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SFV Beta Discussion

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mercureXI

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
They already stated that they prefer to "overnerf" characters for now, and gradually "un-nerf" them when we have a chance to see how good they are after a few months of gameplay.

Ryu still is a great character overall.

Just the fact that you can still do a crossup MK > MP > MP > V-Trigger > cHK and from there : full hado charge > guard break > super (if opponent doesn't quick rise) or opponent quick rises (corner) > super > guard break > shoryuken ... and so on ... shows how frightening he will be once people learn a few tricks and setups, and if Capcom ever "buffs" him, even slightly.

Cammy is way worse than Ryu for now, imo.
 
EntropicByDesign

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Ok.. Fang is effin' crazy.

I dunno what to do with this guy, but this is the first character that just made me go 'holy shit'..

Thoughts?
 
14K

14K

Warrior
EntropicByDesign said:
Tough to say, but with a game being months away from release and only operating on a rolling on/off beta cycle to begin with, I wouldn't worry too much yet. There could be entire system mechanics not yet implemented as far as we know. I HOPE there are entire system mechanics not yet implemented any way, because as of right now, I find SFV a little plain. I like the idea of a.low barrier to entry, but the ideal scenario with that is that there is a deep and difficult back-end you can spend hundreds of hours with. Currently, TO ME, it feels like they nailed the low barrier of entry, but haven't developed the back-end yet.

20m is enough go get most characters important combos down - I'm sure there is swaggy stuff, but the important BnB's are cake, even the very heavy damage ones, then its just a matter of learning that characters spacing. Now, I know that the spacing/footsie game can be learned and improved on essentially forever, but I just can't picture myself getting as deeply involved in SFV when all I have to work on is how far, or how close, to stand to someone and what 2-3 of my 7-8 normals are actually worth using.

Id like to see jabs/light kicks having a purpose again.. Two and you've pushed the opponent out of range, and at least on the handful of characters I played, they dont link in to much/anything..

Now, this isnt meant to be a real criticism, I have faith the game will flesh out before its released, its just a statement on the current state of the game as I SEE IT.
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This is a complicated topic, im also divided when it comes to execution part of this game being so simple that anyone with 30 mins of time can learn the characters combos and get going online/tornament... but heres where i met my answer, a good player is not one that has the execution of a god, but one that has the forsight to plan ahead and outplay his opponent, thats what creates hype moments, being outplayed in a crucial moment, and that doesnt come down to execution but planning and solid spacing/footsies... The low execution lvl of this game will just make SF more volatile because ppl wont drop as many combos, this in part will make the game more action heavy, something SFIV needed ( in my opinion ) now that doesnt mean i agree with every mechanic/frame data and or purpose of moves on every character, but Spacing/footsies is where the game should have depth not in execution barriers... atleast thats just how feel right now, my opinion might change as i delve deeper into the characters/game, but as of right now i think this game will pull alot of ppl that prior to this had no interest in the SFIV due to its insane execution/ slow paced footsie mechanics...
 
d3v

d3v

SRK
mercureXI said:
They already stated that they prefer to "overnerf" characters for now, and gradually "un-nerf" them when we have a chance to see how good they are after a few months of gameplay.

Ryu still is a great character overall.

Just the fact that you can still do a crossup MK > MP > MP > V-Trigger > cHK and from there : full hado charge > guard break > super (if opponent doesn't quick rise) or opponent quick rises (corner) > super > guard break > shoryuken ... and so on ... shows how frightening he will be once people learn a few tricks and setups, and if Capcom ever "buffs" him, even slightly.

Cammy is way worse than Ryu for now, imo.
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LOL no.

Ryu's considered worst because he can't really play like what many feel he's supposed to. His buttons lack range which is why many players feel he can't play the footsie game as well as the other character. This is important because SFV is a much more footsie and poking oriented game than SFIV. It goes back to older SFs where you had more of footsies leading into more footies, with a lessened emphasis on setups.

On the flipside, Cammy is generally considered stronger because she has a faster walkspeed and better buttons. She's back to how she was in CvS2 where she was top tier just by being able to walk forward and put hitboxes in front of her. Once again, she has good buttons, and great meterless damage potential off them. People see her as weak because she can't do the shenanigans she did in IV and her design seems simple. However, with the game playing much more like 3rd Strike, we're looking at a situation where simple with good fundamentals may be enough to make a character good. Hell, 3S was a game where all the characters with advanced tech were considered mid or low tier.
 
EntropicByDesign

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Yeah, I have to slightly amend my opinion after playing some Ryu in V the other day.

I don't care for him in V. He DEFINITELY doesn't feel right. I played several people and I was trying to implement a kind of 3S/IV hybrid gameplan and it just wouldn't work. I couldn't control the space in front of me ANYTHING like I felt Ryu should be able to, and his fireball just isn't good enough to hold up at mid range unless he's in V-trigger.

The worst part was that I felt out of control as Ryu, which is a really weird feeling on him. He has always been about control and pacing and power and it felt like I couldn't control of regulte the pace at all, and when I did get in, it really wasn't terribly scary for the opponent.

Don't get me wrong, I could have just been getting out played, but a handful.of guys I played were clearly not that great or just plain crazy. I won against those guys but it wasn't Ryu doing me any favors, I was just better than they were. Every time I played someone around my skill level it was rough.

I've played Ken previously with great success. He feels.really good. Ryu feels.. Incomplete.

It's early though and could absolutely be that Ryu's gameplan is just different. But for my own preferences, I want SFIV Ryu back as that's my favorite version of him. It's just so damn satisfying to play him and he FEELS so solid to me.
 
mercureXI

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
d3v said:
LOL no.

Ryu's considered worst because he can't really play like what many feel he's supposed to. His buttons lack range which is why many players feel he can't play the footsie game as well as the other character. This is important because SFV is a much more footsie and poking oriented game than SFIV. It goes back to older SFs where you had more of footsies leading into more footies, with a lessened emphasis on setups.

On the flipside, Cammy is generally considered stronger because she has a faster walkspeed and better buttons. She's back to how she was in CvS2 where she was top tier just by being able to walk forward and put hitboxes in front of her. Once again, she has good buttons, and great meterless damage potential off them. People see her as weak because she can't do the shenanigans she did in IV and her design seems simple. However, with the game playing much more like 3rd Strike, we're looking at a situation where simple with good fundamentals may be enough to make a character good. Hell, 3S was a game where all the characters with advanced tech were considered mid or low tier.
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LOL yes ?

Not being able to play him like you used to play him, doesn't mean he is worst ...

Feels like people "feeling" that Gief and Sim are terrible just because you can't use the same old SFIV gameplan all over again, and have to incorporate new things into the equation.

No, you can't do c.MK into hado all day every day in SFV. Sorry.

Yes you need to use his other tools to be able to succeed (guard break setups, parry, delayed target combo to fish for a crush counter, etc).

Ryu is still solid in SFV. Like I said, they nerfed a lot of things, but just so that they "un-nerf" step by step and work on balance.

Cammy has indeed a great MK poke. But on the other side : her HK being her only C.C and not hitting crouched characters, her hooligan still being "crouching beats all options" (crouching actually beats Cammy, period, especially with SFV throw range), her EX dive way worse than before, her V-Skill being almost useless against non-fireball characters (and even then, if you don't use it really early, most of the cast can punish you for using it anyway), etc ... make her kinda "meh" overall.

Her gameplan is getting close, but once she is, she has no real tool to open up someone (that problem was still there in USF4, but hard to block vortex options and throws made it acceptable).


Both characters definitely don't feel like top tiers, but saying Ryu is considered "worst" in SFV, is definitely hard to believe for now . . .
 
EntropicByDesign

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
Yeah I don't think he's 'worst' I just don't like how he plays.

I understand that just because he's not SfIV Ryu that doesn't make him bad, but I do know that Ryu has always been about control, fundamentals and precision and the current iteration of him in V doesn't feel that way.

Sure, it may just be that he has a totally different gameplan now and once that's fleshed out and applied, he can kick ass, but that doesn't mean I have to like the new Ryu.

My complaints about Ryu aren't geared towards where I think he sits in a tier list exactly but just how he feels to play. Ryu has always felt like a rock , this solid character that never feels out of his element and I just don't think, at least to me, that V Ryu has that same confidant asskickery to him.

For my own part I had planned to main Karin, Laura or Necalli and co-main Ryu with whoever I chose.. But after playing Necalli and Karin, I scratched them off the list. Nothing to do with how effective they are, but after getting actual seat time on them and other characters, I didn't like them as much as I had hoped. I haven't had a chance to play Laura yet so, so not sure about her yet.. Ken however REALLY impressed me. Great damage, has a nice , mobile feel and I he clicked pretty well with me. Then I saw the Fang trailer and my list is now Laura or Fang with Ken as the co-mains, though I still want to learn Ryu and see if, once I adjust to his new gameplan, he goes back to feeling as comfortable as he did to me in previous games.

Also, I know you weren't referring to me so much as the poster you quoted, I'm just stating my opinions/points a little more clearly.
 
Atomic Era

Atomic Era

Grundy want pants too.
karaokelove said:
Has anyone gotten in any time with Rashid? I'm really interested in checking him out. And of course Bison.
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I have. He's really interesting and quite fun in my opinion. He's a mobile mix-up character like El Fuerte but actually likable. Easy to do combos, able to convert off a lot of things, some long reaching normals. His main weakness seems to be suffering from Nash syndrome, no get off me/wake ups.
 
d3v

d3v

SRK
mercureXI said:
Cammy has indeed a great MK poke. But on the other side : her HK being her only C.C and not hitting crouched characters, her hooligan still being "crouching beats all options" (crouching actually beats Cammy, period, especially with SFV throw range), her EX dive way worse than before, her V-Skill being almost useless against non-fireball characters (and even then, if you don't use it really early, most of the cast can punish you for using it anyway), etc ... make her kinda "meh" overall.

Her gameplan is getting close, but once she is, she has no real tool to open up someone (that problem was still there in USF4, but hard to block vortex options and throws made it acceptable).
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The problem here is you're comparing her (and the game) to SFIV, which is wrong.

The design is much more like older games, where there's much more emphasis on pure buttons into buttons. Less about getting in and trying top mixup or open up your opponent.

Cammy's gameplan is the same as it is in CvS2 (where she was top tier). Classic Cammy's was not really about getting close and trying to open her opponent up, but rather about offensive footsies - where you're still playing the spacing/poking game, but at closer range, pushing your opponent into the corner, or punishing anything they put out. It's basically the old Ricky Ortiz style of playing seemingly defensively, but still pushing your opponent into the corner.

In V, she can just continually bully her opponent and move them to the corner. More so in the PSX build where she has more safe options now. You're going to get much more mileage out of just beating your opponents buttons and frame trapping them (she's probably the only character who can frame trap out of her V-Skill). Walking forward (with her great walkspeed) and hitting cr.mk can be enough, especially since she can combo out of cr.mk at max range into both arrow and spike.

But really, it's the whole "dark ages" walk forward and press buttons factor of V which is why alot of veteran players, especially on SRK, are calling her and Chun Li as characters that are secretly good (moreso Chun who has been called the secret top tier, for the same reasons as Cammy).
 
SaltShaker

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
d3v said:
The problem here is you're comparing her (and the game) to SFIV, which is wrong.

The design is much more like older games, where there's much more emphasis on pure buttons into buttons. Less about getting in and trying top mixup or open up your opponent.

Cammy's gameplan is the same as it is in CvS2 (where she was top tier). Classic Cammy's was not really about getting close and trying to open her opponent up, but rather about offensive footsies - where you're still playing the spacing/poking game, but at closer range, pushing your opponent into the corner, or punishing anything they put out. It's basically the old Ricky Ortiz style of playing seemingly defensively, but still pushing your opponent into the corner.

In V, she can just continually bully her opponent and move them to the corner. More so in the PSX build where she has more safe options now. You're going to get much more mileage out of just beating your opponents buttons and frame trapping them (she's probably the only character who can frame trap out of her V-Skill). Walking forward (with her great walkspeed) and hitting cr.mk can be enough, especially since she can combo out of cr.mk at max range into both arrow and spike.

But really, it's the whole "dark ages" walk forward and press buttons factor of V which is why alot of veteran players, especially on SRK, are calling her and Chun Li as characters that are secretly good (moreso Chun who has been called the secret top tier, for the same reasons as Cammy).
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To chime in, I agree with you and got the same impression. I'm from the old school era of SF so to me Chun-Li clicked by far more than any other character. I liked Karin too but Chun was just the it factor. She's just felt "right" and brings me back to the old days when using her being that she was my main in 3S which is one of my all time favorite games.

With that being said I didn't get the same feeling with Cammy. She just felt "meh". Looking across what some of these SFV characters are packing she felt lacking, and I was letdown being that she's my actual favorite in the series. I'm not one of those people to panic prerelease, but my initial impression was "pretty bad". Looking at what some of these characters are capable of like Necalli, Rashid, Birdie, Chun-Li, etc, she seems outgunned right now.

Do you think her normals/footsie game is strong enough to hang with the casts current toolsets? I'm not so sure but it's still way too early to think negative.
 
mercureXI

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
d3v said:
The problem here is you're comparing her (and the game) to SFIV, which is wrong.

The design is much more like older games, where there's much more emphasis on pure buttons into buttons. Less about getting in and trying top mixup or open up your opponent.

Cammy's gameplan is the same as it is in CvS2 (where she was top tier). Classic Cammy's was not really about getting close and trying to open her opponent up, but rather about offensive footsies - where you're still playing the spacing/poking game, but at closer range, pushing your opponent into the corner, or punishing anything they put out. It's basically the old Ricky Ortiz style of playing seemingly defensively, but still pushing your opponent into the corner.

In V, she can just continually bully her opponent and move them to the corner. More so in the PSX build where she has more safe options now. You're going to get much more mileage out of just beating your opponents buttons and frame trapping them (she's probably the only character who can frame trap out of her V-Skill). Walking forward (with her great walkspeed) and hitting cr.mk can be enough, especially since she can combo out of cr.mk at max range into both arrow and spike.

But really, it's the whole "dark ages" walk forward and press buttons factor of V which is why alot of veteran players, especially on SRK, are calling her and Chun Li as characters that are secretly good (moreso Chun who has been called the secret top tier, for the same reasons as Cammy).
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We'll see about that when the game comes out.

But honestly, really not sure having a good poke will be enough to push her over mid-tier.

I agree with SaltShaker and I don't really feel she has enough tools in her arsenal to compare with characters like Chun for example.
 
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