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Sep. 29th 2020 Presidential Debate Discussion

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
You underestimate the stupidity of many Americans. A very large number still support Trump, and even think he’s done a great job handling the virus. I live in Florida and Trump is quite popular here.
It's easy to chalk that up to many Americans being stupid (and not that I'm going to disagree), but it's also important to remember that Trump's whole approach towards his base is to create an alternate reality--one where Trump is the victim of a liberal mainstream media conspiracy, every negative news story is "fake" and just trying to make him look bad, and his supporters should disbelieve anything not coming from Fox News or Trump himself.

It's a master propaganda tactic actually, inspired by other autocrats and dictators around the world. You hook into Trump-world for some reason or another (e.g., his promises to increase blue collar jobs, or crack down on illegal immigration), eventually buy into his "victim" image and anti-media bias (b/c it fits so well with his "political outsider fighting the man" schtick), and steadily become more and more mistrusting and disconnected from any other source of information. It's not necessarily that his base is stupid, but they become conditioned to automatically disregard any information that might otherwise change their minds.

The pandemic finally made some cracks in his armor only because it's hitting everyone right where they live. It gets hard to deny the reality right in front of your eyes even if your leader is telling you to.
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
As an outsider I think the US focuses on the wrong things. Presidents come and go, parties are in power or not and control parts of the government or not... but what is going on in America with the courts is a totally different story. The supream court are life time appointments and it is here and to some extent the lower courts that many of the major decisions are made into law that effect normal people. Pages and pages on the debate, but my take is that the battle has been lost/won. Even if Trump stays in office or not, having a far right court is going to change America and it will be a change that will last a generation.
 

LeoMK29

Noob
As an outsider I think the US focuses on the wrong things. Presidents come and go, parties are in power or not and control parts of the government or not... but what is going on in America with the courts is a totally different story. The supream court are life time appointments and it is here and to some extent the lower courts that many of the major decisions are made into law that effect normal people. Pages and pages on the debate, but my take is that the battle has been lost/won. Even if Trump stays in office or not, having a far right court is going to change America and it will be a change that will last a generation.
Sadly this is true. Republicans are hypocrites regarding this issue. They didn’t let Obama appoint a new judge when it was like 8 months before an election because they said it was too close. And now look at them ramming a new judge in, now less than a month before an election.

Im at the point where if Democrats get a hold of the senate, then I think they should pack the Supreme Court with more liberal judges. Expand that shit add more judges. No one plays fair anymore so who gaf.

but being a Supreme Court judge should not be a lifetime thing.
 

Vslayer

Juiced Moose On The Loose
Lead Moderator
I mean maybe, but the article says most of them were wearing masks (can’t say for sure I wasn’t there).
 

Jynks

some heroes are born, some made, some wondrous
except they weren't... just google US riot videos... plenty of people no masks, as in 1000ends.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Just a note that I'm going to close this fairly soon so that it stays a thread about the debate, instead of becoming a years-long megathread of random political stuff. Will probably open a new one for the VP debate :)
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
except they weren't... just google US riot videos... plenty of people no masks, as in 1000ends.
Except you've got anecdotal evidence and she's got a peer reviewed paper. At best you could argue that the trend from May to June, the time period in which the paper was conducted, didn't hold up afterwards, but that's total conjecture, especially given that the highest volume of protests happened in that time period.

Social distancing was followed to a large enough degree in the majority of protests and non-protester activities were suppressed enough that the BLM movement did not statistically impact covid-19 spread at the time.

Here's the paper her article cites. https://www.nber.org/papers/w27408
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Just a note that I'm going to close this fairly soon so that it stays a thread about the debate, instead of becoming a years-long megathread of random political stuff. Will probably open a new one for the VP debate :)
What’s wrong with that? If people are active and wanna discuss random political stuff I don’t see an issue with that. It’s better than zero activity on the site.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
Lefties go riot and "peacefully protest" in large masses while a major pandemic is happening. Monkey see, monkey do, right Leo?
Please stop trying.
Your people literally stormed a state capitol with machine guns because they couldn't get a haircut.
You lose. Always.

Back to the topic at hand.
I don't want Trump to die.
I just want him out if commission long enough to miss the rest of the election.
Let him return to full and robust health on November 4th, when he's beat and spends the next two months waiting for the Southern District of New York to kick down his door.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
It's easy to chalk that up to many Americans being stupid (and not that I'm going to disagree), but it's also important to remember that Trump's whole approach towards his base is to create an alternate reality--one where Trump is the victim of a liberal mainstream media conspiracy, every negative news story is "fake" and just trying to make him look bad, and his supporters should disbelieve anything not coming from Fox News or Trump himself.
The whole existence of Black Lives Matter is predicated on an alternative reality in which Black people must live in constant terror because racist police officers are pursuing every opportunity to hunt them down. When you indicate the fact that the overwhelming majority of contact between police and civilians is peaceful, that the vast majority of homicides are intra-racial, that Black communities are opposed to defunding the police, etc., you are either racist or spreading racist propaganda or engaging in implicit bias. Trump is wrong to call the mainstream media "fake news" and "enemy of the public", but he is right about the fact that he rarely receives positive coverage aside from Fox News, even when he does something right.

Just a note that I'm going to close this fairly soon so that it stays a thread about the debate, instead of becoming a years-long megathread of random political stuff. Will probably open a new one for the VP debate :)
I am not sure that we need a new thread for every debate. I was thinking that we could keep all the debate discussions, including the vice presidential one, in one thread.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
I'm guessing this issue has been discussed at length in the other political thread, so we probably don't need to beat this horse here too. I'll just add a few thoughts and then let it go.
The whole existence of Black Lives Matter is predicated on an alternative reality in which Black people must live in constant terror because racist police officers are pursuing every opportunity to hunt them down.
BLM is a human organization, so naturally it contains some bad actors: people who advocate violence as a "solution", or exaggerate threats and fearmonger in order to scare people into supporting them. That's the standard playbook for the right-wing extremist groups the president thinks are full of "fine" people, but I haven't seen anything convincing to show that describes most or even many BLM supporters.

The existence of BLM is predicated on the argument that institutional racism exists, we should call attention to it, and enact policies to address it. Similar to the way the MeToo movement is predicated on the argument that it's time to stop being silent and looking the other way when sexism and misogyny allows a culture of sexual harassment to flourish. You hardly have to believe in some nightmare scenario about police officers "hunting" black people to support BLM, just like you don't have to believe that all men are sexual predators to support MeToo. Both notions are absurd on their face.
When you indicate the fact that the overwhelming majority of contact between police and civilians is peaceful...
True--but this is the logical equivalent of arguing that the COVID-19 pandemic is no big deal because the illness only hospitalizes and kills a small percentage of those who catch it. Just because the worst outcome is rare doesn't mean we don't need to take it seriously. We still have a very limited understanding of who's most susceptible to COVID, who will recover without issue, and who will succumb to it. It's the unpredictability of not knowing how much risk you're at that's the most serious part.

Similarly, yes, most interactions with police officers are peaceful--but especially as a black person, you never know when you'll run into the wrong cop at the wrong time, and whether that cop feels any sense of accountability for his/her actions if things escalate. George Floyd didn't go looking for a fight, and didn't even resist, and got his windpipe crushed for no reason. Again, it's that feeling of unpredictable risk--and lack of accountability--that drives the cultural mistrust of police.
...that the vast majority of homicides are intra-racial...
People bring this up all the time as if it means something relevant, and it doesn't. We live in a segmented society, where most people live in a community where the resident majority are the same race and culture. Communities of color tend to be more population dense and have a higher poverty rate, both of which are known to drive up crime. Most crimes are crimes of opportunity, and are perpetrated on the people and things within one's community. Ergo, most crimes--including homicides--are intra-racial.

It's simple numbers. How does this in any way imply that police brutality and institutional racism are not issues? Again, this is the equivalent of arguing that because people are more likely to die in a car accident than from contracting COVID, the pandemic is therefore no big deal and doesn't need to be taken seriously. Completely devoid of any logic.
...that Black communities are opposed to defunding the police, etc...
Very few people are in favor of literally defunding police departments. That's just another right-wing scare tactic meme meant to make supporters sound more radical than they actually are. What people want is for communities to put more money into services that can actually help them heal and grow, like mental health or job training resources. Stop asking police officers to do jobs they're not trained or qualified to do. You won't need as many police officers if you direct some of that money towards reducing crime instead of throwing law enforcement at everything after the fact. Of course it's a tricky balance to find, but people are ready to have those discussions, if various bad actors would stop distorting and fearmongering.
...you are either racist or spreading racist propaganda or engaging in implicit bias.
Well, I don't know you and maybe you truly are not doing any of those things. But by design, these kinds of arguments are expressly meant to invalidate BLM and contend that it has no legitimate grievance. That position is squarely at odds with U.S. history and stacks upon stacks of socioeconomic data. So they are inherently dishonest arguments, and tend to be the darling talking points of people who either have a racist agenda, or simply feel threatened and uncomfortable by the fact that 'white privilege' is a real thing and are grasping at straws to try to deny it.

Is any of that you? I have no idea. But you can't really blame people for drawing that conclusion.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
We still have a very limited understanding of who's most susceptible to COVID, who will recover without issue, and who will succumb to it.
I agree with most of your post as well as the comparison you're drawing between COVID/police interactions. But do we really not? I feel like we have quite a bit of data on who should be scared of dying of COVID.
 
Just looking at did they die or not is a bit of a bad measure, when we're not sure of the long-term effects. Especially when it comes to vague stuff like 'I am just tired and out of breath all the time'.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Just looking at did they die or not is a bit of a bad measure, when we're not sure of the long-term effects. Especially when it comes to vague stuff like 'I am just tired and out of breath all the time'.
Definitely a fair point, his statement made 3 claims though: we don't know who is most susceptible, who will recover without issue, and who will succumb to it. I'm making the claim that we absolutely know who is most susceptible and who will likely succumb to it. What you said here definitely addresses that we really don't know how covid victims will recover in the long term (even if we could probably make some close guesses for the most part), so I'll have to agree with you.
 

Obly

Ambiguous world creator
I agree with most of your post as well as the comparison you're drawing between COVID/police interactions. But do we really not? I feel like we have quite a bit of data on who should be scared of dying of COVID.
Yes, we know with certainty about some of the groups who definitely are at risk: the elderly, people with comorbid medical conditions like hypertension, diabetes, compromised immune systems, etc.

The main issue is that we don't know with certainty that any group is truly low risk. Worse, we keep getting conflicting information about it. Some sources said early on that younger, healthy adults are unlikely to get seriously ill, so tons of younger adults started going back to work and their social lives--and then we learned that hospitalizations among young adults are shooting up, and in particular, new data emerged showing that younger COVID victims were vulnerable to severe outcomes like stroke, even if they had no other underlying comorbid condition.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/14/health/coronavirus-strokes.html

Similarly, we hear that children are at low risk for the disease (so get those schools open immediately!), but new data are emerging showing that children can carry high viral loads even if they are asymptomatic, so it turns out they can easily bring home the virus and infect the adults in their household.
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/children-may-be-silent-carriers-of-covid-19

My point was not just about population groups either, by also uncertainty about transmission vectors. Since the beginning of the pandemic, we were told that droplet transmission was the big threat, so as long as we maintained six feet of distance, didn't sneeze or cough on each other, and sanitized surfaces, we were safe. But again, data have emerged showing that the virus also spreads via aerosol transmission--so just being in an enclosed, insufficiently ventilated space with people talking, singing, or what not is high risk as well. And of course our own gov't is making matters much worse by constantly sending mixed messages about who or what is or is not safe.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/21/cdc-covid-aerosols-airborne-guidelines/

I don't mean to veer way off topic here. The point is just that with this pandemic, every time we think we know that X group or Y activity is "low risk", so far it's been proven wrong once the research is done. So it leaves us with this sense of uneasiness, because it's so hard to know when you're truly safe.

I'd argue that police brutality is similar in that respect. Yes, it's statistically rare over the course of all interactions with police officers, but when you have to approach every interaction with uncertainty about whether your physical safety is at risk, it creates global distrust that harms community well-being and law enforcement effectiveness regardless of anything else.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Well, I don't know you and maybe you truly are not doing any of those things. But by design, these kinds of arguments are expressly meant to invalidate BLM and contend that it has no legitimate grievance. That position is squarely at odds with U.S. history and stacks upon stacks of socioeconomic data. So they are inherently dishonest arguments, and tend to be the darling talking points of people who either have a racist agenda, or simply feel threatened and uncomfortable by the fact that 'white privilege' is a real thing and are grasping at straws to try to deny it.

Is any of that you? I have no idea. But you can't really blame people for drawing that conclusion.
And you cannot blame me for accusing people like you of Marxism because you intend to implement radical economic and social changes by instilling guilt, fear, and loathing among different groups of people, whom you apparently classify based on historical oppression. My argument has been that America's previous injustices such as slavery and Jim Crow laws, which were brutal and gruesome, can unfortunately not be undone with the wave of a magic wand or a benign government program. In spite of programs like the War on Poverty and Affirmative Action, the wage gap between Blacks and Whites has remained stable since the Civil Rights movement. The reality is that the only way to climb the socioeconomic ladder is through one's own merit, which most Blacks have been able to do in America. Nonetheless, if you subjugate and discriminate against a group of people for hundreds of years, contemporary disparities will exist, and if you defined white privilege in this manner, I would agree, but you do not, which brings me to my subsequent argument.

I am not at all threatened by white privilege as much as I am ridiculing the concept. I have already discussed my experience as a white immigrant from the Balkans after the Yugoslav Wars in the 1990s. After losing every piece of property that my family and I owned, I would imagine that the majority of minorities in modern America would find themselves in a superior position than we did. However, advocators of white privilege continue painting all white people with a broad brush stripping them off of their individualism. What a disgrace.

This debate could proceed for another ten pages, but I firmly believe that people like you have feelings on your side while people like me have facts on our side. As far as solutions are concerned, only one matters.