Sep. 29th 2020 Presidential Debate Discussion

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Sigh.

Seconded sigh.

 

[Obly]

Thanks @M2Dave for the added thoughts. You're right that this debate could probably go on ad infinitum, but I think we can agree not to do that. I have a pretty good sense of how that debate would go, and I don't think it would be particularly informative or interesting for anyone.

It's interesting that you decry the use of a "broad brush" to paint folks with sweeping assumptions, yet seem perfectly willing to use the same brush on me, making all kinds of assumptions: that I have a radical Marxist agenda, wield guilt and fear as weapons, and believe 'white privilege' is something that applies solely according to the color of your skin. None of those are true, or even logically coherent.

You don't have to support some extreme 'welfare state' policy just to acknowledge that institutional racism exists, is wrong, and should be addressed. It's a product of the fact that minority groups' interests (often people of color but not exclusively) have been actively lobbied against and suppressed by those in power basically since the country's founding. The people doing the suppressing, and the people who have benefitted most (actively or passively) from that suppression, happen to be white. So 'white privilege' is a convenient label, but seriously idgaf--call it whatever you like. But in no way do you have to hold some silly, illogical belief that every white person everywhere has benefitted equally from it, or that every black person has been irreparably harmed by it, to understand the severe, sweeping effects it's had at the societal level.

Anyway, I'll make inferences here that may or may not 100% apply to you, but my experience has been that it's pointless to debate people who talk from the extremes (on either side) or make unjustified extremist assumptions about other people. One, because practicable real-world policy solutions are very rarely extreme, so people who advocate for them generally shouldn't be taken seriously. Two, extremist assumptions about others are always self-serving: The faster you can apply the worst labels and set of beliefs to me, the faster you can stop listening and go back to your comfortable talking points. Such conversations are neither intellectually honest nor constructive.

Sanctimony is also dishonest and unconstructive. Both extremes cherry-pick "facts" that are twisted and misinterpreted to fit a particular preconceived notion you're trying to support. I could fill a whole separate debate pointing out the feelings you misrepresent as "facts" in just the last few posts. I have my own feeling though that others have already done plenty of the same, so I'm dropping it here as I said. Have a good one tho.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

The whole existence of Black Lives Matter is predicated on an alternative reality in which Black people must live in constant terror because racist police officers are pursuing every opportunity to hunt them down. When you indicate the fact that the overwhelming majority of contact between police and civilians is peaceful, that the vast majority of homicides are intra-racial, that Black communities are opposed to defunding the police, etc., you are either racist or spreading racist propaganda or engaging in implicit bias.

That's like saying "Don't bother to lock your door, the vast majority of houses aren't robbed and the vast majority of people don't steal things. If you see your daughter going off with a stranger who is giving her candy, just let her, because it's probably fine".

What you don't seem to understand is that BLM is about the entire experience, not just 'hunting people down'. It's about the entire process leading up to these situations, the biases around them, and the way that interactions are handled. The fact that most people aren't victims doesn't mean that it's any less important to advocate for the people who are. Period.

As someone who has been stopped for extended periods of time for simply driving my car and doing absolutely nothing out of the ordinary, I can tell you that the only people who think this is an 'alternate reality' are the people who don't have to deal with it. It's like me saying that the wars in Yugoslavia weren't a big deal because 1) They didn't affect me directly and 2) Most people from former Yugoslavia survived rather than died. That would be absolutely stupid.

Presumably your lives were changed by the war even though your parents left and you aren't dead, and likewise my life is affected by racism under the guise of authority even though I haven't been killed by a police officer. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

 

[M2Dave]

It's like me saying that the wars in Yugoslavia weren't a big deal because 1) They didn't affect me directly and 2) Most people from former Yugoslavia survived rather than died. That would be absolutely stupid.

First of all, both statements might be considered insensitive, but they are factually accurate so calling them "absolutely stupid" is a hyperbole.

Second of all, I dislike identify arguments. I only mention my past experiences to disprove white privilege. My family and I have moved on with our lives. Whatever happened happened decades ago, and some things that happened could have been a lot worse. I live my life in America as an American and I could not care less about the past.

You, on the other hand, only seem to be interested in complaining instead of offering solutions. Let me be clear and state that I am not comparing my family's past experiences to yours. I fully understand that the Black experience in America has been particularly agonizing, but people who think as you do are moving society backward instead of forward. These ideas of institutional racism, critical race theory, white privilege, etc. will unfortunately cause severe damage to minorities, especially children, for many years to come. If I am taught that all institutions persecute me, that white people have an inherent advantage over me because of the color of their skin, and that the American Dream is a facade, I am unlikely to succeed, and even if I succeed, I will become spiteful and condemn the system. LeBron James, who is one of the richest NBA players of all time, is the perfect example of someone who is inconceivably successful and influential yet constantly reminds everyone how racist America is. How any sensible human being can take anything he says seriously is beyond me. Sonic Fox, who is exceedingly successful by fighting game community standards, is another person who engages in identical propaganda.

 

[KingHippo]

I will become spiteful and condemn the system.

Oh God

 

[CrimsonShadow]

First of all, both statements might be considered insensitive, but they are factually accurate so calling them "absolutely stupid" is a hyperbole.

Second of all, I dislike identify arguments. I only mention my past experiences to disprove white privilege. My family and I have moved on with our lives. Whatever happened happened decades ago, and some things that happened could have been a lot worse. I live my life in America as an American and I could not care less about the past.

You, on the other hand, only seem to be interested in complaining instead of offering solutions. Let me be clear and state that I am not comparing my family's past experiences to yours. I fully understand that the Black experience in America has been particularly agonizing, but people who think as you do are moving society backward instead of forward. These ideas of institutional racism, critical race theory, white privilege, etc. will unfortunately cause severe damage to minorities, especially children, for many years to come. If I am taught that all institutions persecute me, that white people have an inherent advantage over me because of the color of their skin, and that the American Dream is a facade, I am unlikely to succeed, and even if I succeed, I will become spiteful and condemn the system. LeBron James, who is one of the richest NBA players of all time, is the perfect example of someone who is inconceivably successful and influential yet constantly reminds everyone how racist America is. How any sensible human being can take anything he says seriously is beyond me. Sonic Fox, who is exceedingly successful by fighting game community standards, is another person who engages in identical propaganda.

1) Saying that a problem doesn’t exist because it doesn’t affect you or doesn’t affect everyone is factually incorrect; not correct. Most people are not trafficked as children or killed in genocides, yet we still continue to fight against child trafficking and human rights violations because it is important do so, and the victims often do not have the resources to do it themselves.

2) Anecdotal evidence does not disprove an entire societal phenomenon. You cannot ‘disprove white privilege’ because you feel you didn’t benefit from it any more than I can disprove the value/opportunity of the stock market because I’m not personally holding stocks. This is a gigantic logical fallacy.

3) You are wrong. It is precisely the people with the most resources and the loudest reach who need to stick up and speak out for others who aren’t in the situation that they are. Lebron James speaks out because he has the platform to help others who will not be heard in the same way. If the people who reach the top simply abandon others and ignore their difficulties then we collectively get nowhere.

4) My goal is not to complain. My goal is to acknowledge the existence of a problem so that we can take steps toward fixing it. You cannot fix an issue that you refuse to acknowledge exists. So I direct my effort here towards pointing out the loads of historical evidence that speaks toward real problems affecting millions of people. And correcting those who’d like to pretend this history doesn’t exist or suddenly has zero effect on the present day.