General/Other - Shinnok Shinnok General Discussion Thread

[keo-bas]

Shinnok doesnt seem strong in the pressure game but maybe mid range?

Those rising fireball seem good, the ex version allow him to convert from many situations.

Maybe his combo shold priroriste other stuff than damage. Positioning?

This game has Interactable so we should consider how well shinnok can use these. He has telleports so taking advantage of them should be feasible

 

[OG Mannimal]

F2 is great, it's a fast, extremely far-advancing normal. 4 is good as well. I'm happy with his d2 also.

I feel like his combo potential isn't that great, but his zoning is also mediocre. How are you guys playing him?

I'm having trouble opening people up as well

 

[regulas]

F2 is great, it's a fast, extremely far-advancing normal. 4 is good as well. I'm happy with his d2 also.

I feel like his combo potential isn't that great, but his zoning is also mediocre. How are you guys playing him?

I'm having trouble opening people up as well

Necro: Flick flick flick, the odd judgment if they are blocking too much. Hellspark punish any effort of there's to get in. It's on the whole pretty easy unless they are a teleporter.

Boneshaper: Havn't gotten enough versus with this yet but it's all about the range and punish. With the fast df2 you can pretty much punish anything whatsoever anywhere on the field. Otherwise maximise the range on strings. Avoid using specials except to punish.

Imposter: Yell out loud that you are most certanly their lover and trying to claim otherwise is ridiculous, then run away because you can't do anything useful in a fight.

 

[Ugodimak]

F2 is great, it's a fast, extremely far-advancing normal. 4 is good as well. I'm happy with his d2 also.

I feel like his combo potential isn't that great, but his zoning is also mediocre. How are you guys playing him?

I'm having trouble opening people up as well

Which variation are you playing? Because I think his zoning in Necromancer is pretty damn good.

My only real gripe is that if timed right, an opponent can pretty much run right by his flick, so you have to mix it up with his other tools so you're not too predictable.

Shinnok definitely has tools in that variation from midrange and fullscreen, but up-close he kinda gets overwhelmed by pressure.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Hey guys, I've been playing a lot with Necromancer Shinnok. I'm just wondering if anyone has any useful setups with his judgement hand special. The only thing I can come up with is throwing it out immediately after a MB Shoulder charge. I can't find anything else that is guaranteed or near guaranteed. 57 frames is just such a slow startup.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Which variation are you playing? Because I think his zoning in Necromancer is pretty damn good.

My only real gripe is that if timed right, an opponent can pretty much run right by his flick, so you have to mix it up with his other tools so you're not too predictable.

Shinnok definitely has tools in that variation from midrange and fullscreen, but up-close he kinda gets overwhelmed by pressure.

Totally agree. I think this is spot on. His zoning in Necromancer is very, very good, it's just non-traditional and takes some getting used to. Hell sparks is a tremendous "get the fuck away from me" tool and Flick is a very good full screen option. I just wish his falling judgement hand special had slightly reduced startup. (Although that would probably easily make him OP).

Also, up close I've been abusing his B3 low poke and his MB Amulet Strike.

 

[Juggs]

I'm going to update this thread when I get home, but make sure when you're posting combos or anything, you label which variation it's in. Not all variations have the same normals/strings.

 

[Youphemism]

Whenever I've been playing Necromancer against my training partner I can't get anything to connect on block because he can just run right past it, it's insane! I REALLY wish EX Hell Sparks was at least safe, even if normal Hell Sparks were -15 or something if all three connect on block that would help him out a lot.

 

[regulas]

Hey guys, I've been playing a lot with Necromancer Shinnok. I'm just wondering if anyone has any useful setups with his judgement hand special. The only thing I can come up with is throwing it out immediately after a MB Shoulder charge. I can't find anything else that is guaranteed or near guaranteed. 57 frames is just such a slow startup.

I mostly use it as a replacement for flick after training them to block. It's not usable on those who favor evasion, but if they prep to block flick and instead you do judgment then by the time they realise they need to or can move it's too late.

The one I find least useful is the 4 one, it's only advantage over flick seems to be ex for combo.

Whenever I've been playing Necromancer against my training partner I can't get anything to connect on block because he can just run right past it, it's insane! I REALLY wish EX Hell Sparks was at least safe, even if normal Hell Sparks were -15 or something if all three connect on block that would help him out a lot.

Try altering your flick timing, delaying it occasionally so he might dash before it's tracked and therfore catch him. Or if you know where he's moving you can look at a punish on him.

 

[Wemfs]

Shinnok doesnt seem strong in the pressure game but maybe mid range?

Those rising fireball seem good, the ex version allow him to convert from many situations.

Maybe his combo shold priroriste other stuff than damage. Positioning?

This game has Interactable so we should consider how well shinnok can use these. He has telleports so taking advantage of them should be feasible

I agree. He doesn't feel like a strong in your face pressure character. I think mid range is where he wants to be.

I think it's absolutely vital to convert off of any rising fireball that connects since he doesn't feel like a high dmging combo character.

And I think his string where he resets the opponent in Bone Shaper is something to be looked into. Leaves both opponents neutral, but it's a chance to open up your opponent once again.. or at the very least get more pressure or a throw attempt.

He doesn't have any overhead combo starters, but he does have a 6 frame low starter and an almost FULL SCREEN low special attack (Bone Shaper), although very punishable, looks like it can be used to punish some things from far range and also catch anyone trying to jump from afar.

In Bone Shaper you can also get unbreakable damage with his Gandalf-like "You shall not pass" special after any knockdown... you must MB it though since the meterless version doesn't connect. I can see the meterless version of this being used to catch backdashes.

 

[True Grave]

Some Bone Shaper Combos

After his F221+3 you get a free Mixup, but you're neutral so armour can stop you if you try to vortex them. It's best to either d4~db2 for push advantage or block and see how your opponent reacts. This is safe on block. <--(see second paragraph in edit section-

Edit: The ender of df2 (2nd Combo) will position your opponent so that you an B3, F3 and guaranteed D4 as long as they don't tech roll, wake-up (ex too), and possibly a delayed wake-up. I'm going to try and see the timing on d4 and see what wake-ups can be stuffed.

The ender of the 5th combo (first combo) creates a standing reset and allows for potential Mixups. The second part to that combo is to show a vortex with his b3 because of the low starter.

Another thing to look at is the range on his 1 in the strings f31d2 (b31d2) because it covers a jump range and can confirm into df2 or db2...full combo. Lastly, if you're at mid-full screen and your opponent is condition to your db2 range or respects it you can run cancel into his b3. If you read that they're going to block then you can always d4~db2 for spacing.

His D4 is godlike in this variation and has the hitbox of say MK9 Sonya/Mileena.

 

[SplitMushroom]

So after reading, it seems like Boneshaper and Necromancer have more options than Imposter. I really enjoy the Imposter variation, but other than B3 and the 1123 knockdown, I can't really open people up. The lack of overheads in that variation is a buzzkill for me.

 

[OG Mannimal]

Imposter is actually really good against some characters, like I'm pretty sure we get an unblockable OTg vs Goro

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Honestly you kinda don't need to, or at least you don't actually NEED to do the teleport most of the time. You can usually just neutral jump or forward jump and get the same result. The pro's of the teleport are that it might confuse people (doubtful) and it'll build some meter, but the nj2 is - on block. If you just do a forward jump and get the j1 you get a free block string and technically a better combo.

well id assume that the teleport is helping me get my timing right for the meaty so they can't poke out or some shit. id figure not having the teleport animation and needing to wait a little bit would be a lot harder to time properly when here im just holding up and then doing the teleport low to the ground.

 

[Eji1700]

well id assume that the teleport is helping me get my timing right for the meaty so they can't poke out or some shit. id figure not having the teleport animation and needing to wait a little bit would be a lot harder to time properly when here im just holding up and then doing the teleport low to the ground.

It's pretty forgiving in practice. They're stuck in the mimic animation for what feels like forever, in that MK "you can't do anything but block' state. Not saying it isn't worth learning, but often times you might find it better to space the jump in instead so you don't do the nj2.

 

[Shamwow0w0w]

It's pretty forgiving in practice. They're stuck in the mimic animation for what feels like forever, in that MK "you can't do anything but block' state. Not saying it isn't worth learning, but often times you might find it better to space the jump in instead so you don't do the nj2.

If you're not using the tele-neutral jump part then it's a lot easier for the opponent to wait for you to land to block low since you'll be facing the wrong direction on cross up. If this mixup becomes a staple to Imposter Shinnoks game then it will be such an easy fuzzy guard without the teleport.
The reason why this mixup is viable is because you teleport so low that either it's a 7 frame neutral jump punch or land almost instantly and do a 5 frame low.

 

[Eji1700]

If you're not using the tele-neutral jump part then it's a lot easier for the opponent to wait for you to land to block low since you'll be facing the wrong direction on cross up. If this mixup becomes a staple to Imposter Shinnoks game then it will be such an easy fuzzy guard without the teleport.
The reason why this mixup is viable is because you teleport so low that either it's a 7 frame neutral jump punch or land almost instantly and do a 5 frame low.

Yeah i've done some more testing and I can see a few situations where it might matter. I've also noticed that you can technically do double overheads with shinnok thanks to his teleport.

if you do a jP/K (not neutral) you can cancel on block into teleport and go for a second overhead or the landing into the low. However the main issue is that a lot of reversal's will beat this out, and i'm not sure if the game will autocorrect reversal inputs. Further if you were going for a jP and actually hit you'll lose the combo.

 

[BookBurning]

As much spacing potential as bone shaper has ; is it safe spacing? I've been messing around with Shinnok quite awhile now and I honestly think bone shaper is just too slow to be that viable. :|

 

[True Grave]

His 22 in the corner after you meterburn db2 (no neutral punch) will reverse his inputs and allow you for more damage/zoning (end with db2), or end with df2 to return them to the corner for pressure and Mixup game. Refer to post #61 in my video for visuals.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Some Bone Shaper Combos

After his F221+3 you get a free Mixup, but you're neutral so armour can stop you if you try to vortex them. It's best to either d4~db2 for push advantage or block and see how your opponent reacts. This is safe on block. <--(see second paragraph in edit section-

Edit: The ender of df2 (2nd Combo) will position your opponent so that you an B3, F3 and guaranteed D4 as long as they don't tech roll, wake-up (ex too), and possibly a delayed wake-up. I'm going to try and see the timing on d4 and see what wake-ups can be stuffed.

The ender of the 5th combo (first combo) creates a standing reset and allows for potential Mixups. The second part to that combo is to show a vortex with his b3 because of the low starter.

Another thing to look at is the range on his 1 in the strings f31d2 (b31d2) because it covers a jump range and can confirm into df2 or db2...full combo. Lastly, if you're at mid-full screen and your opponent is condition to your db2 range or respects it you can run cancel into his b3. If you read that they're going to block then you can always d4~db2 for spacing.

His D4 is godlike in this variation and has the hitbox of say MK9 Sonya/Mileena.

my question here with this whole vortex thing is i dont understand where the guessing game is. what stops them from just blocking low? i can see how it gives free pressure and you can continue your offense and def will catch anyone trying to push buttons and maybe a throw/button 50/50 but i dont see what makes them not just block low so they don't get put back into standing at neutral.

 

[legion666]

Do yourself a favor and pick Imposter vs Jax.... He gets his ground pound and can aim it. He can end a combo with Mimicry and ground pound before they can even jump for a free reset. It's atleast 60% for one bar midscreen.

He also gets a guarenteed 50/50 vs Quan and Scorpion after after 30% or 40% depending on overhead or low. <~~ repeated until blocked correctly. Don't wanna throw the word vortex around but it's pretty much a vortex lol

I'm still testing vs the rest of the roster. Probably gonna upload some vids soon.

Does he get the Ground Pound that launches for a juggle from Jax???? If so then it's a death loop )) 'cause you can end that juggle in mimicry again and go for this reset again) I am just theorizing because I am yet to get my hands on MKX

 

[True Grave]

my question here with this whole vortex thing is i dont understand where the guessing game is. what stops them from just blocking low? i can see how it gives free pressure and you can continue your offense and def will catch anyone trying to push buttons and maybe a throw/button 50/50 but i dont see what makes them not just block low so they don't get put back into standing at neutral.

Nothing, but you can condition your opponent that way. That allows you to use your hell sparks for the pushback (which is punishable) for spacing. The Mixup comes from low starters/grabs and hit confirms on his 1 (about jump range) in the f3/b3 strings.

If he had an OH starter then he'd have 50/50s but usually I condition them and then create space so I can run in with b3. Or I'll instant run then df2 because of the startup speed and distance it covers.

 

[stealthychainsawninja]

Does he get the Ground Pound that launches for a juggle from Jax???? If so then it's a death loop )) 'cause you can end that juggle in mimicry again and go for this reset again) I am just theorizing because I am yet to get my hands on MKX

It launches him, but Shinnok is unable to do a Mimicry during a combo if he hits with a ground pound. It's still an extra ~35% meterless after the guaranteed reset though.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Okay so i labbed the shit out of @Shamwow0w0w 's vortex and ive come to the conclusion that its 100% legit. I've been in the process of making notes for each character, who you get the vortex on, who gives you a shitty move that you shouldn't even both with and whatnot. first few things i want to point out is that the low will 100% of the time be unsafe. there are still a few characters that i need to test out but i highly doubt this will change given the number of characters i haven't tested out yet. if you are afraid of taking mad damage from the low being blocked but don't feel confident in the overhead you can always land and grab. the overhead combo ive been going for is pretty much always meterless. the combos you do are pretty similar for each character so its not as big of a pain in the ass as i thought it was going to be. some characters however, can't combo in this streamlined way but might still be able to get vortex if you combine it with running, haven't figured that out yet but so far theres only 2 characters that ive ran into that i thought they might be able to combo into mimicry different, those being Erron Black, who steals the anti air sand, and Jacqui Briggs who steals bionic dash. its also worth taking note that even though you don't get vortex on certain characters, you still get a 50/50 off of everyone, and they straight up have to hold that shit

for the overhead for every character you pretty much do teleport 2 ji2 f22 stolen move then whatever string connects then cancel it into mimicry. theres a little bit of toying around to do but thats about it. overhead starters do anywhere from 26-30%

for low meterless you do b3 right into stolen move. if it gives you a restand you do njp ji2 f22 mimicry. pretty much standard meterless low starter. a lot of stolen moves however will whiff after b3. meterless options off of the low starter hit anywhere from 20-27%

for low starter with 1 bar you do b3 ex hellsparks ji2 teleport 2 f2/f22 stolen move then whatever string connects then cancel it into mimicry. 1 bar options take away anywhere from 33-39%

characters that get the vortex that can get a meterless low starter:
mileena, scorpion, ermac, quan chi, shinnok (you just keep doing mimicry so yeah lololol)

characters that get the vortex but must use a bar to get the vortex off a low starter:
kung lao, kitana, kotal kahn, sub zero (dont have an optimized combo for him yet, damage seems to be shitty)

characters that don't get vortex (usually because the stolen move grants a knockdown)
jax (but unblockable setups so who gives a fuck), sonya, kenshi, takeda, cassie cage, kung jin, johnny cage, ferra/torr, d'vorah, raiden, kano, goro, reptile (cannot get mimicry off of low but can off of overhead)

not sure
erron black, jacqui briggs

anyway, I want to give a huge shoutout to Shamwoww0w0w for giving me something to do today and keep me up till 5:20 am when i have class at 9:50am

 

[legion666]

Okay so i labbed the shit out of @Shamwow0w0w 's vortex and ive come to the conclusion that its 100% legit. I've been in the process of making notes for each character, who you get the vortex on, who gives you a shitty move that you shouldn't even both with and whatnot. first few things i want to point out is that the low will 100% of the time be unsafe. there are still a few characters that i need to test out but i highly doubt this will change given the number of characters i haven't tested out yet. if you are afraid of taking mad damage from the low being blocked but don't feel confident in the overhead you can always land and grab. the overhead combo ive been going for is pretty much always meterless. the combos you do are pretty similar for each character so its not as big of a pain in the ass as i thought it was going to be. some characters however, can't combo in this streamlined way but might still be able to get vortex if you combine it with running, haven't figured that out yet but so far theres only 2 characters that ive ran into that i thought they might be able to combo into mimicry different, those being Erron Black, who steals the anti air sand, and Jacqui Briggs who steals bionic dash. its also worth taking note that even though you don't get vortex on certain characters, you still get a 50/50 off of everyone, and they straight up have to hold that shit

for the overhead for every character you pretty much do teleport 2 ji2 f22 stolen move then whatever string connects then cancel it into mimicry. theres a little bit of toying around to do but thats about it. overhead starters do anywhere from 26-30%

for low meterless you do b3 right into stolen move. if it gives you a restand you do njp ji2 f22 mimicry. pretty much standard meterless low starter. a lot of stolen moves however will whiff after b3. meterless options off of the low starter hit anywhere from 20-27%

for low starter with 1 bar you do b3 ex hellsparks ji2 teleport 2 f2/f22 stolen move then whatever string connects then cancel it into mimicry. 1 bar options take away anywhere from 33-39%

characters that get the vortex that can get a meterless low starter:
mileena, scorpion, ermac, quan chi, shinnok (you just keep doing mimicry so yeah lololol)

characters that get the vortex but must use a bar to get the vortex off a low starter:
kung lao, kitana, kotal kahn, sub zero (dont have an optimized combo for him yet)

characters that don't get vortex (usually because the stolen move grants a knockdown)
jax (but unblockable setups so who gives a fuck), sonya, kenshi, takeda, cassie cage, kung jin, johnny cage, ferra/torr, d'vorah, raiden, kano

not sure
erron black, jacqui briggs, reptile

not tested
goro

anyway, I want to give a huge shoutout to Shamwoww0w0w for giving me something to do today and keep me up till 5:20 am when i have class at 9:50am

Great stuff! I am mostly interested in Impostor so this tech will be very important. So I was said that with Jax you can't Mimicry in a combo out of Ground Pound( which is understandable lol) but do you get it after doing Erons anti air sand bomb? I guess you have to go for big damage while your damage boost lasts for those characters Shinnok can't get a vortex on:/