What's new

Discussion Reactions vs Reads, what is the difference

Solomon Gorondy

Should Goro be top 5?
No person in the world will react at 7f to this reaction test its just not possible without guessing and anticipating.
http://labzerogames.com/iheartteyah/MilliaBlocker_v0.3.swf
Of course no one is going to block on reaction in 7 frames; the test times your reaction from when the NPC presses her button! Not when the signal for an overhead is given! It is important to differentiate between the two.

Also some other issues with the test...
  1. test doesn't account for input lag
  2. test doesn't account for monitor lag
  3. test doesn't account for online lag
  4. test doesn't list the FPS it is running
 

Solomon Gorondy

Should Goro be top 5?
This is the fastest human reaction speed; 0.101 seconds which is 7 frames in game. Here is the evidence...
https://www.reference.com/science/fastest-human-reaction-time-744b62945476fb5d

With that in mind here is a list of possible in game reaction speed to visual stimuli for human players from fastest to average....
7 frames = 101 to 116 milliseconds (0.101 seconds to 0.116 seconds)
8 frames = 117 to 133 milliseconds
9 frames = 134 to 150 milliseconds
10 frames = 151 to 166 milliseconds
11 frames = 167 to 183 milliseconds
12 frames = 184 to 200 milliseconds
13 frames = 201 to 216 milliseconds
14 frames = 217 to 233 milliseconds
15 frames = 234 to 250 milliseconds
16 frames = 251 to 266 milliseconds

Keep in mind this does not address input, monitor, or online lag, which will slow reaction speed.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
my average is 24 to 25.5 frames.

Since i suck at reacting, i just play a bunch of possibilities way ahead while playing and match my reads while reacting to things i've already planned my opponent would do afterwards.

So i may as well be a deciding factor in pace of a match, but i still get hit by Scorpion's F4 tho.
 

21122

Noob
How fast is Errons F1. Because I swear I always react to that mix up. I almost never get hit by that. Blocked like 86% of the time.
#BuffErron

F1 is pretty easy to react to.

I suck at reacting cuz my muscle memory likes to always low block.
 
a test where you simply react to a stimulus(light flashes>press button), is very different from how fighting games work (light flashes>process the stimulus>perform 1 specific action out of 20, which will probably require more than 1 input).

Not to mention fastest reaction speed ever doesn't mean that it's that guys average. Studies of Olympic level athletes put the average closer to 160-180 ms(the same study concluded that Olympic level sprinters could get a reaction time of around 109ms(for men), and 120ms(for women) only one out of every 1000 attempts. and an NCAA study had averages from 200-260ms for college age athletes.
 
Last edited:

Solomon Gorondy

Should Goro be top 5?
a test where you simply react to a stimulus(light flashes>press button), is very different from how fighting games work (light flashes>process the stimulus>perform 1 specific action out of 20, which will probably require more than 1 input).
It is not (light flashes > press button) it's (light flashes > process stimulus > press button). It can be very close to how fighting games work but it depends on the situation; I have already given an example.
Not to mention fastest reaction speed ever doesn't mean that it's that guys average. Studies of Olympic level athletes put the average closer to 160-180 ms(the same study concluded that Olympic level sprinters could get a reaction time of around 109ms(for men), and 120ms(for women) only one out of every 1000 attempts. and an NCAA study had averages from 200-260ms for college age athletes.
Very interesting; please post a link to the study. Anyways, the point I'm making is not that it can be done consistently; it's that it's possible for certain people to perform an anticipated reaction in 101 to 116ms.
 
It is not (light flashes > press button) it's (light flashes > process stimulus > press button). It can be very close to how fighting games work but it depends on the situation; I have already given an example.
Your example isn't a pure reaction though you're assuming someone is already blocking. And there's less information to process in that test than there is in a fighting game. You already know 100% what the correct response is to the stimulus. In a fighting game you're looking for multiple things at once(unless you're making a read) so a better test would be one with multiple lights each with a corresponding button on the right and a directional input on the left. I'd be willing to bet that the top reaction times double.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
OMG not this again,((((((If anyone claimes to block on pure reaction 7 frames or anything below 15 they are 100% full of shit)))))))) i thought we covered this like 5 threads ago, but whateve. Reads is anything below 15 frames no matter what you say, Reaction is actually seeing the move and registering it in your mind then doing the apporpriate response for it. Read is Johnny is gonna 11 into F24(that is not Reaction FYI) thats 100% read, and the fact i have herd some claim they can Block 7 frame moves or 14 frame moves on reaction is laughable.

so everyone remembers i showed a program called Milla Blocker and it tested reaction timing in Frames/Ms and Sonic Fox arguably the Fastes Reactions in the world only got 20 on average, that is right, he got a few 19's but Averaged his Reaction time was 20Frames. and some other top players got 23-25 and it did not mean they where slow that is good for a human. that is what we have proved that constant gameplay with a game and familiarity with moves we can start to block things as fast as 20/60th of a second that is Insain. Think of how it takes us near a second or 2 to react to a flash Car accident and Sonic Fox can react to a move in a game less than 1/8th the average human response.

So with that said its easier to block something fast like Johnny's F2 with A Read, Knowing a players tendencies and knowing they do F2 after a certain move, then you can block a 15 frame move. but its always able to Block a 33 frame move like Mileenas F3 Overhead when you are ready for it on pure reaction no problem. some can't even block that on reaction because they are new to the game and are not used to the moves animation and it does not mean they are bad, they just havent had that specific Matchup experience yet. we all have bad matchup experience. like im sure many are not so great against the under used characters like CSZ or Bo Rai Cho mixups.


If anyone has any questions they can look in the other 5 threads that have proven what i say. and there are still in this forum.

@Marinjuana is this better?
 
Last edited:

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
Reaction times of top players:
Scar: 8f
Foxy: 8f
Djt: 7f
Dragon: 9f
Sonicfox: 7f
Tom Brady: 5f
That is 100% false i personally did a Millia blocker test with Sonic a while back, and he averaged a consistant 20Frame Reaction time, and he was the Fastes of them all the others ranged from 21-27frame Reaction time.

Read my above post.

use this Program to Test your Average Reaction time, it displays the two animations of Overhead moves, and you have to block those two Overheads by hitiing a button, if you hit the button prematurly it fails you, if you mash it it fails you, but if you only hit it after it starts the Overhead move IE you see the move come out and React to it, it will tell you your time, and you must do this 5 times in a row to get an Average MEiudm time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Millia Blocker Reaction Test <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


i recommend you do this offline, to minimize Lag.

post your results below

Rules it means nothing if you post a result that failed and have one with 7 frame, that means you where READing it, thats why the rules state you can have Zero Fails to get your Average.

FUN FACT her OVERHEAD Kick is 20 Frames startup so if you can not get an average lower than 19 or lower you would not be able to block that 20 Frame Move On Pure Reaction and would get Comboed.
 
Last edited:

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
i got 25 ill upload it soon, and thats not bad, the wole reason the Millia Blocker was made was because players on dustloop forums where claiming on Gulty Gear they could Block 20 frame moves and they said her 20 frame move was a wierd animation like a 16 frame move. so to put the players to the test they played this game, and was onlya llowed one attempt, of course players diod this test for a year afterwards and the fastes time recoerded was average of 18 Frames. and thats with a full Year Of Practice with players who played this game.

Link

for my first time today that is a very good Score, some players average 29 on Dust Loop forums.



I'm fine with my score, because i know how the brain works after reading some test oin the subject, and that is literally better than 90% of average Humans. im doing that in 1/4th the time most people react in car accidents.

Post yours, and remember when we block its mostly off Reads, like what players usually do and telegraphed moves they don't even realize they do, like whan that sub Zero always does D4 into B2 without thinking, and im able to block a 10 Frame Move on reaction. i know my Reads are very good so it compensates for those 4 to 5 frames i lack
 
Last edited:

Tanno

The Fantasy is the Reality of the Mind
i got 25 ill upload it soon, and thats not bad, the wole reason the Millia Blocker was made was because players on dustloop forums where claiming on Gulty Gear they could Block 20 frame moves and they said her 20 frame move was a wierd animation like a 16 frame move. so to put the players to the test they played this game, and was onlya llowed one attempt, of course players diod this test for a year afterwards and the fastes time recoerded was average of 18 Frames. and thats with a full Year Of Practice with players who played this game.

Link

for my first time today that is a very good Score, some players average 29 on Dust Loop forums.



I'm fine with my score, because i know how the brain works after reading some test oin the subject, and that is literally better than 90% of average Humans. im doing that in 1/4th the time most people react in car accidents.

Post yours, and remember when we block its mostly off Reads, like what players usually do and telegraphed moves they don't even realize they do, like whan that sub Zero always does D4 into B2 without thinking, and im able to block a 10 Frame Move on reaction. i know my Reads are very good so it compensates for those 4 to 5 frames i lack
I was right on my thoughts. This is from Guilty Gear. The male one is Sol Badguy. Tried arcade box on this Guilty Gear Xrd Revelation at my mate's house. Who's this chick there?

BTW gotta DL those programs (this one and Joy2stick) to try my reaction. Does Motionjoy work?
 
The key word is anticipation for most cases when you specifically waiting for a 18f move only and fully focused with you can probably block if it makes sense for that move to come out at that time, it's not a full reaction it's read/react

Reaction > Anticipation > Read > Guess

In practice I can react to Mileenas Ex roll because I have set as the only option, so what's happening in reaction to the animation I'm waiting for (anticipation) I can't tell what that animation is but since my brain knows it's only Ex Roll that could happen I block it.
When if it was a true reaction my brain would able to tell what that animation is

But in a real game it won't happen because there is too many variables to keep in mind to look out for that 1 specific move

So when people use that blink test as to justify reaction timing just know that's you reacting to a change of movement rather than a complete animation.

So main point to my post is people confusing anticipation with Reaction

So it's like you are making a read to commit to wait and attempt to react to that singular instance

Reaction - the ability to play your game how it is attack, defend etc and still react as in being able to see that instance and register its that instance then block or counter it without necessarily waiting for it
An example of a reaction is Scorpions F4.

Anticipation - looking for that one specific instance (which forces you to not press buttons in most cases and can get you hit by other things while waiting)
An example of anticipation would be looking for a throw to tech

Read - whether it's a soft or hard to commit to something on the foundation of knowing how your opponent plays (tendecys, Patterns, flowchart) and on what logically makes sense at that time.
An example of a read is neutral ducking the throw

Guess - just throwing it out there or blocking a 50/50 with little to no justification or using data of thought behind it
An example of a guess is blocking Sonyas 50/50
I couldn't have said it any better
 

Untiered

Canary
A reaction is trip guarding with ball roll as you see your opponent falling in the air.
A read is predicting your opponent is going to jump after his/hers string or yours, then immediatly doing a njp.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
I was right on my thoughts. This is from Guilty Gear. The male one is Sol Badguy. Tried arcade box on this Guilty Gear Xrd Revelation at my mate's house. Who's this chick there?

BTW gotta DL those programs (this one and Joy2stick) to try my reaction. Does Motionjoy work?
you can do it without motion joy and use keyboard, some are just wanting to use there hitbox and all. just use keyboard. i use spacebar, anykey will work.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
+MadeOfMetal Yellow text is criminal dude, my poor eyes
are you using the light background/theme? i have the normal default black dark theme. I suggest that. I along with like 5 other members use bright font. I have problems seeing the grey so thats why do what i do. Sorry if it hurts your eyes, really am, but maybe you can try the dark theme? or turn your brightness down?
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
I was right on my thoughts. This is from Guilty Gear. The male one is Sol Badguy. Tried arcade box on this Guilty Gear Xrd Revelation at my mate's house. Who's this chick there?

BTW gotta DL those programs (this one and Joy2stick) to try my reaction. Does Motionjoy work?
And yeah, we have had this thread like 20 something times, since ive been on here since 2011 or 2013. and its like even though its available in threads and deep in the forum others forget about it and neglect the Search tool.

But yeah, its kindof a cool tool, if i knew how to make it i would make one for MKXL like Johnny or alien or Ermac or Sonya just the B1. shit like that, that way we can use it with characters we are familiar with instead. it would be cool, but its awesome that guy made it on dustloops for all fighters really.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
Does any1 know how to delete their account?
should be in account settings and if its not, ask Moderator, @Alien Substance @Tim Static and they can Delete it for you @PND_Ketchup

not exactly sure how it works on TYM but i assum its like MKU i was LEad moderator on there, so it was in account, but here it seems they have limitations for who can do what, which is a good thing, because here on TYM there is alot of Groups and clicks that could abuse power and certain Originals only have certain Tools/Power.

I left MKU and Left as mod because many reasons, but one of the biggest ones is when the Mod team allows Teams to become entry mods and that is always a bad thing. Not talking about Mustard or Ketchup they are Responsable and great guys. but on MKU there was 88's and they where angry at other top players which made for some interesting Hatful outcomes and many of them shutting down threads out of spite, no one can believe that when i say MKU was 1000X's more salty than TYM is, and TYM really is only salty from like 35 members a small percentage like 3% of TYM. and its cuz they are All friends and like eachother and have fun being dicks. Otherwise i love TYM and have alot of fun here, i learn tech get to contribute to MK community and l;earn awesome combos, Tech and character Gameplans. great place. whats funny is i here about Edboon tweets on TYM before i see it on there, everything MK news is on here before anywhere else.

Damn i rant alot anyways thats how you solve your problem man. Good Luck.
 
Last edited:

Solomon Gorondy

Should Goro be top 5?
Your example isn't a pure reaction though you're assuming someone is already blocking. And there's less information to process in that test than there is in a fighting game. You already know 100% what the correct response is to the stimulus. In a fighting game you're looking for multiple things at once(unless you're making a read) so a better test would be one with multiple lights each with a corresponding button on the right and a directional input on the left. I'd be willing to bet that the top reaction times double.
In my example you already know 100% what the correct response is to the stimulus. You are already in block-stun waiting for one signal (the point at which you know it's a low attack) from there you have only one response (press down). If you do not get signaled, you do not press down. This is a near identical situation to the green light test. It is an anticipated reaction where you either press the button or don't depending on what you observe. It is situational and does not apply to every reaction that can be made in a fighting game. It applies specifically to blocked strings that are negative on block and cancel into either a low or overhead attack while having a noticeable tell at least 8 frames before either of the moves hit.

This is a fact; some people have been proven able to react at 101-116ms to an anticipated signal.
 
In my example you already know 100% what the correct response is to the stimulus. You are already in block-stun waiting for one signal (the point at which you know it's a low attack) from there you have only one response (press down). If you do not get signaled, you do not press down. This is a near identical situation to the green light test. It is an anticipated reaction where you either press the button or don't depending on what you observe. It is situational and does not apply to every reaction that can be made in a fighting game. It applies specifically to blocked strings that are negative on block and cancel into either a low or overhead attack while having a noticeable tell at least 8 frames before either of the moves hit.

This is a fact; some people have been proven able to react at 101-116ms to an anticipated signal.
yeah but you're also looking for staggers, throws, and cancels in block stun.

No one is blocking rekka mixups on reaction. If you think I'm wrong then test it yourself, but I've got 10000 games from 20 different fighting games in 1000 top 8s, and I've never seen any player consistently react to a move that's got 7 or 8 frames of visible animation.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
able to react at 101-116ms to an anticipated signal.
that is 6 frames. allthough its possible to react to that in other aspects or situations, a fighting game its not possible for the Brain to Register what the eyes are seeing For Example: An overhead move compared to Throw, Low high Mid Backdash in otherwords several options, and React to said Overhead and then Block it according ly in only 6-9 frames let alone be able to block 15 frame moves on pure reaction. you can see that in the Millia blocker i posted above.

The best time recorded was done by a Man that played it for a year straight, Gaining Musle Memory and Fimiliarity to the Program and this does lower respose time(he got 18 frame reaction), but if Sonic can only truly React to 19-20 Frame moves i seriously doubt anyone can on Pure reaction block an Overhead/Low that is below 19 frames.


Thats why the Millia Blocker Version 3.0 is a perfect example, it makes the player Press the button only after it starts, they can't wait for it and just press right before it comes out and get a 7 frame time. they have to worry about failing it and pressing it on Random Lows Highs and other moves. and since its completely Random it Simulates a Real Match Situation.


  • In Practice you can Know whats coming because Record Repeats its self.
  • When your playing your Friend you know whats coming because of Unconscious Tendencies you may or may not be aware of. when you play a person alot your brain picks up tendencies and you will READ what your opponent is gonna do and Block in advance.
Take the Millia Blocker Ver 3.0 test and it covers all these examples. unless you can get 7 frames on all 5 times i will never believe a brain works that fast that is Human.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.teyah.net/milliablocker.html<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Press Download (it just opens it up and does not download anything at least it did not for me on Windows 10) after looking at the two attacks you need to press any key to block, you are set to Crouch Block Low attacks and mids, so the only one you need to press a button is on the Overheads they look like this:

this one is 20 Frames Startup (Overhead #1)


and this one is 21 frames startup. (Overhead #2)

As long as you block and press button only on those moves you will not fail. and it Calculates your Response in Frames not MS.
I use Space Bar but you can use whatever you like.

@Tanno you should try it, you do not need joy2 play, just press download and it should automatically work with keyboard as default, the Joy program is foir the option to hook up Fight stick pads and Hitbox options.
 
Last edited:

Solomon Gorondy

Should Goro be top 5?
yeah but you're also looking for staggers, throws, and cancels in block stun.
Every hit of the string is -20 so stagger pressure is irrelevent. there is no throw that the string can be canceled into, only mid overhead or low attacks. I never said this applies to every situation nor did I say that any move with 7 frames of animation can be blocked on reaction. This seems to be communication breakdown; you don't seem to understand the point I am making and are arguing against points I never made.
 
Every hit of the string is -20 so stagger pressure is irrelevent. there is no throw that the string can be canceled into, only mid overhead or low attacks. I never said this applies to every situation nor did I say that any move with 7 frames of animation can be blocked on reaction. This seems to be communication breakdown; you don't seem to understand the point I am making and are arguing against points I never made.
theres no communication breakdown. You're saying it's possible for some humans to block a 7 frame mixup on reaction in ideal circumstances. I'm saying that all the available data in fighting games suggests otherwise. Even adding frames for input delay/monitor lag no human in the situation you're presenting would be able to accurately and consistently block aliens rekka mixups, and those are 17/18 frames.