Should DLC be temporarily banned from tournaments like mk9/inj not mkxl

[Compbros]

Considering there'll be times where tournaments are played very soon after a games release, Injustice 2 at Combo Breaker for example, I don't see a reason towards banning. We're meant to learn a games' mechanics and gain enough matchup knowledge/experience of 29 characters but no would be saying not to have the game played for a month or so after EVO if it was released in June. Things are also discovered WAY after release like Demo Sonya so there's no real time-frame of when you can know just how good a character is. People knew immediately how good Tanya/Alien were because it was so in your face. Who knew how good Batgirl was until a few months later? Remember how everyone talked about how Kabal wasn't a very good character for the longest? Week of should be an immediate banning, maybe the week before, anything else should be allowed.

 

[ChatterBox]

A couple people said stuff I already wanted to say so I'll qft and expand

Too all the people saying 2 weeks is plenty of time to find all the dirt and broken stuff with a DLC character. I would like to bring up the character of Batgirl.

Batgirl on release had at least 2 infinites. 1 using her bola and character power the other we did not even know existed till she had been out for a year. The JRosa/Sonicfox flying uppercut

Batgirl was released on the 1.03 patch in May 2013. Her flying uppercut infinite was hotfixed (not patched) out of the game May 2014.

And I'm not even including all the other glitches/bugs she had like putting an invisible projectile on you she could mb to launch you/gain plus frames on block at any time.

So ya I'm still against letting dlc rock for at least 2 months at majors. Let them compete in weeklies/online tournaments of the smaller scale. That way at least NRS can see how the character plays in a competitive setting for balance changes. And maybe less knee jerk balance changes.

This is one of many reasons why I miss the injustice era weeklies so badly. You get tournament results and findings and obvious insane frame data adjustments pointed out with low stakes and the stream monsters can eat it up if they want to see the brokeness. Plus it works as a backdoor ad for our scenes.

Tfw you have no idea how these events work.


1 month ban seems fair enough. Imagine if Sektor was allowed to be used at WB, it'd have been plus wake ups and f3 into plus frames galore lmao

To the ppl saying broken stuff gets found early, MKX was clearly your first fighting game. Brb doing Sinestros pushblock combos. How long did Kabal take to take shape, 3-4 months?

Does anyone know the story of T Hawk in SSF2T? He took over a decade of being humorously bad to jump up in the tiers once they found huge tech with him. The point isn't that everything will be found in a month, it's to let everyone learn enough to have a fair shake against the new characters, and tell NRS (who at least appear to be on our side) about the stuff that would keep them banned after a month. Who knows, maybe they'd even tell us when a balance patch is coming so we can keep the character out until we know they'll fit into the game.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I don't think how tourneys work is relevant to the point I was making, which still holds.

The problems which people point out about dlc rocking (which is potential brokeness and not time to lab/ fixes to be applied) are the same that can arise day 1 with initial roster in early tourneys. That's why I think not only dlc should have that 1 month ban, but also the game should have first month without tourneys, for example.

You don't think how tournies work is relevant to changing how they work?...okay.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I dont see the harm in banning a character for 6-8 weeks from tournament play.

The problem is, when new characters are released for a game, you never see them played by serious competitors in tourneys shortly after release... Unless they are broken - Or you have a character loyalist situation where the player has just been waiting for the character they play exclusively to drop - but that's a fringe scenario. Seeing new characters is great, seeing diversity is great, but seeing broken horseshit is demoralizing and disheartening and it, in my opinion, turns prospective players away from the scene - Which is something the FGC as a whole can ill afford.

I dont compete, I'm just a spectator, so speaking from my point of view, the ban is healthy and just plain makes sense. It is very hype to see a new character and new shit, but its not worth undermining the health of the competitive scene for that. If we wanted to help push the DLC (as a thank you to the devs and to aid in sales of a game we enjoy) we could try to set up a side stream or salty suite type situation after or before the primary tournament that's open to the DLC. People get to see the new character and get to watch new shit from top players, but that doesn't interfere with the core tourney.

A quick edit..

Ive read a comment or two saying that when a game is released we should wait to have tourneys because release characters can be broken too and no one knows what's going on..

I understand the logic there, but the situation is different. A new game getting a new tournament is essentially EVERYONE stepping in to this kind of acceptably unknown environment. No one really knows what's going on yet, and you will def have broken (or broken until figured out) stuff flying left and right, but thats when the entire game is new.. In that situation, it can be fine. Not fine in an 'oh no biggie' way, but fine in that since the game doesnt even have a shaken out meta yet, and no one really understands anything yet, broken and broken-seeming stuff is more expected and acceptable. The stakes arent as high either usually and even if they are, everyone is entering in to this with the understanding that none of them know wtf is going on and who is bringing what to the table.

It should also be noted that holding back early tournaments holds back early exposure, which can potentially kill a game before it ever really gets going.

I think early tourneys should absolutely be allowed and even encouraged, but I think there should be some emphasis on the part of the announcers and those in charge of the tournament to kind of reiterate that the game is new and we dont know how things are shaping up yet, etc etc.

 

[ismael4790]

You don't think how tournies work is relevant to changing how they work?...okay.

I'm not talking about changing how tourneys work. Just changing the moment when a game starts its tourney cycle, for the reasoning I made before, the exact same reason that makes people want to ban dlc chars.

There is a total incoherence in banning dlc characters AND at the same time, not having problems with super early tourneys happening.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I'm not talking about changing how tourneys work. Just changing the moment when a game is included in them, for the reasoning I made before, the exact same reason that makes people want to ban dlc chars.

That's literally changing how they work. Tournies have to make money (hence entrance fees) so that they can keep running. If you remove a game from an event, you change the entire dynamic of how much they are willing to put into prize pools and just in general, making them make less money. Not to mention we already have a small ass community, pausing our tournies because launch characters might broken loses competitors and people who play for a living, lose their job.

 

[ismael4790]

That's literally changing how they work. Tournies have to make money (hence entrance fees) so that they can keep running. If you remove a game from an event, you change the entire dynamic of how much they are willing to put into prize pools and just in general, making them make less money. Not to mention we already have a small ass community, pausing our tournies because launch characters might broken loses competitors and people who play for a living, lose their job.

Then don't remove it: We know release date of the game with A TON of anticipation, Would it be really that hard to move dates of tourneys to happen starting from 1 month since release?

What we are debating here is if we want a fair play, if we don't want aliens or tanyas to break dreams and make people waste time and money to lose vs stupid shit that was not seen through.

And that is highly likely to happen not only if dlc is not banned, but also with early tourneys, because aliens or tanyas can exist day one. So Dlc is part of the problem, not all of it.

 

[Blade4693]

Yeah it is fun to see somebody get bopped by a broken exploit nobody knew about every once and a while but that simply isn't fair to people who dedicate their own time, money and funds to travel and compete. I am not a competitor myself but I sure as hell wouldn't even bother booking a flight, hotel etc. if I knew some straight up broken shit was in the game. I don't mean something strong or really good, like legit broken/an exploit.

By allowing overnight dlc in tourneys you are essentially allowing this stuff to happen. In my opinion,there should be a small period where the new characters are not allowed in tourneys so anything stoopid can be found, and hopefully patched out.

That's my take on it. It's sometimes funny to watch, but not fair to the people actually traveling and competing.

 

[neveradestroyer]

I'm not big fan of the current Injustice ( because no Sinestro no Injustice for me) but, not even I would want this game to die so fast because some salty scrubs don't want DLC chars to be played. If that happens, It would be the most stupid decision ever. End rant

 

[Solid]

I voted NO, but to be fair I don't think a day 1 character should be allowed. A character should be out for at least 1 month minimum to be allowed in tournament. That is very reasonable and should give enough time to find out what said character is about.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Then don't remove it: We know release date of the game with A TON of anticipation, Would it be really that hard to move dates of tourneys to happen starting from 1 month since release?

What we are debating here is if we want a fair play, if we don't want aliens or tanyas to break dreams and make people waste time and money to lose vs stupid shit.

And that is highly likely to happen not only if dlc is not banned, but also with early tourneys.

Scheduling when a tourney is isn't as simple as "Just move it bro" there's a lot of planning that goes into it. Not to mention your idea completely halts any sort of hype the game has. People hate waiting for hype and majors, should be, the epitome of the hype we have. Viewers want to see the new game, player want to compete in the new game, best not to keep them waiting. In the case of DLC, not only has NRS shown that their DLC characters tend to be gigantic outliers of balance on release, but it's also a difference of time. Example, you grab the season pass for Injustice 2, it's assumed you're getting characters early. Which means you get more time with the character than others who just buy them on release. Distinct advantage goes to the dude with more time. And who knows maybe due to extenuating circumstances you can't even get your hands on the DLC character. Even more of a disadvantage. This is not possible with the full game. With the full game everyone has access to the whole roster from the get go.

 

[ismael4790]

Scheduling when a tourney is isn't as simple as "Just move it bro" there's a lot of planning that goes into it. Not to mention your idea completely halts any sort of hype the game has. People hate waiting for hype and majors, should be, the epitome of the hype we have. Viewers want to see the new game, player want to compete in the new game, best not to keep them waiting. In the case of DLC, not only has NRS shown that their DLC characters tend to be gigantic outliers of balance on release, but it's also a difference of time. Example, you grab the season pass for Injustice 2, it's assumed you're getting characters early. Which means you get more time with the character than others who just buy them on release. Distinct advantage goes to the dude with more time. And who knows maybe due to extenuating circumstances you can't even get your hands on the DLC character. Even more of a disadvantage. This is not possible with the full game. With the full game everyone has access to the whole roster from the get go.

The "hype" point is a bad one, because it's exactly the one someone advocating for letting dlc rock would use.

If it is so hard to move them, then it's sad, because early tournaments have the most potential to be really fraudulent in that case.

 

[CrazyFingers]

I'm not big fan of the current Injustice ( because no Sinestro no Injustice for me) but, not even I would want this game to die so fast because some salty scrubs don't want DLC chars to be played. If that happens, It would be the most stupid decision ever. End rant

That is such a massive over simplication of the situation it boggles my mind. It's not that people are being salty, it's that the people competing dont want to lose to on release Tanyas, Predators or Aliens in tourney ever again. This isn't about salt it's about paying money to lose in tourney when shit like that exists.

 

[CrazyFingers]

The "hype" point is a bad one, because it's exactly the one someone advocating for letting dlc rock would use.

I literally explained the rest of my argument but cherry picking is cool too.

 

[Ostin]

A month is a perfectly fine wait time for Dlc characters to be legal, unless they release them more than 1 at a time, then more time is probably needed. Having more than 1 month for single characters seems excessive to me, I think everyone could settle on a standard for 1 month whether you are for temporary bans or not

Just want to note I'm at least going to evo and cb(probably Texas stuff too) so this decision effects us random pot monsters too.

 

[Indecisive]

Then don't remove it: We know release date of the game with A TON of anticipation, Would it be really that hard to move dates of tourneys to happen starting from 1 month since release?

What we are debating here is if we want a fair play, if we don't want aliens or tanyas to break dreams and make people waste time and money to lose vs stupid shit that was not seen through.

And that is highly likely to happen not only if dlc is not banned, but also with early tourneys, because aliens or tanyas can exist day one. So Dlc is part of the problem, not all of it.

Did you think before writing this? Do you know how hard it is to plan events. A lot of the events are set on the specific dates because thats the only time they can get the hotel, convention center, etc. Delaying them may not even possible. That and people already have taken time off for these events, booked rooms, flights, etc. This includes events that are months away such as combo breaker, ceo, evo. I have had my hotel booked and ticket bought for combo breaker since march. Im sure people have had there stuff booked since even before that. Delaying a tournament is literally not an option.

 

[ismael4790]

I literally explained the rest of my argument but cherry picking is cool too.

I was only highlighting the worst point.

There are others too: everybody concerned about the things discussed in this thread will get the dlc characters the earliest day possible, specially competitors that don't want to hold themselves back. So everybody interested gets them at the same time. It's not about who has more time to test. It's about if we actually give time to test. And if it is done with dlc, coherence dictates it should be done with initial roster.

 

[ismael4790]

Did you think before writing this? Do you know how hard it is to plan events. A lot of the events are set on the specific dates because thats the only time they can get the hotel, convention center, etc. Delaying them may not even possible. That and people already have taken time off for these events, booked rooms, flights, etc. This includes events that are months away such as combo breaker, ceo, evo. I have had my hotel booked and ticket bought for combo breaker since march. Im sure people have had there stuff booked since even before that. Delaying a tournament is literally not an option.

If it's not possible, then it's sad because it generates the exact same type of problems that we try to avoid when banning dlc.

Maybe for the future, if we know when nrs games are usually released, then dates could be fixed to give that 1 month of testing. I definitely think it would increase the quality of first tourneys.

But then people with early access to the game wouldn't have so much advantage...

 

[CrimsonShadow]

My main question about this is, "What happens when that period is over? Who decides what stays or goes?"

The reason I ask is, the community often hasn't been on one accord about a character *until that character's prowess was on display in a tournament*. Before then we get rumors, rebellos, sone people saying it's broke, other people saying they can deal with it and everyone else needs to level up, and there's often no patch (or a minor patch that doesn't completely address the issue).

Then the tournament itself ends up being the catalyst that gets everyone on the same page.

So my question to @Pig Of The Hut, @A F0xy Grampa @PLAYING TO WIN and others, is if you really think that after a 1-month period of not having a character displayed in tournament, that this community can honestly come together and make a coherent and firm decision that is clearly communicated to TOs about whether the DLC will be allowed (if it hasn't been patched to everyone's satisfaction yet). The community's history says no.

Remember that both Tanya and Scorpion received earlier nerfs, and that only after the non-vanilla versions caused a major ruckus were they nerfed again into their final forms. It's food for thought.

 

[ForeverKing]

So does a DLC character that releases day 1 with the rest of the cast, for example Dark Seid or Goro count? I mean they are technically DLC, but if they release day 1 then they should be allowed in any tournaments I believe. They are in the same boat as any other non-DLC character that released day 1

 

[Swindle]

Two months is too much.

Two weeks to break'em in.

Banned indefinitely if they turn out to be broke.

Two months isn't too much, Solomonope Gowrongdy.

 

[zerosebaz]

I don't think the argument for a 1 month ban should be brokenness. The problem is that by the time DLC characters are released, the people using said DLC know what the base roster can do, and how to fight against it, while the people using the base roster have 0 experience against the DLC, and have no idea what they can do, or how to fight them.

The fact that NRS usually releases broken DLC is an aggravant to this situation, but not the main reason DLC should be banned.

 

[SHAOLIN]

So does a DLC character that releases day 1 with the rest of the cast, for example Dark Seid or Goro count? I mean they are technically DLC, but if they release day 1 then they should be allowed in any tournaments I believe. They are in the same boat as any other non-DLC character that released day 1

I always consider pre-order characters, day one characters. . . there's no real difference.

 

[Crusty]

Two months is too much.

Two weeks to break'em in.

Banned indefinitely if they turn out to be broke.

And let people place in tournament just by having a unfair advantage should they broke all along? Or not place should they turn out to be unviable?

Not only is that potentially frauding the player, it could get characters nerfed or buffed crazy.

It's begging for trouble.

 

[Cossner]

Then don't remove it: We know release date of the game with A TON of anticipation, Would it be really that hard to move dates of tourneys to happen starting from 1 month since release?

What we are debating here is if we want a fair play, if we don't want aliens or tanyas to break dreams and make people waste time and money to lose vs stupid shit that was not seen through.

And that is highly likely to happen not only if dlc is not banned, but also with early tourneys, because aliens or tanyas can exist day one. So Dlc is part of the problem, not all of it.

Yes, it'd be really hard to move a major event where the TO's rented the space months ahead, advertised the dates, scheduled staff and stands, cancel every other game (sf, marvel, tekken, anime games, smash, pokken, etc etc), tell all those people who already bought airplanes, buses and hotels to cancel them because injustice, that isn't even a main game, will ban a dlc character that was released a week before the tournament.

Tfw you're super disconnected from reality.