She's fun but is she viable...

[Darth Mao]

F1? Im referring to full combo punish. Do you mean B1? Regardless, Subs Slide is punishable with S4 and leads to high dmg. You can read my reply to Marihuana about that. I just need to adjust in that respect

you can input f1 as an option for s1, but with more range so you can full combo punish Sub's Slide

 

[vegeta]

Regardless of all the counter-points to the OP I've been using her since Day 1 as well and there are inconsistencies in her kit overall. I was using V1 up until 2 days ago and switched to 2 for better consistency and damage. Head Bombs aren't much of a threat since A: they aren't low and B what cyber-sub had to make the bomb dangerous even when it was changed to a mid she doesn't really have. Best I used it for was to force an action out of my opponent (block, jump or short bomb for when they are trying to string me up so I'd get a trade) she has some small issues that could use adjusting. Hitboxes on some stuff as mentioned or the fact that we have to do rocket science to ensure a punish sometimes due to that fact isn't cool in my book. When you start fighting real solid players that give you almost nothing in opportunities it gets kinda hard for her to open someone up or take a good chunk of life when she does (assuming they know the matchup at least half decently). Can't whiff punish a with b22 KB if people aren't whiffing from distance and such.

She has decent tools yes and it's week one so everyone is figuring everything out but overall it's foolish to ignore that she does have some basic issues that can cost heavily. Also her natural style of play which generally is spacing based is risky against teleporters at times. Even if you're careful if you throw out a poke or say b22 and someone teleports or hell even jumps over you it takes forever for her to turn back around post finishing the string. I also feels she needs slightly faster mids, like speed up b12 a LITTLE bit. I've had some folks mash out on me or trade out of panic or disrespect.

I like variation 1 a lot as well but the reward for the work you're doing isn't really there. Hence why I switched to 2, at least there if I punish or get good read on someone the damage is more consistent and a little better.

At the moment I think she just needs some stuff tweaked or sped up a tiny bit. Nothing crazy but she needs better consistency at the very least.

 

[vegeta]

@Kindred - I'm in the lab as we speak checking something. I fought a scorpion yesterday and punishing his TP was harder than I thought. I was like "ok maybe it's because it's online"

So doing it now I'm using S1. If he TP's from 2p side to 1p side. I hit 1. It punishes. If he does it from 1p side to 2p side and I hit 1...it whiffs..........................I'm like...what? why though? Stuff like that.

 

[Kindred]

Yeah but are you aware of the requirements of those KB's? Raiden has to hit his B2 twice in a row and Sub Zero has to land three amplified slides. All Frost has to do is whiff punish/punish with one of her best normals. And the damage isn't bad:

D2(KB), B12~DF2 (306, 347 AMP)

B2212(KB), dash, B12~DF2(258, 293 AMP)

The reason I brought up F2 as a punish is because it's a base move of hers that will allow her to punish stuff other characters couldn't. So maybe she does have trouble punishing certain things, but the upside is that she has some punishes that other characters couldn't get. Anyway, best of luck dropping head bombs.

Im surprised you're landing the slow B12 to be honest. Im gonna try that out.
But even with it, when using Ice Machine variation, you do a midscreen BnB of 303 so the fact that you get roughly the same dmg with a KB is kind of useless and even more of a reason to save your KB for the corner (IF the situation ever even presents itself). Same with B2212(KB), why would I ever do it midscreen if I can do her B22 BnB into more dmg?
Her KBs are actually useless midscreen. And look at the Auger Lunge KB, similar to Sub Zero's slide, you got to land it 3 times amplified to get the KB. Except it does nowhere near the 310 dmg a Sub Slide KB does....

Yea F2 is cool for long distance punishing for sure. I kind of wish B22 was faster because if you could long distance punish with that, people wouldnt throw out stuff randomly because they wouldnt just eay 100 dmg (or wtv F2 does). But then I dont know if it would make her too strong (i dont think so but maybe)

 

[vegeta]

I have to hold f and hit 1 to get it to punish. It's distance based for whatever reason after he TP's. Works in reverse the same way. The point though is regarding her hitbox issues with some of her attacks

 

[Kindred]

@Kindred - I'm in the lab as we speak checking something. I fought a scorpion yesterday and punishing his TP was harder than I thought. I was like "ok maybe it's because it's online"

So doing it now I'm using S1. If he TP's from 2p side to 1p side. I hit 1. It punishes. If he does it from 1p side to 2p side and I hit 1...it whiffs..........................I'm like...what? why though? Stuff like that.

Wait are you fucking serious? No way. Did you try playing around with stance switch? Because depending on her stance, some of her moves reach and others dont. What about S2?

 

[vegeta]

Wait are you fucking serious? No way. Did you try playing around with stance switch? Because depending on her stance, some of her moves reach and others dont. What about S2?

I'm trying stuff now. I was like wtf there's NO way

 

[vegeta]

but still...stance switch or not....if it's stance switch dependent that's still dumb

 

[vegeta]

@Kindred

 

[Kindred]

I have to hold f and hit 1 to get it to punish. It's distance based for whatever reason after he TP's. Works in reverse the same way. The point though is regarding her hitbox issues with some of her attacks

Ugh this is annoying.
I need to try to F1 to see the difference. I swear the inconsistency in her punish make me end up just grabbing ppl as a punish.
Oh also, Ive punished a Scorpion teleport with S4 but inconsistently. I can't check since Im not home but isnt the teleport like -20 or something?

 

[Kindred]

@Kindred

Ok.......
I dont understand, is this something done on purpose or a glitch that needs to be fixed? Im all for having characters harder to master than others, I get that the game is new and we need to adjust, I get all that. But this just seems needlessly complicated so Im thinking it has to be a glitch and unintended by the devs

 

[vegeta]

I did stance switching. If his back is to the screen it hits. If it isn't it's inconsistent. I don't get it. I don't know if I'm missing something but I've tried every way I can think of. TP is "tracking" so it supposedly lands next to you at the same distance no matter what. But THIS is what I'm talking about. I was getting annoyed yesterday since a dude was throwing out TP's and I was not punishing or whiffing. Again I thought it was just online. I got to checking this morning and this is what I found lol

 

[vegeta]

Ugh this is annoying.
I need to try to F1 to see the difference. I swear the inconsistency in her punish make me end up just grabbing ppl as a punish.
Oh also, Ive punished a Scorpion teleport with S4 but inconsistently. I can't check since Im not home but isnt the teleport like -20 or something?

yes it's -20

 

[vegeta]

now using "2" hits no matter what. but like without meter the damage off of it sucks

 

[Marinjuana]

Im surprised you're landing the slow B12 to be honest. Im gonna try that out.
But even with it, when using Ice Machine variation, you do a midscreen BnB of 303 so the fact that you get roughly the same dmg with a KB is kind of useless and even more of a reason to save your KB for the corner (IF the situation ever even presents itself). Same with B2212(KB), why would I ever do it midscreen if I can do her B22 BnB into more dmg?
Her KBs are actually useless midscreen. And look at the Auger Lunge KB, similar to Sub Zero's slide, you got to land it 3 times amplified to get the KB. Except it does nowhere near the 310 dmg a Sub Slide KB does....

Yea F2 is cool for long distance punishing for sure. I kind of wish B22 was faster because if you could long distance punish with that, people wouldnt throw out stuff randomly because they wouldnt just eay 100 dmg (or wtv F2 does). But then I dont know if it would make her too strong (i dont think so but maybe)

It's pretty tight on small hurtboxes but surprisingly easy on big characters. You could probably substitute B12 for 22 or 13.

If you don't think they are good then all you but the KB's are far from useless. Auger Lunge is a great special, getting a combo off of it matters. B2212 gives me a meterless combo off of a punish. I'm not trying to be a dick but it's week one, lab this shit more instead of writing it off because of how you view other characters.

I do think her requirement for Arctic Barrsge KB is weak.

 

[Kindred]

now using "2" hits no matter what. but like without meter the damage off of it sucks

If you're using Ice Machine, you have to use meter for her Burst no matter what. So you can punish with 2~DB4(amp), J2, B32D1, B12 xx BF4 = 271. That's very annoying because based on the frame data, you should be able to punish with the 13 starter and get 297 dmg.
And this is part of a larger problem because now that means that you dont have a consistent punish for most punisheable moves from the rest of the characters. Its like a case by case situation which no other character Ive seen has this problem. Like ok I have to remember that I can punish the TP with 2 only but someone elses TP needs S4 instead. But now I have to factor in which side they are teleporting from.....why would anyone pick her in a tournement...

I did stance switching. If his back is to the screen it hits. If it isn't it's inconsistent. I don't get it. I don't know if I'm missing something but I've tried every way I can think of. TP is "tracking" so it supposedly lands next to you at the same distance no matter what. But THIS is what I'm talking about. I was getting annoyed yesterday since a dude was throwing out TP's and I was not punishing or whiffing. Again I thought it was just online. I got to checking this morning and this is what I found lol

I feel you man. People get away with the dumbest shit because you spend half the time trying to figure out what you can punish with, if your stance is correct, if you're just too slow or if the lag is fucking u up

 

[TakeAChance]

I've been using her, even moreso than Jade. I started on stance 2, then switched back to 1. I like the bombs for a couple reasons:

1. They force movement. No, you don't get an inescapable situation, but a lot of people just don't like to sit there and block it just to eat another mixup.

2. If the opponent respects them (after you throw out a F2 or B2 to make them) it opens other shenanigans.

3. Cancelling into bombs in strings unexpectedly works. You can't rely on it, but it WILL work in moderation. This allows you to do B3 staggers....which due to her kit and the fact that all of her overheads come out at the end of her strings, you would be surprised how often a B3 into B3 works.

4. If a bomb is blocked, Enjoy your free pressure. Sure her pressure can be somewhat hollow, but it's safe and it does chip. Get in, use it, stagger, and start throwing. This character can snowball you very quickly.

Those are my takes so far. She lacks a great midscreen punish, but she is absolutely terrifying in the corner. She has rangy hit confirmable normals that can be used to bait wakeups, and she can use the head bombs after conditioning with her spin or staggers to force opponents into taking a D4 or a throw mixup. It's all about the string mindgames, and she can play them very well.

5. her zoning isn't great, but if she can get a head thrown out, she will win the trade.

 

[Kindred]

It's pretty tight on small hurtboxes but surprisingly easy on big characters. You could probably substitute B12 for 22 or 13.

If you don't think they are good then all you but the KB's are far from useless. Auger Lunge is a great special, getting a combo off of it matters. B2212 gives me a meterless combo off of a punish. I'm not trying to be a dick but it's week one, lab this shit more instead of writing it off because of how you view other characters.

I do think her requirement for Arctic Barrsge KB is weak.

Ive labbed it quite a bit and if I cant get significantly more than my BnB midscreen, then it would all come down to strategy and case by case basis. Like am I in dire need of the dmg to close the health gap or can I end the match, then Ill go for it midscreen. Case-by-case. Im gonna keep playing around with it see what I can come up with

 

[projectzero00]

I've been using her, even moreso than Jade. I started on stance 2, then switched back to 1. I like the bombs for a couple reasons:

1. They force movement. No, you don't get an inescapable situation, but a lot of people just don't like to sit there and block it just to eat another mixup.

2. If the opponent respects them (after you throw out a F2 or B2 to make them) it opens other shenanigans.

3. Cancelling into bombs in strings unexpectedly works. You can't rely on it, but it WILL work in moderation. This allows you to do B3 staggers....which due to her kit and the fact that all of her overheads come out at the end of her strings, you would be surprised how often a B3 into B3 works.

4. If a bomb is blocked, Enjoy your free pressure. Sure her pressure can be somewhat hollow, but it's safe and it does chip. Get in, use it, stagger, and start throwing. This character can snowball you very quickly.

Those are my takes so far. She lacks a great midscreen punish, but she is absolutely terrifying in the corner. She has rangy hit confirmable normals that can be used to bait wakeups, and she can use the head bombs after conditioning with her spin or staggers to force opponents into taking a D4 or a throw mixup. It's all about the string mindgames, and she can play them very well.

5. her zoning isn't great, but if she can get a head thrown out, she will win the trade.

1.She doesn't have any great mixups. Literally everyone I've played online got used to them after a couple of matches and easily punished. Just block low and then high, rinse and repeat.

2.Nobody respects them after a while cause she just doesn't have good pressure up close. Most characters have faster pokes to get out.

3.Haven't worked on this too much tbf. I haven't found a way for her bombs to work really so I use the other variation.

4.Again her pressure is non-existent and easy to get out of and punish. People say you can do some chip or throw but that's my problem. With other characters I find it so much easier to get on a roll and mixup/pressure/get some decent damage. With Frost I struggle way to much to keep up and I've labbed with her the most out of the roster.

Also I strongly disagree that she's terrifying in the corner. Aside from getting a couple more S1s before ending a combo when my opponent is in the air, she's just able to land a bit more damage than midscreen which is true for every other character.

In general my main issue with her is how hard it is to punish people with her normals' range or how slow the longer range ones are. 12 and 34 barely hit any blocked moves. She doesn't need a whole set of new tools, just a few tweaks on the ones she already has.
All in all I agree on a lot of OP's points.

 

[Kindred]

1.She doesn't have any great mixups. Literally everyone I've played online got used to them after a couple of matches and easily punished. Just block low and then high, rinse and repeat.

I feel the same way but at the same time, i feel that you can condition your opponents. Once they know that they first block low then high, you start doing 2 lows in a row. Like Ill do B32D1 and once they are used to it, Ill start doing B3, B32D1. So her mixups arent great but with some adjustments, she can really destabilize a lot of ppl due to her range once they are conditioned. Hell condition ppl to block after B22 and you can inflict some serious fear. Ive had ppl revert to just zoning to get away.

3.Haven't worked on this too much tbf. I haven't found a way for her bombs to work really so I use the other variation.

lol her bombs really are trash

Also I strongly disagree that she's terrifying in the corner. Aside from getting a couple more S1s before ending a combo when my opponent is in the air, she's just able to land a bit more damage than midscreen which is true for every other character.

When we say terrifying in the corner, we (at least I) mean it in the way that people are literally too afraid to move. You adjust your spacing and use B22 and people are frozen. Check out my lastest post about her corner pressure in the general discussion. Its actually quite strong. And because of her range, you dont need to be in their face when they are in the corner so after knocking them down, you take a few steps back, thereby negating all their wake ups and punish with B22. It's a thing of beauty.

In general my main issue with her is how hard it is to punish people with her normals' range or how slow the longer range ones are. 12 and 34 barely hit any blocked moves. She doesn't need a whole set of new tools, just a few tweaks on the ones she already has.

100% agreed. This is what bothers me the most

 

[vegeta]

I've been using her, even moreso than Jade. I started on stance 2, then switched back to 1. I like the bombs for a couple reasons:

1. They force movement. No, you don't get an inescapable situation, but a lot of people just don't like to sit there and block it just to eat another mixup.

2. If the opponent respects them (after you throw out a F2 or B2 to make them) it opens other shenanigans.

3. Cancelling into bombs in strings unexpectedly works. You can't rely on it, but it WILL work in moderation. This allows you to do B3 staggers....which due to her kit and the fact that all of her overheads come out at the end of her strings, you would be surprised how often a B3 into B3 works.

4. If a bomb is blocked, Enjoy your free pressure. Sure her pressure can be somewhat hollow, but it's safe and it does chip. Get in, use it, stagger, and start throwing. This character can snowball you very quickly.

Those are my takes so far. She lacks a great midscreen punish, but she is absolutely terrifying in the corner. She has rangy hit confirmable normals that can be used to bait wakeups, and she can use the head bombs after conditioning with her spin or staggers to force opponents into taking a D4 or a throw mixup. It's all about the string mindgames, and she can play them very well.

5. her zoning isn't great, but if she can get a head thrown out, she will win the trade.

That’s how I used bombs but you’ll find that an opponent who’s labbed her even a little won’t be pressured at all. They can just fast poke and stuff things like f2 and such. Her start ups are slow enough at times to get interrupted. If they get a read off your strings or you cancel an attack that has a gap into bomb they can attack or move anyway. I used the bomb to force action too but the reward for hitting someone in that variant isn’t very high. Also including her punish issues that are popping up left and right. I think she needs some tweaks outright just to gain consistency first and foremost

 

[TakeAChance]

1.She doesn't have any great mixups. Literally everyone I've played online got used to them after a couple of matches and easily punished. Just block low and then high, rinse and repeat.

2.Nobody respects them after a while cause she just doesn't have good pressure up close. Most characters have faster pokes to get out.

3.Haven't worked on this too much tbf. I haven't found a way for her bombs to work really so I use the other variation.

4.Again her pressure is non-existent and easy to get out of and punish. People say you can do some chip or throw but that's my problem. With other characters I find it so much easier to get on a roll and mixup/pressure/get some decent damage. With Frost I struggle way to much to keep up and I've labbed with her the most out of the roster.

Also I strongly disagree that she's terrifying in the corner. Aside from getting a couple more S1s before ending a combo when my opponent is in the air, she's just able to land a bit more damage than midscreen which is true for every other character.

In general my main issue with her is how hard it is to punish people with her normals' range or how slow the longer range ones are. 12 and 34 barely hit any blocked moves. She doesn't need a whole set of new tools, just a few tweaks on the ones she already has.
All in all I agree on a lot of OP's points.

Let me counter counter point you.

1. She doesn't have safe 50/50's if that's what you are referring to. But most characters in MK11 do not either. Her mixups comes from her stagger pressure/throw/D4 poking game. If you are fully committing to full unsafe strings (B32D1) and not hit confirming, you deserve to be punished. Hell, B32 is safe....start doing it naked and start tacking on blade spin. Both options are safe, and if you want to get real cute, meter burn the blade spin (also safe and it lasts an eternity) you are going to have opponents questioning when to hit buttons. That's off of one string. Start trying to do B2~bomb drop and B22 and see how they are reacting. If they are respecting the bomb, keep doing more pressure. If they aren't blow up what they are doing to get out of it.

2. You need to start using her range. D4 can literally be blocked, and beat out another characters D1. If they start trying to down 4 you back, do a slight walk back and bring out the b2. She has great neutral.

3.Her bombs work as a tool to get opponents to DO something. Either they will block it, get hit by it, or try to avoid them. Watch what they do and see if you have an option to beat it. For instance, if you are doing D4 and do a random close bomb buffered into it and they respect it, there's pressure. If they jump as soon as you throw your head, punish it with D2 or F2 (jump back etc) she has options based on what those bombs make her opponents do.

4. She isn't a super combo heavy character. Yes Sonya and Scorp etc are going to get more off of their confirms, but they also can't dictate space QUITE like she can. Her pressure once again, is based around staggers and range and her safety of frames.

5. The corner point was spoken by Kindred earlier, but she doesn't give a shit about wakeup attacks. She has a safe hit confirmable way to check them. Once they respect this, back up and throw a bomb at their feet. Start short hopping, throwing B3 staggering B2 staggering etc.



She isn't an MKX character, and she definitely isn't Cyber Sub Zero. If she was, she would be broken as fuck in this game. The only point I will honestly concede at this point is her punishing options. It was painfully clear picking her up she had consistency issues...in BOTH variations.

EDIT - Her bombs can be blown up, and that's by design. You can't be too predictable with them. If you use her second variation and play someone who just neutral crouches from 3 quarters of the screen and can omit her entire offense, you will see why I consider variation 1 her best atm.

 

[00001]

I've pretty much no-lifed this game since it came out and I've only played Frost. The TLDR here is that I strongly disagree with you, and consider her a very solid character as long as you're willing to adjust expectations and put in the work. She isn't potato and she's far from buddying up to anyone in MKX but as far as this version of the game stands I think she's good. That's subject to change as the game is still so new, but for now here's why I think your points are incorrect. Keep in mind that everything I'm about to say applies to her Ice Machine variation, as I haven't played Frost-Byte and don't intend to.

1. "Her lack of OH..." You deleted this, as you should have, but I'll take a second regardless because people have been saying this about soo many characters. You do not need an overhead starter to win a game. You do not need an overhead starter to be viable. Especially in a game that has universal overheads.

2. "Her punish damage output sucks" This is an actual weakness, but characters have weaknesses. Sometimes we have to punish with a D2 or Lunge when other characters get a full combo. Her punishes can be weird and DO require lab time. But it's okay. You're not meant to be a dangerous punishing character. Lab the punishes you're having trouble with. Also, as someone else pointed out, we get F2 man. It's a damn fullscreen AA and excellent whiff punishing tool. Frost has nutty whiff punish potential in general.

3. "Her Krushing Blows blow" I disagree strongly with this. You have a KB off of whiff-punishing something with your best string and Ice Machine has an easy KB after landing three MB Lunges, which you'll do in most games because the move is a combo ender and an effective whiff-punishing tool. She also gets TWO throw KBs. Meaning after your opponent fails to tech a throw, the next one is a 50/50 and they're losing big life if they guess wrong. Also D2 KB which is universal but still counts. Her Krushing Blows are fine especially when you compare them to some other cast members. This complaint just comes off as whiny.

4. "S1 and S3 range" They are very stubby normals. Frost has plenty of stubby normals. This is on you though. If you're getting bodied because you're whiffing strings that's entirely the fault of the player, especially if it's because you "read that the opponent is going to press buttons" like c'mon man. It would be great if these buttons were longer but it's not the character's fault you're just using them at the wrong times. It sucks but we just have to adjust.

5. "Her damage output midscreen sucks" This is another whiny complaint man. Play a high-damaging character then? Most combos are 300+ for a bar and her enders give her excellent corner carry or a hard knockdown. It'd be a little wild if a character with Frost's kit could hit for 400 MIDSCREEN. Relaaax friend.

6. "What's her style?" She's a space-control monster with incredible counter-zoning and one of the best projectiles in the game in Ice Machine's DB2. Most of her options are safe. Moving against her is incredibly dangerous. Everyone's gonna play her differently but that's an excellent foundation. Build off of that. Sorry she's not as easy to classify as 'zoner' or 'rushdown' but that's what makes her so fun.

7. "No good AA options" This is just wrong. S1, Ji1, S4 and D2 are all good anti-airs for different situations. She can easily convert off of most of her AAs too. I'm not saying she has the best AAs in the game but they're solid. Not a weakness at all imo.

The character does have flaws. She's far from perfect. Her pokes are ass (though they do have good range so we have that going for us) and its hard for her to stop some characters from mashing all over our shiny bits. Her up-close punish game is weak. Her mids leave a lot to be desired. Her post-D1 game is ass. But she still has so much going for her. F2 is crazy. Auger Lunge has great range and carries the opponent like crazy. DF2 is completely safe. Max range B2xxDB2B is actually nuts and some characters can't do a thing about it. Her counter-zoning is super effective. Her Fatal Blow is SO GOOD. Again, just adjust your expectations. Stop thinking of the things you want and start building an effective gameplan around all the things you have. To answer your question, yes, I think Frost is completely viable, especially if you have a secondary that can cover some of her more unfavorable match-ups.

 

[ClumsyShadow]

It's so simple : She sucks for competitive matches ! she's fun at all BUT she doesn't work in ranked match and competitive scene . if anyone disagree i suggest to maining her for 1 week '' AND USING HER IN RANKED MATCH '' then it will become obvious that she needs a buff/rework .

 

[Kindred]

2. "Her punish damage output sucks" This is an actual weakness, but characters have weaknesses. Sometimes we have to punish with a D2 or Lunge when other characters get a full combo. Her punishes can be weird and DO require lab time. But it's okay. You're not meant to be a dangerous punishing character. Lab the punishes you're having trouble with. Also, as someone else pointed out, we get F2 man. It's a damn fullscreen AA and excellent whiff punishing tool. Frost has nutty whiff punish potential in general.

I agree. Her dmg is less of an issue with Ice Machine. Its more so with Frosty-Byte, which I dropped for other reasons anyway

3. "Her Krushing Blows blow" I disagree strongly with this. You have a KB off of whiff-punishing something with your best string and Ice Machine has an easy KB after landing three MB Lunges, which you'll do in most games because the move is a combo ender and an effective whiff-punishing tool. She also gets TWO throw KBs. Meaning after your opponent fails to tech a throw, the next one is a 50/50 and they're losing big life if they guess wrong. Also D2 KB which is universal but still counts. Her Krushing Blows are fine especially when you compare them to some other cast members. This complaint just comes off as whiny.

I dont mind the number of KBs Frost has. I dont mind the requirements to do them. All that is great. But what bothers me is her minimal damage she gets off of them midscreen when compared to KBs of most other fighters midscreen. Unless I can end the game or make a comeback, why would I waste a KB midscreen when I could do the same dmg with a BnB and save the KB for higher corner dmg. Im just saying other chracaters dont have to make that sacrifice. From Raiden who gets 50% from a midscreen KB, to Subs fast Slide KB that leads to 31% (even more in a combo), etc. When I catch someone with a KB, they should be punished hard, but they dont with frost. Its just a regular BnB (midscreen). I admit that it is still early and perhaps, as I discover her other tools and get better, Ill realize that she might not need this damage. We'll see, Im open to it all.

4. "S1 and S3 range" They are very stubby normals. Frost has plenty of stubby normals. This is on you though. If you're getting bodied because you're whiffing strings that's entirely the fault of the player, especially if it's because you "read that the opponent is going to press buttons" like c'mon man. It would be great if these buttons were longer but it's not the character's fault you're just using them at the wrong times. It sucks but we just have to adjust.

I disagree, but only to a certain extent. I agree that one must lab their character to know when and with what to push what move. That is a learning curve which is inevitable and Im ok with. But Im most definitely not ok with stuff like this:

5. "Her damage output midscreen sucks" This is another whiny complaint man. Play a high-damaging character then? Most combos are 300+ for a bar and her enders give her excellent corner carry or a hard knockdown. It'd be a little wild if a character with Frost's kit could hit for 400 MIDSCREEN. Relaaax friend.

Yea this was more in response to Frost-Byte since that variation has no way of extending combos. Ice Machine has the 300+ combos

6. "What's her style?" She's a space-control monster with incredible counter-zoning and one of the best projectiles in the game in Ice Machine's DB2. Most of her options are safe. Moving against her is incredibly dangerous. Everyone's gonna play her differently but that's an excellent foundation. Build off of that. Sorry she's not as easy to classify as 'zoner' or 'rushdown' but that's what makes her so fun.

I wholeheartedly agree. I need to modify my old post because Past Kindred might have been having tunnel vision lol

7. "No good AA options" This is just wrong. S1, Ji1, S4 and D2 are all good anti-airs for different situations. She can easily convert off of most of her AAs too. I'm not saying she has the best AAs in the game but they're solid. Not a weakness at all imo.

I meant more in terms of damage. Her most damaging AA and the one I hit consistently is D2. At the time when using Frost-Byte with the bomb setups, I would read a person was going to jump at me after throwing a bomb and whereas in MKX I could punish them, here, you're most damaging consistent option is an uppercut. But currently, as Im playing Ice Machine, I cant say the basic D2 dmg of the AA bothers me because I have other tools to inflict dmg midscreen (at least more so than with Frost-Byte)

The character does have flaws. She's far from perfect. Her pokes are ass (though they do have good range so we have that going for us) and its hard for her to stop some characters from mashing all over our shiny bits. Her up-close punish game is weak. Her mids leave a lot to be desired. Her post-D1 game is ass. But she still has so much going for her. F2 is crazy. Auger Lunge has great range and carries the opponent like crazy. DF2 is completely safe. Max range B2xxDB2B is actually nuts and some characters can't do a thing about it. Her counter-zoning is super effective. Her Fatal Blow is SO GOOD. Again, just adjust your expectations. Stop thinking of the things you want and start building an effective gameplan around all the things you have. To answer your question, yes, I think Frost is completely viable, especially if you have a secondary that can cover some of her more unfavorable match-ups.

I agree with you on every point here. However, Im not ready to adamantly state that she is completely viable but I must admit after the discussions in this thread, Im seeing her as more and more viable.