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Match-up Discussion Raven Matchup Discussion

Z

ZalliX

Noob
Zoidberg747 said:
That will make it more manageable. Thanks.
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I find neutral jumping seems to blow up flash a lot too. If you can ever land a b23, zone out with pillars, and grabs. Try to find a moment when you can mb b3 or f1. Flashes love to crouch versus raven, so use good variety of grabs and overheads to open him up. However, you can abuse air too much because he does have decent AA.
 
Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
ZalliX said:
I find neutral jumping seems to blow up flash a lot too. If you can ever land a b23, zone out with pillars, and grabs. Try to find a moment when you can mb b3 or f1. Flashes love to crouch versus raven, so use good variety of grabs and overheads to open him up. However, you can abuse air too much because he does have decent AA.
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A lot of this doesnt work against a good flash. He has a great d2 that will stuff most jump ins. He laughs at most zoning with his Lightning charge. MB B3 rarely works because of his fast specials. Same with F3. Didnt think of grabs though, will try.
 
Z

ZalliX

Noob
Zoidberg747 said:
A lot of this doesnt work against a good flash. He has a great d2 that will stuff most jump ins. He laughs at most zoning with his Lightning charge. MB B3 rarely works because of his fast specials. Same with F3. Didnt think of grabs though, will try.
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The thing is to get into their heads, shadow raven shadow raven, wait a second, soul crush. They're gonna crouch a lot just to avoid shadow ravens, or pillars. You really want to get into their heads with DS, like when you activate DS form for the first time you want to use it as a zoning tool, get as much zoning damage as you can until they start respecting, and as soon as they start respecting, start abusing you can act like you're about to jump in, then teleport behind, to bait out the d2 and they're free to j2, However a lot try to charge to catch your jump and if you teleport behind them you can land a safely db2 on them in DS. or just wall of death them with pillar spam. Its oh so nasty.

When they start respecting its best to be abusive as possible, after they start crouching I like to jump back activate DS, land and begin controlling his movment with pillars, It either hits him and you can get a decent combo or he blocks which pushes back. and jump randomly, for seemingly no reason because Flash cant do anything at full screen, land poke with a db2. Jump some more. Sometimes they will charge right into your feet and be free to a j2. You want to make them so scared to move that a ground teleport grab will open them up, or a air teleport j1 or j2.

Obviously you don't want to get put into a corner, because Flash will just dump on you. You wont be able to wake up if the flash is doing it right. Best bet is to push block and shadow raven right after, and get him up off you, basically end most combos with b23.
 
Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
ZalliX said:
The thing is to get into their heads, shadow raven shadow raven, wait a second, soul crush. They're gonna crouch a lot just to avoid shadow ravens, or pillars. You really want to get into their heads with DS, like when you activate DS form for the first time you want to use it as a zoning tool, get as much zoning damage as you can until they start respecting, and as soon as they start respecting, start abusing you can act like you're about to jump in, then teleport behind, to bait out the d2 and they're free to j2, However a lot try to charge to catch your jump and if you teleport behind them you can land a safely db2 on them in DS. or just wall of death them with pillar spam. Its oh so nasty.

When they start respecting its best to be abusive as possible, after they start crouching I like to jump back activate DS, land and begin controlling his movment with pillars, It either hits him and you can get a decent combo or he blocks which pushes back. and jump randomly, for seemingly no reason because Flash cant do anything at full screen, land poke with a db2. Jump some more. Sometimes they will charge right into your feet and be free to a j2. You want to make them so scared to move that a ground teleport grab will open them up, or a air teleport j1 or j2.

Obviously you don't want to get put into a corner, because Flash will just dump on you. You wont be able to wake up if the flash is doing it right. Best bet is to push block and shadow raven right after, and get him up off you, basically end most combos with b23.
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Again though, soul crush just allows them a free dash or worse a full combo. Pillar spam does not work because they can just dash forward or lightning charge through it(I found if they are fullscreen the normal pillar will catch them sometimes). Using DS naked is suicide even in the air. Ill grant you the air teleport thing but his d2 is so fast that he can recover in order to block the followup. They can also punish singularity for a full combo unless you do it mid screen, otherwise it gives you a free dash.

You talk about respecting her options but I dont see how he has to respect her options.
 
Z

ZalliX

Noob
Zoidberg747 said:
Again though, soul crush just allows them a free dash or worse a full combo. Pillar spam does not work because they can just dash forward or lightning charge through it(I found if they are fullscreen the normal pillar will catch them sometimes). Using DS naked is suicide even in the air. Ill grant you the air teleport thing but his d2 is so fast that he can recover in order to block the followup. They can also punish singularity for a full combo unless you do it mid screen, otherwise it gives you a free dash.

You talk about respecting her options but I dont see how he has to respect her options.
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You should be able to hit Flash's lighting charge or dash with pillars, If you're hitting him with far Pillar, and he blocks it, the next pillar needs to be the normal and it will hit his dash or his lighting charge. This will learn him quick, and its necessary to winning the match up. If you Soul crush to close to Flash he will blow you up, but he can only do that at a certain distance, you must maintain your space. Flashes get caught a lot by b23, because they get over zealous.

If they're scared to move, you can definitely get DS in for free. But hes not completely defenseless, you need to get in their head so they can't option select you very easily.
 
Blind_Ducky

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
ZalliX said:
You should be able to hit Flash's lighting charge or dash with pillars, If you're hitting him with far Pillar, and he blocks it, the next pillar needs to be the normal and it will hit his dash or his lighting charge. This will learn him quick, and its necessary to winning the match up. If you Soul crush to close to Flash he will blow you up, but he can only do that at a certain distance, you must maintain your space. Flashes get caught a lot by b23, because they get over zealous.

If they're scared to move, you can definitely get DS in for free. But hes not completely defenseless, you need to get in their head so they can't option select you very easily.
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Lightning charge is 11 frames. After a blocked pillar this beats all of Ravens options.
 
Hiltzy85

Hiltzy85

I'm THAT fast
Zoidberg747 MB charge is +3 on block, if you block it standing. If you block the first hit and then crouch, you can punish while flash is in the air, and if you are crouching the whole time, same deal, the second hit whiffs and is unsafe.

There is really no reason to try and walk backwards against flash because his dash is so fast (Flash goes from 100% full screen to being in range for f21 in two dashes), and he can also run you down with Running Man Stance (and hit you with the sliding low kick, if you're still just walking backwards). As you saw from our matches, walking backwards also leaves you vulnerable to MB lightning charge, which is basically a "get in for free, 4% chip damage and be at +3" move against standing people.

lightning kick is -5 on block, so you basically get a free d1 that Flash has to block, or he has to commit to back dash, which you can punish with grab or squeeze or whatever you want to do. Normal lightning charge is like -21, so you can combo that on block. B2 is +4 on block, b22 is +3 on block, d1 and d1d2 are both +1 and d2 is like +4.

If you get a life lead against Flash, you really need to just be very patient and try to zone as best you can. I feel like if Flash gets a life lead, there isn't much you're going to be able to do unless the Flash player makes some pretty serious mistakes. Flash obviously whoops Raven's ass up close, too, so you have to be careful. If you can get Flash full screen away, it's pretty tough for him to get in, because your shadow ravens recover so fast. Basically I have to walk/duck to avoid the full screen grabs and ravens, and you get to build a lot of meter while doing this.

The problem with MB b3 or F3 against Flash is that if he sees them or reads it, he can blow them up with MB lightning charge (it hits twice) into 31%, or speed dodge them and have you waste your bar. You really need to be careful with meter against Flash, I think, because beating him in clashes is generally pretty bad for him. You get health back (or do extra damage), and he is back to being full screen.
 
Circus

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
ZalliX said:
Pillars are 0 on block, if he tries to charge right after you could squeeze him.
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Crush is 13frame startup. So it'd be distance dependent after a blocked pillar from Flash if he goes directly into the charge.

That and squeezing in general is very dangerous against Flash because 1 blocked squeeze and he could MB Charge into a full combo from nearly anywhere on the screen.
 
Z

ZalliX

Noob
Circus said:
Crush is 13frame startup. So it'd be distance dependent after a blocked pillar from Flash if he goes directly into the charge.

That and squeezing in general is very dangerous against Flash because 1 blocked squeeze and he could MB Charge into a full combo from nearly anywhere on the screen.
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He can only do that if he is about mid screen, if normal pillar is hitting him you're in the danger zone, any farther out and you're fine.
 
Blind_Ducky

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Zoidberg747 said:
Blind_Man

Any tips for Bane and Lex MUs?
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F2 is good for breaking banes armor when he's trying to that double punch stuff. Mb b3 charges (except lvl 3 venom) or jump them or if you're in demon stance teleport & pull. Don't get cornered lol. Pushblock is awesome. If you are far enough away and you hit bane with a shadow raven while hd charging the armor will absorb it and you'll recover in time to soul crush him. Mb b3/f3 wake up double punches. Venom uppercut it doesn't work on. If Bane gets momentum he can be a problem and if you don't have meter he's a huge problem.

Learn the timing for reflecting the little probes. If he thinks you'll reflect a probe he can do that unblockable thing and you'll get hit if you reflect. Punish corps charge with 11lift. His armor is annoying so try to get rid of it as soon as possible. There are certain mine set ups where lex expects you to push block and you'll get hit by the mine so watch for those and whatever other set ups lex has with those. If lex does mb unblockable air strike thing and loops it I don't think there's a way to get out so have fun with that. Lex's j3 is fucking insane so you'll probably lose all air to airs and won't be able to AA him.

There's probably more to these mus but that's just some stuff and if you have any questions keep asking pls.
 
Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Blind_Man said:
F2 is good for breaking banes armor when he's trying to that double punch stuff. Mb b3 charges (except lvl 3 venom) or jump them or if you're in demon stance teleport & pull. Don't get cornered lol. Pushblock is awesome. If you are far enough away and you hit bane with a shadow raven while hd charging the armor will absorb it and you'll recover in time to soul crush him. Mb b3/f3 wake up double punches. Venom uppercut it doesn't work on. If Bane gets momentum he can be a problem and if you don't have meter he's a huge problem.

Learn the timing for reflecting the little probes. If he thinks you'll reflect a probe he can do that unblockable thing and you'll get hit if you reflect. Punish corps charge with 11lift. His armor is annoying so try to get rid of it as soon as possible. There are certain mine set ups where lex expects you to push block and you'll get hit by the mine so watch for those and whatever other set ups lex has with those. If lex does mb unblockable air strike thing and loops it I don't think there's a way to get out so have fun with that. Lex's j3 is fucking insane so you'll probably lose all air to airs and won't be able to AA him.

There's probably more to these mus but that's just some stuff and if you have any questions keep asking pls.
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Good tips.

And yeah, I am trying to get a basis for these MUs so I can do alright in my regional next week.
 
Blind_Ducky

Blind_Ducky

Princess of the Sisterhood
Zoidberg747 said:
Good tips.

And yeah, I am trying to get a basis for these MUs so I can do alright in my regional next week.
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Go into practice mode and fuck about with characters and try to get mu exp against as much of the cast as possible and if you have any more questions please ask. Also what day is the regional & wil it be streamed?
 
Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
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