Should forward roll be nerfed?

[dribirut]

Which ever way you see it, it’s undeniable that mk11 has the strongest wake up system out of mk9, mkx, injustice 1 and 2. Whether you like that is completely subjective.

 

[dribirut]

Oh I also forgot to mention that the invincible wake up option is 90% of the time safe on block..

I’ve learned to live with the system but I personally think it’s dumb as fuck..

 

[Methysan]

They could also give forward roll a built in attack that knocks down and does a small amount of damage, similar to raw vanish in DBZ.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

the Only thing I hate about roll is the timing window, I end up stance dancing like an idiot and eat big damage.

 

[Methysan]

the Only thing I hate about roll is the timing window, I end up stance dancing like an idiot and eat big damage.

That too. There's no reason you shouldn't be allowed to just hold the wake up option you want like you can in every other modern game. No need to time your tech in DBZ or UNIST, or hit a specific timing to quick rise or back roll in SFV.

 

[Dreamcatcher]

Just because both players can do something doesn't mean it's not a broken mechanic that devolves the game.

Maybe, maybe not. I'll agree to disagree, I just don't think it needs to be changed. However... If they changed it, I would think more precise timing like flawless block requires would make more sense than using an additional meter.

 

[methademic]

No

 

[Marlow]

Nah I think it’s ok.

 

[santanabar]

He must be angry he gets punish for mindlessly trying to 50/50 ppl to death in the corner

 

[DanCock]

leave it alone, its fine the way it is. id be triggered as fuck if it gets touched O_O

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

No forward roll doesn't need a nerf. The reason we have the option is so offense isn't oppressive. You don't want offense to have looping pressure across the cast.
U+3 has armor but is easily avoided and that's why players choose to use forward roll on a read. There are multiple counters to forward roll:
Throw
NJP
NJK
Wait And bait

There is no reason why it should be removed and definitely shouldn't cost twice defensive bars and certainly not one bar of each.
Maybe if it took longer to refill but come on, its incredibly easy to not get beat by it and other options.
Setting back and waiting beats all wakeup options. So he is mad because he over committed to meaty oki and gets blown up. Don't commit to pressing a full combo string with long recovery just poke and wait for roll/U+3 set back and wait then continue pressure.

Defensive options ate good things. There is nothing wrong with it being strong. There are plenty if options to beat it out. Only one way loses: over commitng!

 

[Buster Skruggs]

Really nerf forward roll? I disagree it's a necessary mechanic and just fine as is. Its part of the cycle in this game and suits fine

 

[Darth-Nero]

I think all wakeups should cost more bar, It's so obnoxious that everytime you knock down your opponent you have to play a 33/33/33 guessing game or get blown up. It's bad enough that the oki setups in this game is gutter trash, wakeup rolls are so anticlimactic.

 

[MKF30]

My 2 cents on this. I have no issue with the defensive options....IF they actually worked properly. No point in having 100 options if they don't work most of the time. That being said, I agree with Tom which I may not always,

You're in the corner. Ok, getting bombarded I've too often seen and experienced myself I roll out only to get stuffed by strings anyway. Umm isn't the point of a roll to escape? Sorry, but to me maybe escaping and definitely escaping are two different things. If anything buff the roll, especially in the corner. It's just an escape move, not dodge and attack at the same time like a wake up. If throws are going to stuff them out and punish(which they do) then why can't that be enough? Why do I have to get hit with glitchy, wacky cross up hitboxes and/or get punished still by a crowding opponent? Makes no sense to me.


My personal opinion as to fix them? Simple, A. give them armor B. give them more range similar to Injustice 2, maybe not full screen but far enough to get away from the corner and/or from an opponent on top of you. I see no point is going on about "oh if you get corner trapped, you have rolls to escape" only that's not true half the time. SOMETIMES you escape....and there is where I have a problem with this. C. For God's sake, fix the hitboxes. If someone escapes the corner they should NOT get hit with some lame, reverse, glitched hitbox nonsense.Tundra posted a video that proves why the rolls are broken in a bad way, not OP way btw. This is exactly the thing I'm talking about. Moves should not autotrack you when especially when you're on the other side of the opponent already. This is just stupid. Credit goes to @Tundra81

I don't always agree with Tom Brady/Bill on everything, not everyone will agree on everything obviously but I think he's 100% right here with the way NRS went about the optional MT's, you don't put random shit up that your fans have been waiting for hoping you see your favorite costumes with a randomized, lottery system like MK 11 for rewards. You let the fans choose and give us the option to pay for shit we really want if we want it that bad. That all being said, rolls, wake ups need not cost more than 1 bar. If anything, rolls need to get buffed not nerfed. It's merely an escape move, not a counter move like the wake up attacks. I don't agree with him on costing more meter though, if anything should be less or just one bar of defense.

Which ever way you see it, it’s undeniable that mk11 has the strongest wake up system out of mk9, mkx, injustice 1 and 2. Whether you like that is completely subjective.

Disagree, MK 9's wake ups were much better because you couldn't just mindlessly attack someone while they're down and have the advantage. MK X's were crap so no argument there, or regarding Injustice games, but MK 11's are in between MK 9 and MK X's. Not nearly as good/effective as MK 9 but better than MK X's at least. If whiffed you can get severly punished and they are a bit more timed precise than MK 9's wake ups. But we all have our opinions.

 

[FrankOceansWaifu]

Or just be more patient, like how the game was intended to be.

 

[SLy]

I dont think it needs to be nerfed really. Reduces the amount of setplay. Im cool with that lol

 

[Wigy]

Defensive options are far too strong. Thought this since day one.

 

[Juggs]

I do not feel any wakeup option should be changed. It’s interesting that many people are simultaneously complaining that wakeup options are too good, and also not good enough.

Wakeup attacks are no longer free get off me options that ALSO: launch, have armor and invincibility, and lead to 30%+.

Wakeup u2 is the launcher, but has no armor or invincibility. At the cost of one offensive and defensive bar.

Wakeup u3 does not launch, but has armor and invincibility. At the cost of one offensive and defensive bar.

Delayed wakeup ruins setplay meaty’s, meaty’s in general, if they aren’t prepared for the delayed WU. You also cannot do a wakeup move when you delay the wakeup.

Wakeup rolls cost 1 defensive meter. They expose setplay meaty’s, and meaty’s in general. They can be thrown on reaction or prediction. They can be punished on reaction as long as you aren’t already pressing buttons.

There’s also the other wakeup options. Such as wakeup throw, wakeup jump, wakeup block, wakeup buttons (when on wakeup you press buttons that is usually a s1 into a combo), wakeup duck to counter highs (including grabs), etc.

All those options are great. Having a lot of options will always be a good thing. All options have very clear counterplay.

On the flip side, you need all these options. Oki and the meaty game in MK11 is incredibly strong. The two main options are a meaty mid attack that leads to pressure or a combo, or a throw. There’s other options as well, such as a meaty safe jump. You can even do the d4 xx special, depending on the character. You can even walk up and just block on their wakeup.

So I cannot agree with any proposed changes to the wakeup system. It is not too weak, it is not too strong. The oki/meaty system is also not too weak or too strong. I feel both sides balance out. It becomes primarily a game of yomi, conditioning, reads and even reactions. Every character shouldn’t have one option that covers all other options, imo. I know tech is being discovered where certain characters can do certain things that cover multiple wakeup options. I do not have a problem with anything that I’ve seen so far.

 

[SLy]

Couldnt of said it better. Its pretty much a solid defensive system.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

My 2 cents on this. I have no issue with the defensive options....IF they actually worked properly. No point in having 100 options if they don't work most of the time. That being said, I agree with Tom which I may not always,

You're in the corner. Ok, getting bombarded I've too often seen and experienced myself I roll out only to get stuffed by strings anyway. Umm isn't the point of a roll to escape? Sorry, but to me maybe escaping and definitely escaping are two different things. If anything buff the roll, especially in the corner. It's just an escape move, not dodge and attack at the same time like a wake up. If throws are going to stuff them out and punish(which they do) then why can't that be enough? Why do I have to get hit with glitchy, wacky cross up hitboxes and/or get punished still by a crowding opponent? Makes no sense to me.


My personal opinion as to fix them? Simple, A. give them armor B. give them more range similar to Injustice 2, maybe not full screen but far enough to get away from the corner and/or from an opponent on top of you. I see no point is going on about "oh if you get corner trapped, you have rolls to escape" only that's not true half the time. SOMETIMES you escape....and there is where I have a problem with this. C. For God's sake, fix the hitboxes. If someone escapes the corner they should NOT get hit with some lame, reverse, glitched hitbox nonsense.Tundra posted a video that proves why the rolls are broken in a bad way, not OP way btw. This is exactly the thing I'm talking about. Moves should not autotrack you when especially when you're on the other side of the opponent already. This is just stupid. Credit goes to @Tundra81

I don't always agree with Tom Brady/Bill on everything, not everyone will agree on everything obviously but I think he's 100% right here as he was with the way NRS went about the optional MT's, you don't put random shit up that your fans have been waiting for hoping you see your favorite costumes with a randomized, lottery system like MK 11 for rewards. You let the fans choose and give us the option to pay for shit we really want if we want it that bad. That all being said, rolls, wake ups need not cost more than 1 bar. If anything, rolls need to get buffed not nerfed. It's merely an escape move, not a counter move like the wake up attacks.



Disagree, MK 9's wake ups were much better because you couldn't just mindlessly attack someone while they're down and have the advantage. MK X's were crap so no argument there, or regarding Injustice games, but MK 11's are in between MK 9 and MK X's. Not nearly as good/effective as MK 9 but better than MK X's at least. If whiffed you can get severly punished and they are a bit more timed precise than MK 9's wake ups. But we all have our opinions.

I partly agree but where I differ on this subject is:
Hitboxes are a different issue altogether. Just like if you can't poke online do to lag you don't adjust frame data based off something that isn't even the problem. You are getting hit on wakeup roll because subs F24 hotbox is very large and catches behind him which shouldn't happen. Many characters have these flaws and in my opinion the moves hitbox needs to be changed not the roll.

"Wakeup should cost 2 bars" -Brady

I completely disagree with that suggestion. Defensive options need to be strong. The metal is built around a turn by turn meta and needs to stay that way. On reads the meta allows multiple turns but not by offense alone.
Wake up Roll:
- As it stands wakeup rolls cost 1 defense bar and I feel that is fair since it doesn't launch and opponent can block it or bait it and stuff it with multiple options.
U+3
Has armor against ground moves but is stuffed by njk and air attacks. Since it has armor it cost more.
U+2
Has priority over air attacks and launches but gets beat out by ground atk.
It cost more bars because it launches.

Delay wakeup cost zero bars and can net you a combo if they meaty. Basically the same as roll reward.

All options are beat out by waiting and reacting.

If they take away wake-up strengths like roll certain characters can loop endless pressure and mix on wakeup destroying the back and forth meta.
Brady and others talk about how much they love the neutral but in the same breath act like getting a 50/50 on a player should grant them another turn because they outplayed thier opponent. In reality even the best players can't guess right every time. A mix should never allow loops of pressure just like geras shouldn't be able to loop throw 50/50s or 25/25/25/25s
forward Throw/low/Back throw/command grab.

 

[Error404]

There is nothing wrong with it.

It costs bar.
It can be punished.
All you have to do to not get hit from a roll is just time you're meaty better or use a grab.

LMAO

 

[LightsOut452]

Options that beat or neutralize the forward roll completely:

1. forward throw
2. back throw
3. walk back into meaty
4. walk back into stagger string
5. jump
6. hop
7. block

How is it not enough?

 

[coconutshrimp]

This is not MKX. "Oh man I have to be on my game and actually consider what my opponent might do? gasp that need to be nerfed"

How about slow down, and condition your opponent into letting you pressure them instead of nerfing shit so you can pressure?

rest assured that is more rewarding than having the opponent, and your options too technically, being nerfed so that you don't have to think as much. Scare them into using other options, and punish each of them. if they're too wild with their meter, then go ham when you see they have 0 defense bars

 

[Rozalin1780]

When I read the topic title, I thought surely this would be a joke topic. In what world is having more defensive options on wakeup, each with a specific purpose and counter(s), a bad thing?

 

[MKF30]

I partly agree but where I differ on this subject is:
Hitboxes are a different issue altogether. Just like if you can't poke online do to lag you don't adjust frame data based off something that isn't even the problem. You are getting hit on wakeup roll because subs F24 hotbox is very large and catches behind him which shouldn't happen. Many characters have these flaws and in my opinion the moves hitbox needs to be changed not the roll.

"Wakeup should cost 2 bars" -Brady

I completely disagree with that suggestion. Defensive options need to be strong. The metal is built around a turn by turn meta and needs to stay that way. On reads the meta allows multiple turns but not by offense alone.
Wake up Roll:
- As it stands wakeup rolls cost 1 defense bar and I feel that is fair since it doesn't launch and opponent can block it or bait it and stuff it with multiple options.
U+3
Has armor against ground moves but is stuffed by njk and air attacks. Since it has armor it cost more.
U+2
Has priority over air attacks and launches but gets beat out by ground atk.
It cost more bars because it launches.

Delay wakeup cost zero bars and can net you a combo if they meaty. Basically the same as roll reward.

All options are beat out by waiting and reacting.

If they take away wake-up strengths like roll certain characters can loop endless pressure and mix on wakeup destroying the back and forth meta.
Brady and others talk about how much they love the neutral but in the same breath act like getting a 50/50 on a player should grant them another turn because they outplayed thier opponent. In reality even the best players can't guess right every time. A mix should never allow loops of pressure just like geras shouldn't be able to loop throw 50/50s or 25/25/25/25s
forward Throw/low/Back throw/command grab.

Right, I mean the hitbox being faulty or weird definitely needs tweaking since that shouldn't happen. The rolls however, I still feel should have a bit more range and be safer imo. Like NRS for weeks prior kept going on about "you can roll, you can roll out of the corner or even mid screen if someone's crowding you etc" yet I see people get punished more times than not by rolling regardless of the level of play, seen it online, offline alike. Though I'll admit the really weird things tend to be happening online so hopefully they're connection/lag issues that can be corrected.

Yeah I disagree with him on the 2 bar gig, as well as anyone else who wants that. That's way too much, I shouldn't have to wait a minute or so just to have my entire defensive health bar(2 bars) restored. It's not like the rolls hurt your opponent, it's just an escape tactic and/or maneuverability to escape pressure. I agree with you totally there, I forgot to address that.

Yeah I am all for people punishing someone if they're predictable no doubt, I just want it to be balanced so that it doesn't give one player(this case the aggressor) the advantage otherwise the defensive options become moot if people are finding ways to beat them, know what I mean? Only thing I would tweak bar wise at this point is make the wake up U2 one bar, not two if you miss or get punished or get stuffed out you just wasted 2 bars of your defense. MK 9 there was the one bar system you had to share, and costed meter however since that game allowed for special move wake ups characters like Ermac, KL etc would get full combos being launched with way more damage than this game for two bars. What I liked about it vs. this game is that you had to respect it due to the armor it had, then if if whiffed or was punished on block. This game the armor frames are less and can get stuffed out flat out. That's really where my issue lies with the wake ups and rolls in this game, otherwise I completely agree. One other thing I've noticed nobody has really talked about regarding the U2 especially since U3 had armor and is more of a backoff move. Everyone's U2 is a different animation which makes for a different hitbox, so I think this needs to be addressed. Example, if you take Raiden's U2 vs LK's U2, entirely different animations that seem to have different hitboxes. I think the hitboxes with everyone's U2 should be universal but am not sure this is 100% possible with the animations being different.