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Should Kabal be banned in competitive play? (Community Discussion)

Should Kabal be banned?


  • Total voters
    206

G4S Claude VonStroke

@MK_ClaudeVS on twitter
LMAO I didn't see any of those 5-5 MUs I asked about.....what's your list look like, Tay? I think REO's trollin' with all the 6-4's being the his worst MU. Doesn't he struggle w/ Jax, Kang and Cage up-close and Kenshi, Freddy and Mileena from a distance. I'm probably wrong but I thought I heard something along those lines.....plus look at all the times CDjr beat REO's Kabal w/ Jax.
Did I just read the words struggle and kabal in the same sentence????
 

Lulzlou

Noob
However, I am still interested in what Kung Lao and Reptile players can do, so all options have not been exhausted yet. I do think there are some characters out there who could potentially go even with Kabal.
This 100%. I know how to handle Kabal mainly because I've been playing him for so long. I can't prove that to anyone because no other character has been explored like I did with Kabal, mirrors wont prove anything. I really do believe a few characters have the potential to go even when people finally understand the match up. Another example is Lui Kang. It could be still 6/4 kabal since his hitbox but he has good tools to use against kabal. IMO, 6/4 doesn't mean its a bad match up.
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
There are too many characters that are slept on for us to be banning characters right now.

This game is only a year old and there's new tech coming out every week. Everyone needs to go back to the drawing board and stop assuming that the info that's out there now is all there is to the game.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
This 100%. I know how to handle Kabal mainly because I've been playing him for so long. I can't prove that to anyone because no other character has been explored like I did with Kabal, mirrors wont prove anything. I really do believe a few characters have the potential to go even when people finally understand the match up. Another example is Lui Kang. It could be still 6/4 kabal since his hitbox but he has good tools to use against kabal. IMO, 6/4 doesn't mean its a bad match up.
6-4 is a bad matchup. Some 6-4s are very winnable, but they are bad matchups.
 

Son ov Timett

Bork, No Jin
Rampagin, all this time bickering about Kabal could have been spent studying his frame data, fighting the AI on expert training mode, reviewing Kabal tourney matches to find strategies, and above all playing good Kabals! The mu gets easier the more you play it. Goes for every character in the game, grind it to hell. Grind, grind, grind, like a 16 year old on Inspiration Point. Grind, grind, grind. Now everybody, Grind, Grind, Grind! Just the ladies! <crickets>
 

Lulzlou

Noob
6-4 is a bad matchup. Some 6-4s are very winnable, but they are bad matchups.
I didn't mean it like that. lol I meant as bad as most people think. Too me a lot of people think 6/4 is god awful when its not as bad. Another thing to point out is that you said some 6-4's are winnable. Wouldn't that mean its a 7/3 or worse? If its a 6/4, it is winnable. I really don't get how some 6/4's can be winnable and some can't. 6/4 is 6/4, not any worse.
 

Zyns

Grodd for Injustice 3
Nah. Kabal isn't over-centralized yet. Once tourneys are completely dominated by Kabals, then a ban could be considered.
Aside from this, I know NRS is most likely never patching this game again. But nerfing the dash cancel just a little would fix so many problems.
 

circle masher

NRS PLLLLS MORE BUFF AN NERFPS GAME IS UBNALENCERD
Before this thread becomes a complete trainwreck of people forgetting what the numbers vaguely represent:
REO said:
5-5 = Relatively Even
6-4 = Small Advantage
7-3 = Advantage
8-2 = Big Advantage
9-1 = Extreme Advantage
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I didn't mean it like that. lol I meant as bad as most people think. Too me a lot of people think 6/4 is god awful when its not as bad. Another thing to point out is that you said some 6-4's are winnable. Wouldn't that mean its a 7/3 or worse? If its a 6/4, it is winnable. I really don't get how some 6/4's can be winnable and some can't. 6/4 is 6/4, not any worse.
Some 6-4s are more winnable as others. For instance, I have to use Baraka as an example because that is the only one I can.

Raiden and Kung Lao are by far his worst 4-6 matchups. They severely hinder his game with their teleports and can stop his pressure and footsies. However, they can still be beaten with proper counter measures to their teleports and footsies. Now other 4-6's like Freddy Krueger are actually very manageable if you manage to get past his zoning and know how to keep yourself in. The reason KL and Raiden are not 3-7s is because they are not nearly as bad as Kabal or Kenshi. Kabal can beat you at any part of the screen, and can severely hinder your footsies. Kenshi can also beat you at any part of the screen, and can make it almost unbearable to get in. These are not impossible, but they are much harder than the KL or Raiden matchups.

So all that being said, the matchup numbers cannot be weighted equally in high level play. One 4-6 matchup might be against Freddy Krueger because of how strong his zoning is, but once you get past his zoning the matchup becomes easier. Other 4-6 matchups are very hard but still not 3-7 because of certain things you can do to counteract the character, or a specific part of your game where you have an equal footing or advantage on that character.

I think kabal has 5-5s personally, but not many. He is OP, that much is clear. I for one do not think he is unbeatable, and therefore should not be banned.
 

Lulzlou

Noob
I feel like the community needs to accept their character has worse match ups than 6/4. I understand and respect your opinion Zoidberg747 but I still think people have it wrong. 6/4's don't have to be judged the same but it has to be somewhat equally winnable. It really doesn't make since how 6/4's can be very hard but not considered 7/3. And there is no reason to add the .5's. Accept that your character has bad match ups. Just because you have a 3/7 in your chart doesn't I don't have to even try in the match up. This is all my opinion though, sorry if others don't agree.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I feel like the community needs to accept their character has worse match ups than 6/4. I understand and respect your opinion Zoidberg747 but I still think people have it wrong. 6/4's don't have to be judged the same but it has to be somewhat equally winnable. It really doesn't make since how 6/4's can be very hard but not considered 7/3. And there is no reason to add the .5's. Accept that your character has bad match ups. Just because you have a 3/7 in your chart doesn't I don't have to even try in the match up. This is all my opinion though, sorry if others don't agree.
Isnt this exactly what I said? The 6-4s are all winnable to a degree, but some require more work than others. A 7-3 IMO means that while you have to put in work as your character, you can make many mistakes and still beat a flawless Baraka or other low tier character. Going along with that, lower tier characters nee to know their bad matchups. You have to know exactly when you can get something off of these characters and get damage or pressure whenever you can. The problem with bumping a bunch of 6-4s to 7-3s and 7-3s to 8-2s is that makes the matchup seem so much worse than it actually is. The Kabal matchup is by far Baraka's worst, and it is still not unwinnable or as bad as an 8-2. Even though KL is tough, there are still things Baraka can do to make the matchup 6-4. I think the problem is some people think 6-4 is like a slight advantage like REO said, but a lot of the community considers 6-4 to be an advantage, while 7-3 is a bigger advantage. People's matchup numbers always vary and they mean different things to different people. which is why people need to stop worrying so much about them and recognize which matchups are bad and how they need to deal with them. Knowing the matchups is MUCh more important than knowing some stupid numbers.
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
Isnt this exactly what I said? The 6-4s are all winnable to a degree, but some require more work than others. A 7-3 IMO means that while you have to put in work as your character, you can make many mistakes and still beat a flawless Baraka or other low tier character. Going along with that, lower tier characters nee to know their bad matchups. You have to know exactly when you can get something off of these characters and get damage or pressure whenever you can. The problem with bumping a bunch of 6-4s to 7-3s and 7-3s to 8-2s is that makes the matchup seem so much worse than it actually is. The Kabal matchup is by far Baraka's worst, and it is still not unwinnable or as bad as an 8-2. Even though KL is tough, there are still things Baraka can do to make the matchup 6-4. I think the problem is some people think 6-4 is like a slight advantage like REO said, but a lot of the community considers 6-4 to be an advantage, while 7-3 is a bigger advantage. People's matchup numbers always vary and they mean different things to different people. which is why people need to stop worrying so much about them and recognize which matchups are bad and how they need to deal with them. Knowing the matchups is MUCh more important than knowing some stupid numbers.
This is why a 10 point scale is stupid for a game with 100 hit points, 3 possible rounds, and hit points that reset on each win but meter that carries over. If some 6-4s are "more winnable" than others, then why shouldn't the matchup chart reflect that?
 

DragonPick

I don't play Runescape
This is why a 10 point scale is stupid for a game with 100 hit points, 3 possible rounds, and hit points that reset on each win but meter that carries over. If some 6-4s are "more winnable" than others, then why shouldn't the matchup chart reflect that?
Out of curiosity, what kind of system would you recommend?
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
Out of curiosity, what kind of system would you recommend?
For overall matchups, a percentage makes the most sense to me. Total damage taken out of 3 rounds should be taken into consideration for each character. The difference between total damage divided by total number of rounds played would be the matchup.

What we also need, though, is some kind of quantification of mobility, zoning, speed, oki, hitbox, mixups, combo output, unbreakables, etc. to really get an objective feel for each character. This really should have been done at the beginning before we started crying for nerfs and buffs.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
For overall matchups, a percentage makes the most sense to me. Total damage taken out of 3 rounds should be taken into consideration for each character. The difference between total damage divided by total number of rounds played would be the matchup.

What we also need, though, is some kind of quantification of mobility, zoning, speed, oki, hitbox, mixups, combo output, unbreakables, etc. to really get an objective feel for each character. This really should have been done at the beginning before we started crying for nerfs and buffs.
That is all much much too complicated. Only the last part might be sort of helpful.

Just know who your bad matchups are and learn how to deal with them. It really is quite that simple.
 

Odoyle

Drops combos
He's not ban worthy but he does hurt the community as far as people continuing to play this game in tournaments. Just my opinion.