Discussion Reactions vs Reads, what is the difference

[Eddy Wang]

"I can react to Skarlet 18f overhead because she "telegraphs", KL 19f overhead just happens".
"I have 7f reactions".
"Block low, react to the overhead.". (vs Hellfire F2).
"The fastest reaction registered on a fighting game is 12 frames."

Some of you might have read or heard these phrases very often, and ask yourself, why aren't these super human guys winning everything?

The fastest human reaction documented says that the fastest reaction time is 215ms, so if a game has 60 frames per second, meaning: 15f would be around 250ms more or less.

"Through some simple math, they were able to discern that the average human reaction time of about 265 milliseconds equates to roughly 16 frames in a 60fps game." Via Shoryuken.

While i think that reacting to a 12f or 7f move which requires a different shift on your current stance to block is humanly impossible, its not impossible to block them if you make yourself ready for it, but while making yourself ready for it, it shift your entire brain focus on one thing only and you will get blind in other areas making it more so possible for the opponent to do things like conditioning the opponent with baits and so on.

So what are reads and what are reactions? i would like to know your input into this, do you really believe any of these statements are that real?
Let me tell you one thing, i think all of the above statements are pure bullshit.

If one player says he has 7f or 12f reactions, Sonya, Cassie and Johnny Cage would never be a problem same as any 50-50 hard coded in this game.

@False God Confirmed @Braindead @HomeLee1121 @Red Raptor @Pig Of The Hut @16 Bit @General M2Dave @YOMI REO @STB Shujinkydink @Immortal @DDutchguy @ROG Moonspell @Slips

 

[Tanno]

Those are entirely different from each other. IMO, the reads are for the math guys, who know the frame data. The read is only theory-wise. The reaction is different, and it's why we need it to react against other characters. The reaction is the action-wise stuff and most of the physics guys can do. I depend myself only in reaction, because I'm not a math guy to depend much in frame data. To react is to notice the slightest chance to punish your opponent and to act accordingly.

 

[kabelfritz]

a reaction to "something" can be really quick, like a reflex. if you have to identify what that something is before reacting, like low or overhead, its more than just a reflex. a read is something completely different, it happens on anticipation. and then there is the mix of both where you expect an Overhead and react as soon as something comes out, which might be the overhead or not. that is quicker than a reaction but isnt really one, but more an more an "educated reflex". try this:

http://www.teyah.net/MilliaBlocker_v0.3.SWF

my average reaction time is about 26/27 Frames. this test will teach you not to confuse a reaction with a reflex.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

Simple. Reads are generally done preemptively.

Reactions are done... well on reaction.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Simple. Reads are generally done preemptively.

Reactions are done... well on reaction.

So do you believe a human being can have 7 frames reactions?
like intentionally block sonya 50-50s with B1 and B3 on reaction, can you "see" her leg coming?

 

[Daemantalo]

Reactions are like a reflex. For example, as soon as you see Cutthroat Kano lift his leg for B3, if you had these GODLIKE reaction times (I sure as hell do not) you could immediately switch from blocking high and block low. B3 is 13 frames, but the visual indicator of him lifting his leg up before he delivers the strike MIGHT help. Same thing with his B1. As soon as you see his hand go to his back to reach for the knife, you go from blocking low to blocking high.

Reading is much different.

A read is picking up on a pattern. For example, if I see after every blocked B312 string Cutthroat Kano does when he has you in the corner, and he immediately goes for a D4 to check you, then I could theoretically predict what he's going to do. D4 is a 7 frame move, mind you. So, while he tries a D4, I could go for a jump in attack and start my pressure.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

So do you believe a human being can have 7 frames reactions?
like intentionally block sonya 50-50s with B1 and B3 on reaction, can you "see" her leg coming?

No. If I read she's gonna do the overhead, I'll block overhead regardless of reactions.

If people are saying they can react to Sonya 50/50 they're lying lol

 

[M.D.]

As long as nobody comes here to sustain Sub's b2 is reactable (proving that he is the most useless clueless scrublord incompetent human being ever to touch a fighting game in this existence), this thread is ok.

 

[Daemantalo]

No. If I read she's gonna do the overhead, I'll block overhead regardless of reactions.

If people are saying they can react to Sonya 50/50 they're lying lol

I agree you can't react to B3 or B1, but I'm pretty sure you can react to cartwheel and her low profiling kick. It's the grab I have trouble with reacting to when it comes to military stance.

 

[neveradestroyer]

As long as nobody comes here to sustain Sub's b2 is reactable (proving that he is the most useless clueless scrublord incompetent human being ever to touch a fighting game in this existence), this thread is ok.

God damn!, Look at SonicFox using the broken GrandMaster to take EVO again, Ops... I forgot. He uses almost any character but Sub Zero to get it's victories.
Look! a Sub Zero player in a top 8. Where?. Just kidding!. It's a real top tier player instead.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

In my case I can be more successful if I focus/lock on the model of my opponent if I know the MU/Frame.

I think there is limitation to human reaction though. There are move that can be reacted to, and there are moves that require anticipation/good guessing because they are simply too fast. If You dont have good reactions then anticipation by it self wont do much.

Blocking 50/50 or counter poke, AA and so on,.will require both. Reactions and reeds.

 

[dennycascade]

God damn!, Look at SonicFox using the broken GrandMaster to take EVO again, Ops... I forgot. He uses almost any character but Sub Zero to get it's victories.
Look! a Sub Zero player in a top 8. Where?. Just kidding!. It's a real top tier player instead.

Boy

 

[oaoo94]

How fast is Errons F1. Because I swear I always react to that mix up. I almost never get hit by that. Blocked like 86% of the time.

 

[M.D.]

God damn!, Look at SonicFox using the broken GrandMaster to take EVO again, Ops... I forgot. He uses exactly those 5 characters that body Sub Zero and are coincidentaly the top 5 of this game to get it's victories, because with the rest of the cast any braindead gorilla will destroy him with GM.
Look! a Sub Zero player in a top 8. Where?. Just kidding!. It's a real top tier player instead. But GM gets top8 a lot more than A-list, at least.

Fixed some of that for ya.

 

[IrishMantis]

The key word is anticipation for most cases when you specifically waiting for a 18f move only and fully focused with you can probably block if it makes sense for that move to come out at that time, it's not a full reaction it's read/react

Reaction > Anticipation > Read > Guess

In practice I can react to Mileenas Ex roll because I have set as the only option, so what's happening in reaction to the animation I'm waiting for (anticipation) I can't tell what that animation is but since my brain knows it's only Ex Roll that could happen I block it.
When if it was a true reaction my brain would able to tell what that animation is

But in a real game it won't happen because there is too many variables to keep in mind to look out for that 1 specific move

So when people use that blink test as to justify reaction timing just know that's you reacting to a change of movement rather than a complete animation.

So main point to my post is people confusing anticipation with Reaction

So it's like you are making a read to commit to wait and attempt to react to that singular instance

Reaction - the ability to play your game how it is attack, defend etc and still react as in being able to see that instance and register its that instance then block or counter it without necessarily waiting for it
An example of a reaction is Scorpions F4.

Anticipation - looking for that one specific instance (which forces you to not press buttons in most cases and can get you hit by other things while waiting)
An example of anticipation would be looking for a throw to tech

Read - whether it's a soft or hard to commit to something on the foundation of knowing how your opponent plays (tendecys, Patterns, flowchart) and on what logically makes sense at that time.
An example of a read is neutral ducking the throw

Guess - just throwing it out there or blocking a 50/50 with little to no justification or using data of thought behind it
An example of a guess is blocking Sonyas 50/50

 

[ShadyHeart]

A read is doing something because you think the opponent is going to do a certain thing. A reaction is doing something because you seen somebody do something. Anybody who says otherwise doesn't know what the definition of these words are.

Are there seriously people dumb enough to say otherwise?

 

[TamedLizard]

I don't know what's wrong with y'all. I can react to Sonya 50/50's the same 10/10 every time.

Spoiler

 

[Tanno]

God damn!, Look at SonicFox using the broken GrandMaster to take EVO again, Ops... I forgot. He uses almost any character but Sub Zero to get it's victories.
Look! a Sub Zero player in a top 8. Where?. Just kidding!. It's a real top tier player instead.

Sonicfox played Unbreakable Sub Zero in EVO against Tom Brady. As far as I know, he used to play GMSZ, but dropped him for Erron Black. Madzin used to play CSZ, but he dropped him and plays since then GMSZ.

Madzin reached Top 8 at ESL.

 

[neveradestroyer]

Sonicfox played Unbreakable Sub Zero in EVO against Tom Brady. As far as I know, he used to play GMSZ, but dropped him for Erron Black. Madzin used to play CSZ, but he dropped him and plays since then GMSZ.

Madzin reached Top 8 at ESL.

SonicFox used Unbreakable and by surprise of everyone you'll not believe it. Tututututu! He LOOOOST. so, it was a troll pick from him.

Madzin is the only Sub Zero to reach that far. He is a monster with the reads.

Also look!, not so rare footage of Tom Brady loosing again against a normal character "Tremor"

Well, props to Yuzu_RZA for beating a broken character easily.

 

[DDutchguy]

Lots of people have commented already and explained reads and reactions, but I'll comment anyway.

Reads and reactions are pretty much polar opposites. A read has you anticipating a move in your mind, you guess what they're going to do. A reaction is you seeing a move happening on the screen, with your brain registering it, followed by you blocking accordingly. The latter is without making any prediction at all, purely your eyes and brain working together.

Let's also not forget that there's a bit of time between you seeing a move happen in front of you and you clicking the right buttons to block. So say, you're an Elder God and you can react to an 18-frame move without trouble, there's still a couple of frames where you have to make the right press on the controller. Your effective reaction may be like 22 frames in that situation.

 

[Tanno]

Lots of people have commented already and explained reads and reactions, but I'll comment anyway.

Reads and reactions are pretty much polar opposites. A read has you anticipating a move in your mind, you guess what they're going to do. A reaction is you seeing a move happening on the screen, with your brain registering it, followed by you blocking accordingly. The latter is without making any prediction at all, purely your eyes and brain working together.

Let's also not forget that there's a bit of time between you seeing a move happen in front of you and you clicking the right buttons to block. So say, you're an Elder God and you can react to an 18-frame move without trouble, there's still a couple of frames where you have to make the right press on the controller. Your effective reaction may be like 22 frames in that situation.

This is what I am in MKX. The read is so hard to happen, because you need to know all their moves, and to know them you need to get used to their MUs. Only then you may know what to do with their attacks. :/

 

[Eddy Wang]

i too think ppl confuse reactions with anticipations too often.

 

[XxDark_]

The key word is anticipation for most cases when you specifically waiting for a 18f move only and fully focused with you can probably block if it makes sense for that move to come out at that time, it's not a full reaction it's read/react

Reaction > Anticipation > Read > Guess

In practice I can react to Mileenas Ex roll because I have set as the only option, so what's happening in reaction to the animation I'm waiting for (anticipation) I can't tell what that animation is but since my brain knows it's only Ex Roll that could happen I block it.
When if it was a true reaction my brain would able to tell what that animation is

But in a real game it won't happen because there is too many variables to keep in mind to look out for that 1 specific move

So when people use that blink test as to justify reaction timing just know that's you reacting to a change of movement rather than a complete animation.

So main point to my post is people confusing anticipation with Reaction

So it's like you are making a read to commit to wait and attempt to react to that singular instance

Reaction - the ability to play your game how it is attack, defend etc and still react as in being able to see that instance and register its that instance then block or counter it without necessarily waiting for it
An example of a reaction is Scorpions F4.

Anticipation - looking for that one specific instance (which forces you to not press buttons in most cases and can get you hit by other things while waiting)
An example of anticipation would be looking for a throw to tech

Read - whether it's a soft or hard to commit to something on the foundation of knowing how your opponent plays (tendecys, Patterns, flowchart) and on what logically makes sense at that time.
An example of a read is neutral ducking the throw

Guess - just throwing it out there or blocking a 50/50 with little to no justification or using data of thought behind it
An example of a guess is blocking Sonyas 50/50

Agreed. this is spot on

 

[xenogorgeous]

reaction = come after an action, so, its comes after
reading = to guess, to anticipate; more or less based in experience, and sometimes, baiting

 

[Grape Juice City]

Reaction is a response to stimuli.

A read is preemptive. Bypassing the need to process and respond to stimuli as you would if it were a reaction.

@IrishMantis was on point with his examples; Throw Tech vs Neutral Ducking is the best way to differentiate between a read and a reaction. It's literally impossible to neutral duck a throw on reaction, since you'd already be stuck in the animation once you registered what was happening on screen. That said, all neutral ducks are reads, but not all throw techs are reaction.