It is waiting, reacting, then punishing. Maybe I am not getting what u are saying. Give me an example
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
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cR Xarakamaka

Kombatant
For the sake of trying to be polite once, I will attempt to answer your question.

People do use frame data right. The problem is that once you have "seen" someone do d1, it's too late to punish it. Counter poking does not work by see a d1, realize you blocked it, punish because it's negative. There are too few recovery frames for that action to take place.

-13 is not a universal number.

A move could be -13 with 50 frames of recovery. Meaning you recover in 50, but your opponent recovers in 37.

A move could also be -13 with 18 frames of recovery meaning you recover in 18 but your opponent recovers in 5. There is heavy variance. Pokes are more like this set of numbers, and that window is too small to see the move, block it, determine you blocked it, and punish. The human brain and body can't do that. Disclaimer, I do not recall the exact recovery frames on pokes, but I do know it's insanely low.

That is why it seems to the readers here you do not understand counter poking. It is not as simple as "something is -13, it should get punished everytime."

I hope that made sense, I'm rusty on explaining the numbers of counter poking.

Edit: for the hope of being civil, if one of you Top MK9 gods sees this, please let me know if I explained this correctly or blow me up. Thank you.
dude your completely wrong . youve been told this by a Gga its not how the maths in thiz game works . im being nice too and you and 16bit are prooving me more and more right
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
That is a punish tho, I am not getting what u are saying. If I block something that is punishable and counter, that is a punish. It is waiting, reacting, then punishing. Maybe I am not getting what u are saying. Give me an example

Let's take d+1~cutter. You cannot recognize that you blocked a d+1 and then f+3 to interrupt the cutter. If you wait to see that it's a d+1 and then do the f+3 it's too late. You have to release block immediately to do it. Therefor, the Kitana player can do a "fake out" by doing like 2,1 instead. The Johnny will be ready to release block and f+3 at the sign of d+1 and then be caught and blown up by 2,1.
 

cR Xarakamaka

Kombatant
OK, I'll bite, he's absolutely wrong about Dizzy counterpoking with D3 because from what I've seen (and I've seen plenty of his gameplay), he almost never uses Cage's d3 unless he's getting in or initiating offense. He exclusively counterpokes with F3 or B3, depending on the match-up/situation. I mean his gameplay is literally all over Youtube.
dude check this this . gimmie 3 games of him doing it consistent. link me up :)
 

RM AtK!

aka - RM_AtK !
Let's take d+1~cutter. You cannot recognize that you blocked a d+1 and then f+3 to interrupt the cutter. If you wait to see that it's a d+1 and then do the f+3 it's too late. You have to release block immediately to do it. Therefor, the Kitana player can do a "fake out" by doing like 2,1 instead. The Johnny will be ready to release block and f+3 at the sign of d+1 and then be caught and blown up by 2,1.
no that is wrong.. you can completly punish d1 with f3 or b3.. its -15 frames d1 by itself.

you have 12 frames which is less to punish a d1 cutter... so there for its more likely you'd fail that punish than just a d1 on block. and if u d1 into 21 than you for sure arent gettin a string out before them
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
lol well i mean look how you wrote it.. props you won, i respect that i was just saying that he was punishing it right?

Yes, obviously you can punish a d+1. Him punishing a d+1 doesn't mean anything except that I should have used a anti-counter poke strategy.

Almost ready to tap out of this thread...
 

16 Bit

Mash d+1~Cat Claws
Elder God
NetherRealm Studios
no that is wrong.. you can completly punish d1 with f3 or b3.. its -15 frames d1 by itself.

you have 12 frames which is less to punish a d1 cutter... so there for its more likely you'd fail that punish than just a d1 on block. and if u d1 into 21 than you for sure arent gettin a string out before them

You don't do d+1 into 2,1. You just do 2,1.

A very common scenario: I like to do d+1~cutter after a blocked f+2,1 since that string is low negative. This is a common time Johnny will be ready to counter poke since they read that. If I do 2,1 instead they'll be blown up.
 

cR Xarakamaka

Kombatant
Let's take d+1~cutter. You cannot recognize that you blocked a d+1 and then f+3 to interrupt the cutter. If you wait to see that it's a d+1 and then do the f+3 it's too late. You have to release block immediately to do it. Therefor, the Kitana player can do a "fake out" by doing like 2,1 instead. The Johnny will be ready to release block and f+3 at the sign of d+1 and then be caught and blown up by 2,1.
no 16bit im sorry dude . i punish 90% of d1 cutters dude . your really making yourself look bad 16bit id stop if i was you now
 

RM AtK!

aka - RM_AtK !
Yes, obviously you can punish a d+1. Him punishing a d+1 doesn't mean anything except that I should have used a anti-counter poke strategy.

Almost ready to tap out of this thread...
if you're waiting and reacting it means it's not a punish and you caught them attacking ???

i'm not even trying to fight or start anything im just trying to understand what you're saying because you keep contradicting yourself