What's new

She's fun but is she viable...

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
So I've been labbing her all week pretty intensely and I'm noticing some serious issues with her.
We've talked about her finicky bombs with their bad range but looking at other aspects than her special moves, here's what Im noticing:
  1. Her lack of OH ..... Deleted this point because its moot. There are other ways of opening people up than with an OH. Past Kindred was short-sighted here.
  2. Her Krushing Blows blow. Talking about the midscreen. With many characters doing a minimum around 40% dmg, some, like Raiden, even pulling off 50% off a KB, her midscreen options for D2 or B2212 KB lead to shit. It makes them almost not worth doing. Better to wait to be in the corner to get some significant dmg, but being in such a situation in a guaranteed so putting your eggs in that basket is a risk other characters dont have to worry about.
  3. S1 & S3 range & Punishing issues. Someone can pokes you and you block it. You predict that the opponent, despite having their poke blocked, will go into a string, so you throw out a fast S1 or S3 and they, of course come out first, but their range is so bad that they whiff, allowing the opponent's string to hit confirm u instead. Also certain punishes work in some situation and in others they dont. Im not talking about a situation where you need to punish Scorpion's teleport with S1 but Sub's slide with S4. Thats cool and part of the game. Im talking about have to figure out the input for situations like these:
    .. I dont think this was intentional by NRS.
  4. Her dmg output midscreen isnt great in Frost-Byte. Frost-Byte is limited in terms of combo extension. Ice Machine has the Burst and can consistently get from 270 to 320 dmg. Yes, you need to use meter but that's what its there for so that doesnt bother me.
  5. What's her style? ......As perfectly said by @Hendrixson :
    She's a space-control monster with incredible counter-zoning and one of the best projectiles in the game in Ice Machine's DB2. Most of her options are safe. Moving against her is incredibly dangerous. Everyone's gonna play her differently but that's an excellent foundation. Build off of that. Sorry she's not as easy to classify as 'zoner' or 'rushdown' but that's what makes her so fun.
  6. No good AA options. The only consistent AA is D2. Others, like D3 or S3 dont leed to significantly more dmg. This bothers me mainly for Frost-Byte because I throw a bomb and I read their Jump in but can only uppercut them. I can't set up another setup because they get up too fast and Im too far nor can I significantly punish their jump. With Ice-Machine, I feel it is less of an issue.
I still love the character & out of all the roster, shes the only one that interests me so I want to be wrong. If someone has found something, anything, especially in terms of punishing, I would love to know. I'm not saying I want all this to be buffed so she can become S-tier. Far from it. But give me something to strike fear in my opponent's heart. Give me something that wont make ppl do unsafe shit or poke out of turn for free.

But anyway, what do you guys think?
 
Last edited:

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
And didn't they buff her d3 to become 8f?
Dont think so and I dont even mind of the slowness of her pokes but give me some decent hit advantage to start my pressure or give me a more consistent S1 and not one that has the range of her nose
 

Braindead

I want Kronika to step on my face
Royal Contributor
If you look at the rest of the cast you'll see this low hit advantage on pokes is almost universal.





Except the select few top tier chars who play a different game
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
If you look at the rest of the cast you'll see this low hit advantage on pokes is almost universal.
Except the select few top tier chars who play a different game
ok if thats the case then thats fine. I think my biggest gripe is the S1's range. Someone can poke frost and if she blocks it and reads that the person, despite having their poke blocked, will go into a string, her S1 will come out first (of course) but will whiff, allowing their string to hit confirm u instead.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Honestly I think a few of these are just you not adjusting to the game. This isn't MKX. Various characters do not have a standing overhead(technically they all do with short hop, don't sleep on that mechanic, frosts hop~2 seems good), the same could be said about damage output and krushing blows.

Look at the beta, out of the 5 characters, the only one with a standing overhead that could combo was Jade. Jade's overhead is good, but it's 28 frames of startup. Scorpion's overhead is safe, but it's slower and doesn't do much damage. Skarlet's has range and a KB, but it's unsafe. Would Scorpion and Skarlet become bad characters if you just completely removed their overheads? Probably not. Kabal doesn't have a standing overhead, but don't be surprised to see him be a consistently strong character through out the game.

You talk about her punishes being weak, and she does have a bit of that "Bo' Rai Cho" factor where she can't always get an ideal punish, but she's got the tools to get it done, and he F2 and Auger Lunge allow her to punish things that a lot of the cast probably can't, notably many Fatal Blows that have a lot of pushback. You mentioned Sub Zero's Slide being tough to punish, well you have a 16 frame launcher in B3, use it. I'm sure there's some punishes here and there that she might have trouble with but it's not the super punishable stuff like teleports and slides. There's also flawless block attacks to consider.

"You predict that the opponent, despite having their poke blocked, will go into a string, so you throw out a fast S1 or S3 and they, of course come out first, but their range is so bad that they whiff, allowing the opponent's string to hit confirm u instead."

I'm sure that's nice to stop people going hard on poke reads but you've always been taking a risk doing that when the opponent can just double poke, d2(which would lead to a lot of damage in this game) or possibly back up and whiff punish you. If you are that confident that they will throw something out you can reversal throw, poke, d2, backup... You got other options after that. She certainly does have T-rex arms on certain normals, but she has has other stuff to use.


"What's her style? Is she a zoner? Not really, her projectiles are slow. If anything she has a strong anti-zoning game with Ice Machine. Is she a rushdown character? With pokes like these, a lack of OH, inconsistent punishes, not really. If you do rushdown with her, be prepared to do a lot of grabs. Defensive player? Not really with the bad punish damage output. It seems like she excels at spacing. Her spacing tools are amazing. ok cool. So you are spacing the opponent, waiting for your time to strike. He tries to do something but your superior range with B2 catches him. Excited, you continue the string B2212, get a KB aaaaand poop damage output cuz your midscreen."

You're just being negative. Does she need to fit into a nice archetype to be good? I see her as the "wacky robot girl" and they just designed her with high points and low points.

Could she be bad? Maybe, I haven't learned the whole cast yet and I don't like saying stuff like that without being confident. I could see her being good or bad. But I think the way you are viewing the game is making you think she's worse than she really is. And it's not just you, I think a lot of people are still adjusting to the frames in the new poking meta and the toned down offense.
 

Darth Mao

Setups Addict; Your Tech is Mine!
Her punish damage output sucks. Her fastest starter, S1, has such bad range that if the opponent's unsafe attack has a bit of pushback, it will make S1 whiff, same story with S3. B1 and B2 are very slow so punishing a lot of moves is very tight (ex Sub-zero's slide). S2 has potential in Ice Machine if you burst right after but in Frost-Byte, you gotta do 224 for the most damage (139). You are left with S4, which is decent but you absolutely need meter to punish for a significant amount and that only works with Ice Machine because of the Burst. If you dont use meter, you get a wonderful 19% with 44~spin. Compared to the vast majority of characters that have a fast advancing mid that leads to high damage, this sucks.
s1 whiffs but f1 punish Sub's Slide, lab again
 

Law Hero

I. Hear. A. Sound.
As someone who's been playing Frost exclusively since the game dropped, I'm inclined to agree. I think all your points are rather valid.

I don't know how well the rest of the cast truly fares since the game is so new, but it does feel like an uphill battle. Despite her "anti-zoning" tools, I think she gets zoned out really easily by characters that can shoot air projectiles, projectiles with above-average hitstun, or multiple projectiles. Because of her bad range (on mids or moves with quick startup) and slow lows/mids, I think up close is the last place you want to fight, and she gets mauled when the opponent gets in.

She definitely excels at the mid range where you can pester the opponent with b+2,2 which is rather easily hit confirmable into an ex Freeze for combo or df+2 to make it safe. You can also threaten to stop and poke/grab or finish the string for a potential KB into some damage. In the end, I don't think this holds up against a patient opponent. Yeah, you can make b+2,2 safe, but then you're at point blank range, and right where the opponent wants you. There's no threat at the end of her strings.

As it's still early, we'll see how things go, but my prediction is that Frost (and characters like her) aren't going to cut it compared to the characters with more utility (and yes, 50/50's). Sadly, posting threads like this is more likely to get you flamed and dubbed a downplayer instead of generating any really useful discussion.
 
Last edited:

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
Honestly I think a few of these are just you not adjusting to the game. This isn't MKX. Various characters do not have a standing overhead(technically they all do with short hop, don't sleep on that mechanic, frosts hop~2 seems good), the same could be said about damage output and krushing blows.
True, this isn’t MKX. True, dmg output will differ and so will KB. But the very nature of KB, as I understand it, is to allow you to inflict more dmg than a regular combo. To limit hers to the corner for high dmg is confusing. Especially with raiden who does 500 with midscreen KB or Sub Zero’s slide doing 310 (even more if it’s in a combo). Her hop attacks are good and I need to incorporate them more, but let’s not forget shes -12 on them.

Jade's overhead is good, but it's 28 frames of startup. Scorpion's overhead is safe, but it's slower and doesn't do much damage. Skarlet's has range and a KB, but it's unsafe. Would Scorpion and Skarlet become bad characters if you just completely removed their overheads? Probably not. Kabal doesn't have a standing overhead, but don't be surprised to see him be a consistently strong character throughout the game.
Agreed. That’s why Im saying the OH is the least of my concerns. These characters lack OH but have loads of dmg output, mobility, range and KB’s that lead to significantly more dmg. Frost has the range and that’s about it from this list.

You talk about her punishes being weak, and she does have a bit of that "Bo' Rai Cho" factor where she can't always get an ideal punish, but she's got the tools to get it done, and he F2 and Auger Lunge allow her to punish things that a lot of the cast probably can't, notably many Fatal Blows that have a lot of pushback. You mentioned Sub Zero's Slide being tough to punish, well you have a 16 frame launcher in B3, use it. I'm sure there's some punishes here and there that she might have trouble with but it's not the super punishable stuff like teleports and slides. There's also flawless block attacks to consider.
I don’t really consider F2 a punish per say. When I say punish, I refer more to full combo punish. Her fastest starters (S1, S3) lead to loads of dmg but have no range. But what Im having difficulty with, and I realize now is no fault of the character, is that due to the varying ranges of her moves, a very negative move will have to be punished with one specific starter. For example, SZ iceball is -16 and if he does it right in your face, you can’t punish with S1 or S3 (& B3 is too tight online), but you can with S4 or S2 (albeit tight as well). Whereas in MKX, with CSZ, a S1 was always going to punish most moves done in your face. I just need to get used to it :)


"You predict that the opponent, despite having their poke blocked, will go into a string, so you throw out a fast S1 or S3 and they, of course come out first, but their range is so bad that they whiff, allowing the opponent's string to hit confirm u instead."
You're just being negative.
On that point, yes I was lol I was quite frustrated at the time lol

But I think the way you are viewing the game is making you think she's worse than she really is. And it's not just you, I think a lot of people are still adjusting to the frames in the new poking meta and the toned down offense.
I agree. I probably will look back at this a year from now thinking, holy shit I was a scrub lol Or maybe Ill have picked up a new character because I just didn’t gel with her
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
s1 whiffs but f1 punish Sub's Slide, lab again
F1? Im referring to full combo punish. Do you mean B1? Regardless, Subs Slide is punishable with S4 and leads to high dmg. You can read my reply to Marihuana about that. I just need to adjust in that respect
 

Kindred

Let Be Be Finale Of Seem
I don't know how well the rest of the cast truly fares since the game is so new, but it does feel like an uphill battle. Despite her "anti-zoning" tools, I think she gets zoned out really easily by characters that can shoot air projectiles, projectiles with above-average hitstun, or multiple projectiles. Because of her bad range (on mids or moves with quick startup) and slow lows/mids, I think up close is the last place you want to fight, and she gets mauled when the opponent gets in.
Have you faced a Skarlett player who zoned well? That shit is stupid. Unless you have a teleport, its an uphill battle for most of the cast lol The bitch stabs herself, doesnt lose health but hit you even if you put up the anti-zoning shield. just overall dumb, unless u have a hast teleport.

She definitely excels at the mid range where you can pester the opponent with b+2,2 which is rather easily hit confirmable into an ex Freeze for combo or df+2 to make it safe. You can also threaten to stop and poke/grab or finish the string for a potential KB into some damage. In the end, I don't think this holds up against a patient opponent. Yeah, you can make b+2,2 safe, but then you're at point blank range, and right where the opponent wants you. There's no threat at the end of her strings.
I thought about this a lot and I feel like the threat mainly comes from conditioning your opponent. It's purely mind games at this point. But that also means that most of the time you wont complete the full combo with freeze since you're punishable so you will just chip them out with grabs and little things like that.

As it's still early, we'll see how things go, but my prediction is that Frost (and characters like her) aren't going to cut it compared to the characters with more utility (and yes, 50/50's). Sadly, posting threads like this is more likely to get you flamed and dubbed a downplayer instead of generating any really useful discussion.
I feel thats true if you are set in your ways, like if I came in saying she sucks adamantly, then yea. But I have an open mind and I hope people realize that I only bring these points up because I WANT to be proven wrong. I really like the character and I want to main her more than anyone else.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
True, this isn’t MKX. True, dmg output will differ and so will KB. But the very nature of KB, as I understand it, is to allow you to inflict more dmg than a regular combo. To limit hers to the corner for high dmg is confusing. Especially with raiden who does 500 with midscreen KB or Sub Zero’s slide doing 310 (even more if it’s in a combo). Her hop attacks are good and I need to incorporate them more, but let’s not forget shes -12 on them.

Agreed. That’s why Im saying the OH is the least of my concerns. These characters lack OH but have loads of dmg output, mobility, range and KB’s that lead to significantly more dmg. Frost has the range and that’s about it from this list.

I don’t really consider F2 a punish per say. When I say punish, I refer more to full combo punish. Her fastest starters (S1, S3) lead to loads of dmg but have no range. But what Im having difficulty with, and I realize now is no fault of the character, is that due to the varying ranges of her moves, a very negative move will have to be punished with one specific starter. For example, SZ iceball is -16 and if he does it right in your face, you can’t punish with S1 or S3 (& B3 is too tight online), but you can with S4 or S2 (albeit tight as well). Whereas in MKX, with CSZ, a S1 was always going to punish most moves done in your face. I just need to get used to it :)

On that point, yes I was lol I was quite frustrated at the time lol

I agree. I probably will look back at this a year from now thinking, holy shit I was a scrub lol Or maybe Ill have picked up a new character because I just didn’t gel with her
Yeah but are you aware of the requirements of those KB's? Raiden has to hit his B2 twice in a row and Sub Zero has to land three amplified slides. All Frost has to do is whiff punish/punish with one of her best normals. And the damage isn't bad:

D2(KB), B12~DF2 (306, 347 AMP)

B2212(KB), dash, B12~DF2(258, 293 AMP)

The reason I brought up F2 as a punish is because it's a base move of hers that will allow her to punish stuff other characters couldn't. So maybe she does have trouble punishing certain things, but the upside is that she has some punishes that other characters couldn't get. Anyway, best of luck dropping head bombs.
 
Last edited: