Strategy Rush Down Sub Zero vs Sektor

[Seapeople]

Osu 16 Bit Sub's d4 is neutral on block so you can't really punish it.

Also I don't know why anybody would d1 with Sub as it is his worst poke: -14 on block and -6 on hit lol. Sub's d3 is as fast as all of Sektor's pokes. Sorry if this has already been mentioned, there's a lot of info going around in this thread lol

 

[PND_Mustard]

Osu 16 Bit Sub's d4 is neutral on block so you can't really punish it.

Also I don't know why anybody would d1 with Sub as it is his worst poke: -14 on block and -6 on hit lol. Sub's d3 is as fast as all of Sektor's pokes. Sorry if this has already been mentioned, there's a lot of info going around in this thread lol

16 bit was talking about whiffed d4's.

 

[16 Bit]

Osu 16 Bit Sub's d4 is neutral on block so you can't really punish it.

Also I don't know why anybody would d1 with Sub as it is his worst poke: -14 on block and -6 on hit lol. Sub's d3 is as fast as all of Sektor's pokes. Sorry if this has already been mentioned, there's a lot of info going around in this thread lol

I'm saying you punish it on whiff. Sektor can chill right outside Sub's d+4 range, wait for a d+4 to whiff then f+2.

 

[Seapeople]

I'm saying you punish it on whiff. Sektor can chill right outside Sub's d+4 range, wait for a d+4 to whiff then f+2.

Gotcha, my bad

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I hate saying this... but he can do the electric punch into full punish combo on a whiffed d4 with good reactions.

And Just to say this. Sub player has to be ON POINT to not get hit by a follow up 1 after f2. That move is so fast.

That is all I got really. I applaud your efforts to level up Sektor.

 

[SwiftTomHanks]

I hate saying this... but he can do the electric punch into full punish combo on a whiffed d4 with good reactions.

And Just to say this. Sub player has to be ON POINT to not get hit by a follow up 1 after f2. That move is so fast.

That is all I got really. I applaud your efforts to level up Sektor.

Don't worry too much about the standing 1. While it's 6 frames, just block low and it whiffs. It's only applicable after a jailed jip really.Then if Sektor goes for 11b1, 122, 12b1, or 124 you can full combo punish him while he finishes the string.

The b2 recommendation is nice, yet its reach can't compare to that of f2.

 

[CptXecution]

I've yet to face many high level Sektors (The only one I faced has since gone to Marvel and before I used Sub) but from what I've learned is exactly in that video...mid screen Sektor needs to control the space and definitely not back himself into the corner. Sub's corner game is very good against Sektor because of no armor and fear of getting the teleport punished. Best way out of it is ex teleport or hope he jumps in and you catch him with a flamethrower.

Always been a fan STH, I love watching your Sektor in tournaments...very entertaining.

 

[Bidu]

LOL it would be hilarious if brady would comeback to sub zero after watching this vid. You never know.

No, actually I know better. It's not happening, trust me lol.

I refuse to play casuals with anyone outside my close group of training partners so they do not learn the match up.

There goes any respect I had for you. Coward! Muhahahaha!

 

[PND_Mustard]

me and ketchup just watched the entire set.

without sounding like dicks we noticed you making a lot of bad decisions, you did some bad breakers, going for combos that corner yourself, bad times to up missile and very little anti air, i dont think he did a single air clone over the whole set but you never anti aired with anything other than a flamethrower, which you mistimed quite a lot, you didnt isntant air any iceballs and you never threw out any EX telecuts to show him you're not afraid to do so, which isnt bad as its safe and the worst you eat is a bit of chip, its only sub zero pressure midscreen.

when sub zero had you cornered you were getting LOADS of successful flame burners as he never tried to trade with them, yet you would stop doing them which in turn gave him multiple d4's and free jump ins, as you werent anti airing.

everytime he jumped at you on your wakeup was a free EXtelecut but you never did it, you also went for damage over up missile advantage, which as i said earlier in the thread is VERY useful, dont finish a combo and THEN UM, finish your combo WITH the UM that way if you have meter you could always replace it with a homing missile just to get that added pressure for rockets etc.

one crucial thing ketchup noticed was you never went for the 122 string, yes he can poke out and it whiffs sometimes, but you did get quite alot of successful 12's on block which coulda been 122 etc, it didnt really look like it was down to the matchup, it was actually down to you, remember sektors corner game is awesome too, im aware he broke alot when you had him there but thats just him being good with meter.

this is just our view on it, so dont take it to heart, we hope it helps somewhat.

 

[PND_Ketchup]

Would have replied earlier but i went to sleep yesterday and have been out all day till now.

What Mustard said.

 

[SwiftTomHanks]

Thanks guys.

Early in our fights (not this set) Death can jump while I'm waiting up and time his punch to beat out my wake up EXTU. That's why I didn't do it here. We're not sure if this is going to turn into a 100% stuff of EXTU wake up, but the whole night it had it every time.

I did flame too much and not go for anti air instead. However when the ice clone is right next to you, you can not do any normals (even a standing 1) since it hits the ice clone. He grants a ton of free jump ins this way. I still feel like flame thrower is my only option.

From sweep distance it's much easier said than done to itu a ice ball. You have to respect the option of slide as well and can not on reaction tell the difference between ice and slide then itu... well at least I can't. From full screen or 3/4 he would never ice blast.

The reason why I never ended with up missile is because I thought I would want sub at full screen. I am rethinking this now however.

All the advice here from you two is great, much appreciated.

 

[salvificblood]

Some tips to help you against Sub-Zero:

Sub-Zero's pressure is actually crap midscreen. If you notice, he always does 21 followed by d3, quite often hit confirming the d3 into a follow up d4 or 21 again. That isn't even that good since you can jump the d3 for free. Here's why. If Sub-Zero ends the string, he cannot hit confirm the last part of the string into an iceball to punish you for attempting to jump out. Eating the 2 is much better than being stuck in the pressure. Midscreen, Sub should has to end his strings against somebody who knows the matchup because there's no reason not to jump out of 21 pressure. Even if he cancels 21 into a clone, you can jump back and if Sub attempts to do anything, you can iatp. 21, d3, is more a way of ensuring you get punished by somebody who knows the matchup. I know this because this was all stuff I tried when trying to redevelope Sub-Zero. Sub's better off ending his strings against you, methodically pushing you towards the corner.

Also, b121 isn't very good either. b121 offers no wall carry so Sub stepping in and throwing you is better than him ending his combo in the slide since he can do a lot more off a slide knockdown due to it being untechable. The point behind b121 is to try and make you tech the throw because Sub players think people will actually try and tech the throw after the b121 for some reason... so they can then start doing 21, 22, etc the next time. That's garbage. The only place b121 is effective is in the corner because it guarantees a 212, into clone blockstring where Sub can then mix you up with slides into the clone, f4's, throws and more pressure strings... that's it...

In the corner, Sub beats everybody. That's how he gets around bad matchups. If he didn't have that, he'd be completely worthless as a character in MK9. Asking for an easy way out isn't exactly fair on Sub-Zero since the Sub player should have to work really hard to corner you once you understand Sub's options as a Sektor player. He should also have to work really hard to keep you there once you have a good understanding of the timer on the clone...

 

[Somberness]

Repeated down 4s (from any character) can be countered by a down 3, this is because on crouch hit, down 3s have close to the advantage down 4s have on standing. Use more down 3!

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Some tips to help you against Sub-Zero:



Also, b121 isn't very good either. b121 offers no wall carry so Sub stepping in and throwing you is better than him ending his combo in the slide since he can do a lot more off a slide knockdown due to it being untechable. The point behind b121 is to try and make you tech the throw because Sub players think people will actually try and tech the throw after the b121 for some reason... so they can then start doing 21, 22, etc the next time. That's garbage. The only place b121 is effective is in the corner because it guarantees a 212, into clone blockstring where Sub can then mix you up with slides into the clone, f4's, throws and more pressure strings... that's it...

lol... b121 is his BEST string. The problem is that everyone seems to think that just stepping in and 2,1 or 2,2 is the way to go... when in fact throwing is the way to go. It does the MOST damage and puts him in a favorable position. No one ever conditions someone to tech a throw... so yeah it is pretty useless that way. But doing only 28% as apposed to 35% is a huge huge difference for only about a dash of wall carry.

I agree that Subs pressure isn't good at mid screen against anyone who can duck the 2.... but you are sadly mistaken if you think he has to finish strings against Sektor. The only thing I fear is 1 at that distance, and I can d4 it, then continue my pressure. The problem is GETTING into that range on a consistent basis, and that is where Sektor shines.

 

[Enenra]

Lmao at sub being bottom 5.

THANK YOU SWIFT. Sub Zero is a character I've been using a lot lately, and I have to say, most people play him straight wrong. They play him like the objective is get people into the ice clone... No, it's not. It's to get them to the corner. And one character gets out of that corner without fighting tooth and nail and making awesome reads, Raiden, who has that godlike teleport. I really think Sub Zero should be re-approached match up wise and tier wise, but by someone who knows what the hell they are doing.

Death and SwiftTomHanks: 15 idol points. You guys rock. I hope to see you blow up more Sub Zero match ups by playing Sub the right way Death. Hats off.

 

[SwiftTomHanks]

Repeated down 4s (from any character) can be countered by a down 3, this is because on crouch hit, down 3s have close to the advantage down 4s have on standing. Use more down 3!

The push back on Sub's blocked d4 puts my d3 out of range. After a blocked d4, I can't poke him with d1,d3,or d4 unless he comes in again for another d4.

 

[Somberness]

The push back on Sub's blocked d4 puts my d3 out of range. After a blocked d4, I can't poke him with d1,d3,or d4 unless he comes in again for another d4.

But he can't do anything from out of that range. Once he is in range, you can interrupt it.

 

[salvificblood]

lol... b121 is his BEST string. The problem is that everyone seems to think that just stepping in and 2,1 or 2,2 is the way to go... when in fact throwing is the way to go. It does the MOST damage and puts him in a favorable position. No one ever conditions someone to tech a throw... so yeah it is pretty useless that way. But doing only 28% as apposed to 35% is a huge huge difference for only about a dash of wall carry.

I agree that Subs pressure isn't good at mid screen against anyone who can duck the 2.... but you are sadly mistaken if you think he has to finish strings against Sektor. The only thing I fear is 1 at that distance, and I can d4 it, then continue my pressure. The problem is GETTING into that range on a consistent basis, and that is where Sektor shines.

I understand the mentality behind b121, it's just wrong. It constrains you to doing one thing, dashing in and throwing and if you try and do anything else, you'll probably end up having to settle for a blockstring. While this does give you chip and meter, it puts you back in the neutral game. The problem with trying to add the damage of the throw onto what you got for the combo this way is that, had you ended your combo in a slide, how do you know your opponent wouldn't have made a mistake on his/her wakeup and given you another combo? Sub is a footsies and mindgames character who relies on cornering his opponent 100%. jip 214, slide or njp, b12212, slide has way more wall carry than jip, b121, dash in and throw, lol, which is not a combo anyway so can't be spoken of as though it is because you can always get the timing of your throw wrong, whiff it and get punished by full combo or try to make good on some of those options you have after b121 and guess wrong. You'd be crazy to do b121 against a character like Raiden rather than 214, slide. The b2 mixup is way more valuable midscreen to Sub-Zero than jip, b121 after a 22, freeze, in my opinion. Nobody has ever jumped or poked me out of b2 because I have the timing down to pretty much the frame they unfreeze.

Also, look at the spacing the throw knockdown leaves you at opposed to the slide ender. The slide leaves you right where you want to be, while the throw puts you way outside of f4, d4, range, meaning you have to dash in to start your offense again. I am pretty sure your opponent can just back dash to make you whiff a d4 or f4 at that range, too. I remember throwing Cage, dashing in to d4 and him stepping back and b3 whiff punishing my d4.

 

[NKZero]

tom can you please tell us who the new character is? (unless u have already). i always thought it would be kano...

 

[salvificblood]

sektor punishes a whiff d+4 with B+2~TP EASILY.. then sub dies. also, in open space sub cannot follow up D+4 on block with 21 because you can jump back every time, you can even d+3/d+1

sub-zero is bottom 8-10.. this is FACT!!!! no one else will ever play 100% sub-zero and fight the bullshit that i had to work miracles against (Kabal, KL, Raiden, FUCKING KENSHI!!!!, etc). the character sucks unless kano, cage, or cyber sub is on the screen. i'm even questioning the cage/kano vs sub match now as well because i believe i'll beat any sub with cage/kano. sub just has way to many weaknesses!!!

FINALLY seriously dropping sub was the best thing i ever did..

**awaits insults, trolls, flames**

I think you understand Sub better than the rest of us, to be honest, and I agree with you about Cage. A Johnny Cage who doesn't know how to play Sub-Zero is really easy to beat even if he's pretty solid elsewhere but a Cage who understands the matchup... it's actually really hard to get and then keep a lifelead.

 

[Tom Brady]

ill make a vid tonight on beating sub with sektor.

 

[SwiftTomHanks]

ill make a vid tonight on beating sub with sektor.

It would be nice to see your opinion. As far as a spacing/zoning Sub goes, Sektor blows him up. What I would love input on is a sub who's sole purpose is to push you to the corner and a character's best options who has no armor nor get out of jail free cards like Raiden or Kitana.

 

[16 Bit]

Kitana doesn't have a get out of jail free card against Sub-Zero's corner pressure. Ass is about a good a solution as EX TPU(meaning pretty good but not free).

 

[Tom Brady]

 

[SwiftTomHanks]

Thank you.

IMO, the key thing you mentioned that I feel like a tard for not doing was to mash d1 after a blocked EXTU. You're absolutely right in there being NO reason not to if the first hit of his strings whiff on a low hit box opponent. Worst case scenario I get hit by a d4.

Secondly, you never have to argue with me that Sektor blows Sub Zero up while anyone but the corner. If you watch the fights with Death and I, I have him at around 20% and I'm at 80% every time until I get put in the corner.

Oh, flame in the corner while I was abusing it here is very unsafe against Sub Zero. Unless you are at full range, you can slide punish it on block. So d4 - ice clone - dash in block to bait. I will have to do one of three things: EXTU, uppercut, flame. I can not poke with anything since the ice clone is infront of my face, I can not jump over you if you stand right behind it due to spacing issues, flame is punishable on block, EXTU is a meter I might not have, whiffed uppercut gets blown up. It's really not a bad situation at all for Sub Zero seeing as the worst thing that could happen to him is perhaps I escape the corner with an EXTU followed by d1 if I have a meter.

Another thing I agree with you on is whiffing strings breaking a characters tournament viability. If you think Sub Zero is bad, Sektor's first and second hit on the majority of his strings whiff not only giving you an uppercut but a full combo. If people really want this illustrated I can film this tonight - and similar to you and Sub Zero, this is when I will have to put Sektor down for good once people wise up to this. With that said, Sektor's other tools are much better than Sub Zero's.

Side note, jumping back after a blocked or hit d4 into EXTU (wouldn't ever risk normal) has an issue. Sub can jump in either direction and do a late jumping punch. The tracking on Sektor's TU isn't as good as people think and gets beat out by a delayed punch. Death and I were labbing this and he has it to around a 90% success rate. Sure, you get blown up if you mess up - but that goes for a lot of things in MK.

And while the rush down Sub Zero may be smoke and mirrors - it seems better than trying to outzone zoning characters without armor like Sektor. I'm not here to argue that Sub Zero is tournament viable by the way. I support you dropping him or at least leaving him as a pocket character for some match ups; I plan on doing the same with Sektor.