Match-up Discussion Smoke mu chart mk9

[cR Xarakamaka]

thanks . your kool dude . i see what your saying ill tone it down a bit but why do that in first place i put few pages back that it doesnt even aa unless they delay the jump i guess our style is we wouldnt even do a double poke . d1 sb is 13 frame gap so no point even doing that vs most. i see what your saying about the community let him get away with it but hes losing combos when he could be hitting them guess just annoying for us over here . nothing we can do about it either but if we did i guarantee the whole scene would listen after we visited because the next problem would be him having to learn hit confirming his d3 every single time he pokes and from my experience when other people we taught start to hit confirm it takes a while for like your instinct/muscle memory to get used to doing it every time. you cant d3 us on block then move cos im gna full combo . thanks for keeping it chill though . i do like a debate but your the only person whos given the kinda answer im looking for. respect for being the first after pages and pages of me asking. just dont think the rest of the top players in usa realise

Okay i love everyone here tbh for the most part. Wafflez does do things he shouldn't but if he sees the person punishing it he stops. I played him a bit online n when i punished him for low poke or f33 he stopped doing it n would respect me if i blocked one. Again i haven't had tons of Games with him. But honestly i understand what you're saying , but @GGA Dizzy @MITDJT. Are really on par with how poking works And I've heard dizzy say before what makes a good tourney player is testing to see what u can or can't get away with. I know you're good n i know chris is good too. Ive never doubted that. You gotta not blow up on @GGA Wafflez. For something the REST of the community is letting him do. Its not tommys fault that people are stupid enough to jump out of d1 on block. If its working for him against that certain opponent than why not keep using it.

I myself wouldn't do that cuz its not my playstyle but i respect that he tests the waters with other players fundamentals n you use what u can to win. Wafflez doesnt really talk shit from what I've seen to anyone. You have to show a little more respect than that to him. He does deserve it. Like i said your argument would be more on why everyone else that chooses to jump or gets all the time after negative frame adv moves doesn't understand.

Just my opinion though. I love chris hes a great player n a great friend. I respect wafflez n dizzy both as great players. I know gga isn't fond of me, because i play smoke too i guess? I could careless though, because I'll play anyone who wants to play. And i have played with great players offline. Not just great but top 10 fundamentally sound players in the game. @MITDJT

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

So just so I'm caught up:

Everyone in the US is bad. Got it.

Therefore everyone losing to them is also bad? So the uk guys who came over here are also bad? Got it.

So after all these years, and millions of games, there are two good players in MK9. You, and your friend you've mentioned in this thread? That's it?

I'm just reading between the lines, but it appears this is what you are saying.

 

[RiBBz22]

Snip

Damage might not be an issue for you, but if one character has better damage you can't pretend they don't and say that it isn't an advantage lol

d3 smoke away on wakeup? I never said that so not sure what you are talking about. Smoke toward goes through all of your wakeups can can punish with smoke bomb. It is extremely good.

I didn't have a chance to read the rest yet, but I will be able to check later

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

i just want answers and i felt disrespected because wasnt whole story to why i came 3rd is all . then let me and you keep being pals for future cos were meeting soon too . and me and others carry on discussion . but if i did like smokebomb smokebomb smokebomb. and you said why you doing that . i wouldnt feel disrespected id listen to why not . everyone else cant answer my questions because they know theyre wrong and they know its not how they should be playing how they are now , but were cool jake .

I don't wanna have bad blood over this either man, as you said, you spent years on this game, but as have everyone else. You can see how you get annoyed when you feel disrespected but you have to see that this is what it looks like you're doing yourself. The way you're making things sound is coming across as super hostile.

I don't wanna have bad blood over this either man, as you said, you spent years on this game, but as have everyone else. You can see how you get annoyed when you feel disrespected but you have to see that this is what it looks like you're doing yourself. The way you're making things sound is coming across as super hostile.

 

[Eddy Wang]

My mood was so down, this thread brought me back up LOL

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

no im trying to open up peoples eyes a bit. instead of everyone shooting me down why not listen to what i say . im not a random scrub starting fights.

So just so I'm caught up:

Everyone in the US is bad. Got it.

Therefore everyone losing to them is also bad? So the uk guys who came over here are also bad? Got it.

So after all these years, and millions of games, there are two good players in MK9. You, and your friend you've mentioned in this thread? That's it?

I'm just reading between the lines, but it appears this is what you are saying.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Damage might not be an issue for you, but if one character has better damage you can't pretend they don't and say that it isn't an advantage lol

d3 smoke away on wakeup? I never said that so not sure what you are talking about. Smoke toward goes through all of your wakeups can can punish with smoke bomb. It is extremely good.

That is what i'm saying Skarlet only has one wakeup and can't be punished because its armored until the first frame she blocks

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

thanks for your mu scarlett vs smoke eddy . your good at them type of things

My mood was so down, this thread brought me back up LOL

 

[16 Bit]

No one is answering because we know you don't understand the basic concepts of how counter poking works, hit confirming, block stun, and so on. We all know it's a waste of time so it's more fun to just troll.

 

[HomeLee1121]

This thread gave me lung cancer some how

 

[Eddy Wang]

thanks for your mu scarlett vs smoke eddy . your good at them type of things

Don't get me wrong i'm not backing you up here, i'm just having a healthy discussion with my boy RiBBz22, its nothing personal really aside i kinda miss this, i don't talk about matchups in MK9 since 2013.

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

no im trying to open up peoples eyes a bit. instead of everyone shooting me down why not listen to what i say . im not a random scrub starting fights.

Open our eyes to what? The everyone on the planet has been playing the MUs wrong and getting away with murder? Only you and your friend could possibly overcome wafflez or dizzy and their bad counter poking? All I've seen is this thread is you telling everyone they are bad, and only you get it. I'm just trying to understand since I was trash at MK9.

 

[RM AtK!]

thanks . your kool dude . i see what your saying ill tone it down a bit but why do that in first place i put few pages back that it doesnt even aa unless they delay the jump i guess our style is we wouldnt even do a double poke . d1 sb is 13 frame gap so no point even doing that vs most. i see what your saying about the community let him get away with it but hes losing combos when he could be hitting them guess just annoying for us over here . nothing we can do about it either but if we did i guarantee the whole scene would listen after we visited because the next problem would be him having to learn hit confirming his d3 every single time he pokes and from my experience when other people we taught start to hit confirm it takes a while for like your instinct/muscle memory to get used to doing it every time. you cant d3 us on block then move cos im gna full combo . thanks for keeping it chill though . i do like a debate but your the only person whos given the kinda answer im looking for. respect for being the first after pages and pages of me asking. just dont think the rest of the top players in usa realise

thanks man.. yeah like i said i completely know what you're saying. i think alot of the community doesn't quite understand how the depth works in it, but even given that you still cant punish EVERY d1 d3 on block. there's a few that get by all of us. But yah if you make it a habbit vs a good player its gonna get blown up lol. like @R.E.O. / @MITDJT (both brothers) / @xSMoKEx / Tyrant / @DetroitBalln / @GGA Dizzy aren't all of them but some noteable players who will punish you for being stupid like that. i'm sure you could agree with this from watching there matches. And i play with the terry bros all the time you have to run the poke meta heavily aware of what you're doing or you get punished vice versa. Some players you can just go ham on if you see they arent on point with it. Why stop your pressure on a bad player who is respecting d3 on block lol. You know what i mean? D1 on block im not too fond of using see as its a completely full punish for some characters that have fast mids lol.

all in all, i know what you're saying and the people i listed + more do know exactly what you mean. but like you said you'll tone it down i know it frustrates you watching stuff like that happen. Honestly sometimes when i see ppl get away with murder all the time in tourneys by doing like 2 minutes of negative frame traps (lol). But is what it is, this is why i think in MKX i hope the community comes together and makes video tutorials and finds and educates everyone so people understand everything and overall have a better community and strong set of fgc players. Really would be cool

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

haha nice att

No one is answering because we know you don't understand the basic concepts of how counter poking works, hit confirming, block stun, and so on. We all know it's a waste of time so it's more fun to just troll.

haha nice attempt to troll me . whats frame data 16bit? , you cant answer my frame data questions cos you know you guys are wrong simple .

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

haha nice att

haha nice attempt to troll me . whats frame data 16bit? , you cant answer my frame data questions cos you know you guys are wrong simple .

If 16 bit (or anyone else) took the time to explain to you why you are wrong, would you listen? Honest question.

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

i want to know why people dont use frame data correctly. i seen people do it correct sometimes but not like every poke etc . theres hand full of people that play correct yes but i challenge anyone reading this to find me ONE game of perfect pokes counter poke game. it doesnt exist that ive seen. i seen djt gave me a game of dabby with liu he counter poked with b312 and 213 a few times but its so important i dont think people realise. dizzy sometimes does too yes but not every poke its more like one every 4 and he does it more . maybe theres games ive not seen granted or games like with kenshi or sonya where its not as needed or kitana from playing keep away game , no one listens untill they play us a bumch of games and realise they have no choice but to hit confirms . its not optional its a must

Open our eyes to what? The everyone on the planet has been playing the MUs wrong and getting away with murder? Only you and your friend could possibly overcome wafflez or dizzy and their bad counter poking? All I've seen is this thread is you telling everyone they are bad, and only you get it. I'm just trying to understand since I was trash at MK9.

 

[RM AtK!]

If 16 bit (or anyone else) took the time to explain to you why you are wrong, would you listen? Honest question.

the only thing he's wrong about is discrediting wafflez which he appologized about because he was frustrated from the hostile replies, but most of them could of just been they weren't clear what he was trying too say.

stop making things all amped up again.

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

yes please tell me ive been asking for 9 pages someone to answer me . im all ears @GGA 16 Bit

If 16 bit (or anyone else) took the time to explain to you why you are wrong, would you listen? Honest question.

 

[16 Bit]

the only thing he's wrong about is discrediting wafflez which he appologized about because he was frustrated from the hostile replies, but most of them could of just been they weren't clear what he was trying too say.

stop making things all amped up again.

This guy is throwing out terms he doesn't understand and claiming he does the impossible.

You say you want tutorials and help from top players but guys like Dizzy have spent years trying to explain how the game works. Very few listen.

A simple example is that the block stun from a low poke is so fast no one can see that they blocked a low poke and then punish. They're doing it on read. That is why the top guys don't do it every time.

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

thanks man.. yeah like i said i completely know what you're saying. i think alot of the community doesn't quite understand how the depth works in it, but even given that you still cant punish EVERY d1 d3 on block. there's a few that get by all of us. But yah if you make it a habbit vs a good player its gonna get blown up lol. like @R.E.O. / @MITDJT (both brothers) / @xSMoKEx / Tyrant / @DetroitBalln / @GGA Dizzy aren't all of them but some noteable players who will punish you for being stupid like that. i'm sure you could agree with this from watching there matches. And i play with the terry bros all the time you have to run the poke meta heavily aware of what you're doing or you get punished vice versa. Some players you can just go ham on if you see they arent on point with it. Why stop your pressure on a bad player who is respecting d3 on block lol. You know what i mean? D1 on block im not too fond of using see as its a completely full punish for some characters that have fast mids lol.

all in all, i know what you're saying and the people i listed + more do know exactly what you mean. but like you said you'll tone it down i know it frustrates you watching stuff like that happen. Honestly sometimes when i see ppl get away with murder all the time in tourneys by doing like 2 minutes of negative frame traps (lol). But is what it is, this is why i think in MKX i hope the community comes together and makes video tutorials and finds and educates everyone so people understand everything and overall have a better community and strong set of fgc players. Really would be cool

i see your saying if you know they dont know about pokes you may aswell d3 om block into normal yeh i get that now. take advantage of your weak opponents knowledge . but we have been hit confirming and punishing every poke every game maybe 1 poke a game will mess up sometime 0. yeh just winds me up no one answered me and just disregard what im saying . not answering one question just wanted to see the game progress because it gets even deeper mind games after hit confirming and punishing every poke

 

[RM AtK!]

This guy is throwing out terms he doesn't understand and claiming he does the impossible.

You say you want tutorials and help from top players but guys like Dizzy have spent years trying to explain how the game works. Very few listen.

A simple example is that the block stun from a low poke is so fast no one can see that they blocked a low poke and then punish. They're doing it on read. That is why the top guys don't do it every time.

see that's what sucks.. i wish we could all come together and collaberate on like a bi weekly tutorial video on everything we flesh out in mkx. Maybe everyone cant just put aside their differences and we could possibly talk more in depth about doing somethin like this and helping grow the community and change tym from being just a hostile environment. I, Myself with @MITDJT @xSMoKEx have talked about doing it and GGA is more than welcome to join us. Anyone for that matter is more than welcome to message me and i'd be more than willing to give them my skype info etc and we can discuss it more and really change things and make MKX super hype and competitive with everyone at the highest lvls of play and equal playing fields.

Edit : also iono if you're saying im asking for help and tutorials for myself. Because i'm not i understand what's goin on i said this would help other people that are out there that don't quite understand it. and no i'm not saying everyone doesn't understand it but theres a big portion in the community and new ppl in the community that would probably love to have this.

 

[RM AtK!]

i see your saying if you know they dont know about pokes you may aswell d3 om block into normal yeh i get that now. take advantage of your weak opponents knowledge . but we have been hit confirming and punishing every poke every game maybe 1 poke a game will mess up sometime 0. yeh just winds me up no one answered me and just disregard what im saying . not answering one question just wanted to see the game progress because it gets even deeper mind games after hit confirming and punishing every poke

yeah and trust me i play with chris too even in lag we both punish pokes and both make mistakes of trying to follow up with low pokes because sometimes you need to mix it up and not just give the other person a free pressure opportunity by poking after every string etc. i know you also know what i'm saying. it's all a mind game and has a lot of depth in it. but ya the message above what i said you're welcome in it as well i just want ppl to come together honestly and lvl up

 

[GGA Saucy Jack]

i want to know why people dont use frame data correctly. i seen people do it correct sometimes but not like every poke etc . theres hand full of people that play correct yes but i challenge anyone reading this to find me ONE game of perfect pokes counter poke game. it doesnt exist that ive seen. i seen djt gave me a game of dabby with liu he counter poked with b312 and 213 a few times but its so important i dont think people realise. dizzy sometimes does too yes but not every poke its more like one every 4 and he does it more . maybe theres games ive not seen granted or games like with kenshi or sonya where its not as needed or kitana from playing keep away game , no one listens untill they play us a bumch of games and realise they have no choice but to hit confirms . its not optional its a must

For the sake of trying to be polite once, I will attempt to answer your question.

People do use frame data right. The problem is that once you have "seen" someone do d1, it's too late to punish it. Counter poking does not work by see a d1, realize you blocked it, punish because it's negative. There are too few recovery frames for that action to take place.

-13 is not a universal number.

A move could be -13 with 50 frames of recovery. Meaning you recover in 50, but your opponent recovers in 37.

A move could also be -13 with 18 frames of recovery meaning you recover in 18 but your opponent recovers in 5. There is heavy variance. Pokes are more like this set of numbers, and that window is too small to see the move, block it, determine you blocked it, and punish. The human brain and body can't do that. Disclaimer, I do not recall the exact recovery frames on pokes, but I do know it's insanely low.

That is why it seems to the readers here you do not understand counter poking. It is not as simple as "something is -13, it should get punished everytime."

I hope that made sense, I'm rusty on explaining the numbers of counter poking.

Edit: for the hope of being civil, if one of you Top MK9 gods sees this, please let me know if I explained this correctly or blow me up. Thank you.

 

[coolwhip]

OK, I'll bite, he's absolutely wrong about Dizzy counterpoking with D3 because from what I've seen (and I've seen plenty of his gameplay), he almost never uses Cage's d3 unless he's getting in or initiating offense. He exclusively counterpokes with F3 or B3, depending on the match-up/situation. I mean his gameplay is literally all over Youtube.

 

[16 Bit]

Kitana's d+1 has virtually no block stun. You cannot see that you blocked a d+1 and then punish it. It's not as simple as the frame data being -15. Because you have to guess that the d+1 is coming the Kitana player can blow up the counter poke attempt by doing stuff other than the poke, such as throw or 2,1 into a combo. That is why world class counter poke guys like Dizzy and Cowboy are not punishing every d+1. If you are punishing every d+1 it is actually your scene that is behind on the meta because it means the guy doing the d+1 isn't mixing it up at all.