Raiden Match-Ups Thread

[Raidenwins]

Let's discuss Raiden's match-ups against individual characters here. In other words, this is a place to share, or ask for, tips and tricks for fighting against any and all characters.

I'll start first.

Scorpion

So I played online for a couple of hours last night and it was 80% Scorpion players. I can see why. He has a number of safe moves and easy combos for new players to win matches with in the early stages of the game, which has been the case with pretty much all Mortal Kombat games since at least MK: Deadly Alliance or so. Anyway, I have no particularly good tips, but I have several questions:

How can we punish blocked spear? Much to my frustration, Electric Fly can't do it, even though it could in MKX.

How do we block his BnB combos? It seems he has good Low and Overhead combos that are easy to mix up. I kept getting caught in them all night.

How do we punish the move where he spins his spear half a dozen or so times? I don't think Electric Fly can do it. Maybe F4 ~ Storm Cell (AMP) or F4 ~ Electric Fly?

What is the best way to punish blocked Teleport Punch and Teleport Punch (AMP)? So far I've been using very basic stuff like a throw or 1, 2, 1.

 

[Cosmic Forge]

My first tip is to go into practice mode and turn on frame data for both you and opponent. Practice being hit and blocking as well as Flawless Blocking (FLB) and looking at the data.

The best way to find out where characters are weak to FLB is to set up a mirror match of the character in question in practice mode, and have the CPU set to FLB everything and perform strings against them. It will teach you much where the holes are in strings.

Now for specific moves.

The Spear
Obviously, this move is less punishable the further away you are. It goes from like -30+ up close to -20 or so max range. Electric Fly at its fastest is 21 frames. If you perform it as a Reversal (IE executing the command on the first possible frame) the most you can hope for is a mid screen punish. Ironically, if you're that close to them when you block it, you can punish with f+4 instead.

Teleport
There's a few ways to deal with this. First of all, it's a pretty low hitting mid. Meaning if you think it's coming, you can jump ahead of time and just kick him as he flies under you. Also, the AMP'd version has less recovery than the normal one. Amp is -14, normal is -20. What this means is you have enough time to wait and see if the amp'd version comes out and can still punish it with a jab string (1,2,1 or 1,2~stormcell). You can even FLB the 2nd hit of the amp'd version and go that route.

The Overhead mixup
F+4,2,3 - Low, Overhead, Mid. You can actually FLB the 2nd hit (the overhead) and have enough time to perform the u+2 FLB launcher before the 3rd hit comes out. Otherwise you can jab punish (1,2...) the last hit if your timing is on point.
F+3,2 - Mid, Overhead, Low. You can FLB the 2nd hit again and U+2 the 3rd hit. Or you can block the string since it's -25 and go for big punish. Even B+2.
You'll notice a pattern here. Block low first hit (blocks mids and lows), stand block 2nd hit (overhead), block low again last hit (low or mid). Crouch - Stand - Crouch

The Spear spin (d,f+4)
The Last hit is -20, meaning you have enough time to mash out f+4 to punish. If your inputs are clean enough you can f+4~stormcell.
Same goes for the amp'd version.
EDIT -- At max range, the last hit on block is only -17 or so and pushes Raiden out of range of any punishers that are that fast. All you have at that point is your "turn".

Demon dash -17: Punish with b+1,2 or 3,2

Demon breath -21: Punish with - f+4

 

[Mandolore1123]

Can someone tell me how to deal with Sub Zero playing MKX in MK11? Just got mixed to death because I guessed wrong every single time

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Can someone tell me how to deal with Sub Zero playing MKX in MK11? Just got mixed to death because I guessed wrong every single time

Guess right and punish, that’s it. Sub is a broken character in this footsie focused game. I think Raiden is helpless against him if you guess wrong.

 

[kabelfritz]

Can someone tell me how to deal with Sub Zero playing MKX in MK11? Just got mixed to death because I guessed wrong every single time

even though its particularly hard against sub-zero, because he controls the far range AND the close range while he and raiden go pretty even at mid-screen distance: play the spacing game! dont get caught in a mentality where you think you have react to his up-close nonsense, and in case you have to: just learn the punishes and make him pay in case you guess right. the overhead string is heaviliy punishable, just as slide and up-close ice ball (all around -15 and more i think. the low starting string is -5 and therefore his main go-to option. his only + is f4(?), where he does the big boot rush, dont poke after that.

 

[Mandolore1123]

What about Jax? Every time I try to poke after his strings he just d12s me, am I just not fast enough? Are any of his options unsafe?

 

[kabelfritz]

id like to know one thing about jax too, does anyone happen to know if theres a gap in his 2 kicks into overhead string?

 

[SLy]

Jax gotta be labbed. Theres alot he can get away with if you dont look up the frame data.

 

[kabelfritz]

no matter how hard i try, everything with raijin feels like an uphill battle. except skarlet, that one feels hopeless. havent labbed her though, i hear she has many gaps.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Am I supposed to be able to fuzzy all of Kabal’s Low hook mixups?

 

[kabelfritz]

the more i play the more i lean to "dont be in it" as defense against the 50/50 grinder

 

[Mandolore1123]

the more i play the more i lean to "dont be in it" as defense against the 50/50 grinder

But that scorpion teleport cancel tho

 

[kabelfritz]

But that scorpion teleport cancel tho

yeah its terrible. guess after which matchup i came to my conclusion - i teched like at least 50% of the guys throws and still got mixed to death. a little help against scorpion is that you can flawless block everything that comes after f3 (his main footsie kick) and f4 (low starting kick). and if you FB the low sword, he actually cant continue the string (but who does that?).

about kabal, i just know he has no gaps in his strings, no clue if you can fuzzy.

 

[AK Harold]

You can fuzzy most of kabals "mix". I think the exception is b1. The f224 one I believe has different frames.

 

[Mandolore1123]

You can fuzzy most of kabals "mix". I think the exception is b1. The f224 one I believe has different frames.

The fuzzy is low then overhead right?
Also why do all the heavy rushdown character get good projectiles?

 

[kabelfritz]

that puzzles me too. keepaway characters like jade, raiden, cetrion all have theses slow startup projectiles, while those with the best rushdown like sonya, geras, liu kang or johnny cage get super-spammable projctiles. especially sonya and geras, wtf?

 

[Raidenwins]

How do you all fight Geras? His D+1 is stuffing all my attempts at canceling D1 or D3 into Storm Cell, which works on everybody else. Also, is his ground special (the one where the opponent sinks into the ground) punishable on block?

 

[Swoops]

Geras is tough. I believe quicksand (DB1) is -19, so unless he does it point blank to close range you can't punish it. I don't think F4 will punish it. You can always use blocked quicksand as an opportunity to BF1 amp and check him. Doing anything else in the zoning war with him is very risky because you can eat 31% from the counter hit KB. You can attempt to teleport for a punish, but again you risk eating 31% or more if you mess up. Lightning Strike is punished by quicksand on block.

His 6 frame D1 is also stupid and shuts down a lot of potential staggers and frame traps, so you'll have to pressure just outside its range in a lot of cases. He's also pretty damn safe, and combine that with the 6f D1 means he can get away with a lot if you miss your punishes.

The only downside I see to Geras is he has somewhat stubby normals. I'm thinking block low outside of his effective range in case he throws quicksand, and try to bait him into committing to normals that you can whiff punish. Make sure you wake up to make him respect it.

 

[Mandolore1123]

that puzzles me too. keepaway characters like jade, raiden, cetrion all have theses slow startup projectiles, while those with the best rushdown like sonya, geras, liu kang or johnny cage get super-spammable projctiles. especially sonya and geras, wtf?

My first tip is to go into practice mode and turn on frame data for both you and opponent. Practice being hit and blocking as well as Flawless Blocking (FLB) and looking at the data.

The best way to find out where characters are weak to FLB is to set up a mirror match of the character in question in practice mode, and have the CPU set to FLB everything and perform strings against them. It will teach you much where the holes are in strings.

Now for specific moves.

The Spear
Obviously, this move is less punishable the further away you are. It goes from like -30+ up close to -20 or so max range. Electric Fly at its fastest is 21 frames. If you perform it as a Reversal (IE executing the command on the first possible frame) the most you can hope for is a mid screen punish. Ironically, if you're that close to them when you block it, you can punish with f+4 instead.

Teleport
There's a few ways to deal with this. First of all, it's a pretty low hitting mid. Meaning if you think it's coming, you can jump ahead of time and just kick him as he flies under you. Also, the AMP'd version has less recovery than the normal one. Amp is -14, normal is -20. What this means is you have enough time to wait and see if the amp'd version comes out and can still punish it with a jab string (1,2,1 or 1,2~stormcell). You can even FLB the 2nd hit of the amp'd version and go that route.

The Overhead mixup
F+4,2,3 - Low, Overhead, Mid. You can actually FLB the 2nd hit (the overhead) and have enough time to perform the u+2 FLB launcher before the 3rd hit comes out. Otherwise you can jab punish (1,2...) the last hit if your timing is on point.
F+3,2 - Mid, Overhead, Low. You can FLB the 2nd hit again and U+2 the 3rd hit. Or you can block the string since it's -25 and go for big punish. Even B+2.
You'll notice a pattern here. Block low first hit (blocks mids and lows), stand block 2nd hit (overhead), block low again last hit (low or mid). Crouch - Stand - Crouch

The Spear spin (d,f+4)
The Last hit is -20, meaning you have enough time to mash out f+4 to punish. If your inputs are clean enough you can f+4~stormcell.
Same goes for the amp'd version.

Demon dash -17: Punish with b+1,2 or 3,2

Demon breath -21: Punish with - f+4

Honestly spear spin done at a distance is pretty much safe. You get pushed so far away and it’s only -19. Poke into spear spin is something you have to respect like Raiden’s poke into storm cell. Except of course you get out mashed when they d1 after they get hit. He can spear spin off his F34 and you can’t do anything about it, so it opens up jumps and further staggers. And F3 is an infinitely better stagger than our F3 will ever be. Combining with the threat of his teleport and safe full screen spear. This MU goes pretty badly

 

[kabelfritz]

How do you all fight Geras? His D+1 is stuffing all my attempts at canceling D1 or D3 into Storm Cell, which works on everybody else. Also, is his ground special (the one where the opponent sinks into the ground) punishable on block?

ive tried something that worked pretty ok: get the lifelead (hes not that good mid-range where you start, just throw out f1/f3 or sth) and then just retreat to the opposite side of the screen and duckblock, nothing else. that seemed to put the geras player into a thinking state.

 

[Mandolore1123]

ive tried something that worked pretty ok: get the lifelead (hes not that good mid-range where you start, just throw out f1/f3 or sth) and then just retreat to the opposite side of the screen and duckblock, nothing else. that seemed to put the geras player into a thinking state.

Step one of your plan seems hard enough to do given Raiden’s damage output compared to Geras O-0

 

[Cosmic Forge]

Honestly spear spin done at a distance is pretty much safe. You get pushed so far away and it’s only -19. Poke into spear spin is something you have to respect like Raiden’s poke into storm cell. Except of course you get out mashed when they d1 after they get hit. He can spear spin off his F34 and you can’t do anything about it, so it opens up jumps and further staggers. And F3 is an infinitely better stagger than our F3 will ever be. Combining with the threat of his teleport and safe full screen spear. This MU goes pretty badly

I was gonna reply to this earlier but I decided to go to practice mode and test this again. Lo and behold, the spear is "safe" to Raiden at max range.

Weird thing is, when I tested this 2 weeks ago, it wasn't. Well, at least at max range Raiden was simply too far, but the live frame data still showed -20 consistently. They've even messed with Brutality requirements multiple times since then, so much so that I've had to go back and revise my FAQ a few times to reflect the changes.

The whole "live tweaking" thing is starting to irritate me to be honest. But it doesn't take away from your finding. I'll edit my post with the new info. I also have to go and update my FAQ since apparently one of the Brutals has changed AGAIN, lol.

 

[Mandolore1123]

I was gonna reply to this earlier but I decided to go to practice mode and test this again. Lo and behold, the spear is "safe" to Raiden at max range.

Weird thing is, when I tested this 2 weeks ago, it wasn't. Well, at least at max range Raiden was simply too far, but the live frame data still showed -20 consistently. They've even messed with Brutality requirements multiple times since then, so much so that I've had to go back and revise my FAQ a few times to reflect the changes.

The whole "live tweaking" thing is starting to irritate me to be honest. But it doesn't take away from your finding. I'll edit my post with the new info. I also have to go and update my FAQ since apparently one of the Brutals has changed AGAIN, lol.

It’s just frustrating that you can’t poke back after he d4s since he can do spear spin and counter you, and poke into spear spin is a legit option, same as d1 teleport. You are forced to respect so many things from Scorpion, so Scorpion can go in without much fear. He has better mids, a better projectile, a better teleport in Reborn, better staggers, better pokes and better damage.

 

[Cosmic Forge]

It’s just frustrating that you can’t poke back after he d4s since he can do spear spin and counter you, and poke into spear spin is a legit option, same as d1 teleport. You are forced to respect so many things from Scorpion, so Scorpion can go in without much fear. He has better mids, a better projectile, a better teleport in Reborn, better staggers, better pokes and better damage.

Welcome to Ed Boon's baby, version 2.0. Or maybe 11.0? He had some pretty irritating shit in MKX as well. This time they traded cheesey unblockables for more "subtle" things like safe strings or moves. On paper, Scorp plays to Raiden's strengths in that patience is well rewarded (a YOLO teleport is bound to come eventually). But in reality, he's far more irritating to deal with. Wish I had better answers.

 

[Mandolore1123]

Is the correct way to punish Kung Lao's teleport to just D1 him when he comes out on reaction?
I always always always get thrown out of my D2 and it's too slow to catch the flip kick he does.