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R-E-S-P-E-C-T: The Kitana Match-up Thread

@DrDogg

Sonya has a hard time dealing with projectiles, that is a good place to start. Her MS 2 goes under some projectiles but require timing and spacing and i do not believe you will see it used too often, if you do however, you just have to make it harder for her to use it (i do not actually know if it at all goes under Kitanas ground fans, never got to try). Her Arc Kick is so slow that you really have no reason to worry about it other than as an anti air, at wich it is pretty godlike if performed early enough ofc. Sonyas projectiles are very good because of their recovery but Kitanas are simply way better in every other way.

It seems to me that cartwheel is negative though safe on block so you should take advantage of that by either d1,df2 and see what you get or 2,1,whatever.

Depending on how the Sonya player plays it might actually be a good idea to crouch and maybe even uppercut every so often. If the Sonya players want to deal max damage from a standard combo starter (2,1) both hits can be ducked and take a fair deal of time so you should be able to uppercut that on reaction.

Her divekicks are unsafe on block and whiff so they should if nothing else be possible to punish with ex lift or 2/2,1,whatever.

Ofcourse, i have fairly little experience in the matchup i just happen to play both sides of the problem. My Sonya is a bit unorthodox in the sense that i've developed my own style and i do not MS alot (and thus can't help you on that point). I should work on that, but i feel that people actually seem to miss out on how strong her ground game is because of her reset mixups and rather nasty and fast damage output. Still, if i get both sides of her nastyness under controll i think she could be a beast.
 
Can someone confirm for me if it's possible to punish these moves with 2 on block?

Raiden's teleport
Kano's upball
Reptile's elbow dash

I have been doing this online, but I'm not sure if the opponent was just being dumb or not. These 3 moves make matches hard to Kitana in some areas, so I'd like to find ways to punish them better.
 

VIDA

Focused Grace and Intensity
Can someone confirm for me if it's possible to punish these moves with 2 on block?

Raiden's teleport
Kano's upball
Reptile's elbow dash

I have been doing this online, but I'm not sure if the opponent was just being dumb or not. These 3 moves make matches hard to Kitana in some areas, so I'd like to find ways to punish them better.
Kano's Up ball post patch can DEF be countered by 2 into a kombo on block. Raiden's TP I'm not so sure but it's testable in practice mode when setting ai to wakeup and always block. I've seen players normally counter it with d1~cutter or d1~fan lift tho. I think 2 is estimated at 11-12 frames while d1 is 6.

Rep I can't test in practice cause the training mode only throws out the safe EX version on wakeup settings. Pretty sure I tried 2 online against teef and it didn't work but that's online and d1 might be the answer yet again.
 

spongebob

ಠ__ಠ
Can someone confirm for me if it's possible to punish these moves with 2 on block?

Raiden's teleport
Kano's upball
Reptile's elbow dash

I have been doing this online, but I'm not sure if the opponent was just being dumb or not. These 3 moves make matches hard to Kitana in some areas, so I'd like to find ways to punish them better.
Raidens tp is very hard to punish online. Just do d1 or any other fast move to interrupt what he tries to do.
Upball is punishable
Elbow dash is punishable by full combo too although online thats very hard too.
 

DrDogg

Noob
Sonya has a hard time dealing with projectiles, that is a good place to start. Her MS 2 goes under some projectiles but require timing and spacing and i do not believe you will see it used too often, if you do however, you just have to make it harder for her to use it (i do not actually know if it at all goes under Kitanas ground fans, never got to try). Her Arc Kick is so slow that you really have no reason to worry about it other than as an anti air, at wich it is pretty godlike if performed early enough ofc. Sonyas projectiles are very good because of their recovery but Kitanas are simply way better in every other way.
EX Arc Kick is fast enough to punish iAF, so if Sonya has meter I can't be careless with iAF. Also, Sonya's dive kicks give her the ability to keep my projectiles in check. It doesn't matter if fans are better than rings in this match-up.

It seems to me that cartwheel is negative though safe on block so you should take advantage of that by either d1,df2 and see what you get or 2,1,whatever.
Yeah, whenever I see Cartwheel I start my offense, but as soon as I have to block again (after a blocked d+1, for example) I'm stuck in MS guessing games.

Depending on how the Sonya player plays it might actually be a good idea to crouch and maybe even uppercut every so often. If the Sonya players want to deal max damage from a standard combo starter (2,1) both hits can be ducked and take a fair deal of time so you should be able to uppercut that on reaction.
That doesn't really work. I'm not going to release block in the hopeful event that the Sonya player starts with 2,1 (which I believe the 1 is a special-mid and can't be ducked). Sonya has way too many options to hit a non-blocking, crouching opponent.

Her divekicks are unsafe on block and whiff so they should if nothing else be possible to punish with ex lift or 2/2,1,whatever.
I haven't tested, but isn't the dive kick fairly safe if it's blocked low to the ground? Even if it's not safe, rarely do the Sonya players I go up against use it when it's not virtually guaranteed to hit.

Ofcourse, i have fairly little experience in the matchup i just happen to play both sides of the problem. My Sonya is a bit unorthodox in the sense that i've developed my own style and i do not MS alot (and thus can't help you on that point). I should work on that, but i feel that people actually seem to miss out on how strong her ground game is because of her reset mixups and rather nasty and fast damage output. Still, if i get both sides of her nastyness under controll i think she could be a beast.
MS is my main issue with Sonya. That and d+4. If you're not using MS, you're not playing Sonya. lol
 
EX Arc Kick is fast enough to punish iAF, so if Sonya has meter I can't be careless with iAF. Also, Sonya's dive kicks give her the ability to keep my projectiles in check. It doesn't matter if fans are better than rings in this match-up.
Sure it does matter, Arc kick has areas where it can't reach you, it goes about 3/4 screen, further away and you are safe (though if you move closer to her starting point she will turnaround and do a crossup kick if it can hit). You can mix up your air fans to catch either the arc kick or the divekick and get a decent combo off of that.

That doesn't really work. I'm not going to release block in the hopeful event that the Sonya player starts with 2,1 (which I believe the 1 is a special-mid and can't be ducked). Sonya has way too many options to hit a non-blocking, crouching opponent.
True, it is her 1,1 that can be ducked from most distances (it is a bit weird). The 2 of the 2,1 is special mid and the 1 is high so it will miss if you crouch block wich could allow you to poke out if you recognize the string.

I haven't tested, but isn't the dive kick fairly safe if it's blocked low to the ground? Even if it's not safe, rarely do the Sonya players I go up against use it when it's not virtually guaranteed to hit.
It is relatively safe if it connects low, but leaves her at a disadvantage. Seeing that you do play Kitana this means free pokes for you.

MS is my main issue with Sonya. That and d+4. If you're not using MS, you're not playing Sonya. lol
Wonder what i've been doing..
 
Here: http://www.justin.tv/thedigitaldojo/b/290154314

My match against Morty (Sonya) starts at 1 hour, 12 minutes. There are some things I could've done differently, but I was getting shut down most of the match.
Alright, cool. So the issue is the low punches and the ground & pound.

For the low punches, they can't ever be cancelled at any other point than after the second hit so thats when a special is coming and said special is probably going to be a cartwheel because it is the only special that can give her anything other than just a bit of damage. The cartwheel hits special mid so you can just crouch block that whole thing. Ofcourse you've got to fear the ground & pound since its an overhead but she can't ever reach with it after a d4 unless you are in the corner so no worries there, just keep blocking low after d4 and that should save you from most of its possible follow ups. Off of strings you will however have to guess but if you block the lows you can safely keep crouching wich will probably result in you being able to poke out after a cartwheel.

That's all i can think of atm.

*I will correct myself on hit (d4) Sonya can MS 1+3 and connect, both characters however pretty much need to have their characters in contact for this to be possible though. She can also connect if her back is to the corner. I was a bit hasty in my post, sorry.
 

aj1701

Noob
Bumping this thread.

Now that the hopefully last patch is out, I think its time some work went into this thread. The first post hasn't been updated, and some of the discussion might be out of date.

What do you guys think? Time to start going into detail vs. the rest of the cast? I know I play Jax differently than Ermac.

EDIT:

I know we have a match up thread stickied, but that seems toward tier list creation. This seems more like specific strats against other characters. I personally don't care about tier lists. :)
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
Well aj, I definitely still need help on how to approach Mileena. It seems 90% of my matches against them go like this:

sai, sai, sai, sai
(I'm close) d4, d4, d4
oh you're going to try and jump kick my d4? EAT MY TELEPORT


I've had some success recently with baiting teleports and catching them with a fan lift, but then I realized that you can't do it against ex teleport.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
Well aj, I definitely still need help on how to approach Mileena. It seems 90% of my matches against them go like this:

sai, sai, sai, sai
(I'm close) d4, d4, d4
oh you're going to try and jump kick my d4? EAT MY TELEPORT


I've had some success recently with baiting teleports and catching them with a fan lift, but then I realized that you can't do it against ex teleport.
Punish d4 spam (since it's mindless) with f2~:en fan or f2~cutter. That will make them stop throwing it out all day when you get close.
 
Well aj, I definitely still need help on how to approach Mileena. It seems 90% of my matches against them go like this:

sai, sai, sai, sai
(I'm close) d4, d4, d4
oh you're going to try and jump kick my d4? EAT MY TELEPORT


I've had some success recently with baiting teleports and catching them with a fan lift, but then I realized that you can't do it against ex teleport.
I love fighting Mileena as kitana now, i used to be so scared, but not any more lol.

If you're being zoned, do an EX teleport since it has armor, and it'll protect you from her teleport or sais.
If you're being D4, your poke can beat her d4 if you're close enough, if not, F+2 at the right distance.
When she teleports, you can D1 out of it, it won't hit you whether she ex it or not
If you block her ex tele, wait for her sai, then quickly d1, cutter

you can do a fan lift if you expect shes gonna tele, and it'll catch her,
You're best friend against mileena is D1, do not mash it, she can punish it with a roll if you do.
Bait her, be patient, and don't get pressured by her zoning, 5% chip damage from 5 consecutive sais, is better than eating a 25%+ combo :)
 

VIDA

Focused Grace and Intensity
Idk if it's been discussed but any advice on Kit vs Cyrax. The only guy I lost to all of T12 was leaky boat player lol.
 

Phantom

Kitana Prime aka MK's Rated R Superstar
I love fighting Mileena as kitana now, i used to be so scared, but not any more lol.

If you're being zoned, do an EX teleport since it has armor, and it'll protect you from her teleport or sais.

.....
We are talking Square Wave right?

If so, which I suspect we are...on the landing from the EX Square Wave, you'll just get d4 up-close anyway so is it really worth the meter?

Or am I seeing this wrong in my head. Could explain this a little more?
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
Yeah, ex square boost is a pretty terrible move, come to think of it. It's hard to time it right, or else you'll be hit out of it early, and you must do it so you don't land directly behind your opponent, so fullscreen is very dangerous. If you're landing behind them, you're easily punished.

As for Kitana vs Cyrax, I haven't had any problems myself. He can't throw nets one after another, so just wait for a net, block, and toss some iaf's or rush him down.
 

Magnet

No Longer Sh*t Tier!
Yeah, ex square boost is a pretty terrible move, come to think of it. It's hard to time it right, or else you'll be hit out of it early, and you must do it so you don't land directly behind your opponent, so fullscreen is very dangerous. If you're landing behind them, you're easily punished.
do an iSB (instant square boost)- time it to trespass a projectile (if enhanced) and hit the opponent up front.
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
do an iSB (instant square boost)- time it to trespass a projectile (if enhanced) and hit the opponent up front.
I'm not sure against Mileena, but some chars can actually hit you with two projectiles before you hit them with the speed of the move. It of course depends on your distance. Because it's instant air, it's also hard to time properly without being hit out of it (I don't know the exact armor properties, but I've been hit out of it many times, it seems similar to kabal's enhanced ND in that regard)
 

Magnet

No Longer Sh*t Tier!
I'm not sure against Mileena, but some chars can actually hit you with two projectiles before you hit them with the speed of the move. It of course depends on your distance. Because it's instant air, it's also hard to time properly without being hit out of it (I don't know the exact armor properties, but I've been hit out of it many times, it seems similar to kabal's enhanced ND in that regard)
yea the frames of armor on SB are sketchy. actually the real succes ive had using it with trades are against certain characters like Noob. but i have also been hit out of it lol :p i guess in the heat of the moment it isnt very reliable after all
 

VIDA

Focused Grace and Intensity
I feel fairly confident against Cyrax myself, but all my experience is online, so, ya. Leaky boat player?
A leaky boat player, meaning he mains Cyrax (PATCH one hole, another pops up get it ;) ) and this obstacle course of a char makes it annoying for someone like myself who plays Kitana more rushdown, so wanted some advice since he's the ONLY one I lost to all tournament. Ive already gotten some but wanna see if I can get more.
 

VIDA

Focused Grace and Intensity
As for Kitana vs Cyrax, I haven't had any problems myself. He can't throw nets one after another, so just wait for a net, block, and toss some iaf's or rush him down.
Maybe Im just impatient and hate waiting for the net, esp since this aforementioned player likes to retreat and wait around alot. I think iaf'ing until he throws it out makes sense. i think i abandoned that b/c sometimes I would messup the iaf, she would jump too high and get netted for that reset combo bullshit. But I noticed at this tourney I just I can easily be more strict and consistent with iaf execution, shoulda tried it in our two matches lol.
 

aj1701

Noob
Maybe Im just impatient and hate waiting for the net, esp since this aforementioned player likes to retreat and wait around alot. I think iaf'ing until he throws it out makes sense. i think i abandoned that b/c sometimes I would messup the iaf, she would jump too high and get netted for that reset combo bullshit. But I noticed at this tourney I just I can easily be more strict and consistent with iaf execution, shoulda tried it in our two matches lol.
I hear you, I like to try and overwhelm with pressure. Kitanas fun though because she's not terrible at zoning (IMO). I think more patience would have gone a long way. Block net, wait for an opening. Cyrax players seem to like to teleport once in F2 range, sometimes trying an iSB is the way to go... you'll either do it and hit them, or they'll teleport and get hit with a fan. But then again, all my experience is online, so maybe tourney players wouldn't teleport as much.
 

VIDA

Focused Grace and Intensity
Ok to give you guys a better idea of my problem, here's a video of me money matching the same bastard (lol) that beat me both times with his Cyrax at T12. The match starts at 21:00.



Also, for those wondering about the Mil matchup as Ive noticed in this last page of the thread, in the same video I money match a Mil player at around 12:27 of the same video. Not my best performance, but I feel alot more comfortable against mileenas with my kit than i used to be.

One more thing, there is a match between another Kitana (Neo russel) and the same Cyrax player at 20:34 of this video:


Ive studied this match but anything you guys can take away from this match that i havent, or any feedback on the matches I posted of my Kit at all would be welcome and much appreciated.
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
Ernovaku, the main problem I'm seeing is that you're not respecting his net trades. You're lucky that he wasn't getting much off combo-wise, because he has the opportunity almost every time he's seeing you go fan-happy. Lame it out or rush him down, wait for the net and block it, then you can start zoning. The last thing you want to do is throw ground fans or mid/close iaf's when he has a net ready. Also, when he throws the bombs out, he's baiting a jump with a delayed air fan, so choose to squareboost instead there (or EX squareboost once you're low and hit him). Try to be more consistent with long-range low iaf's too, that way you have a better ability to recover before a net hits you.

One general thing, I saw that the Cyrax player was guarding your f41~cutters every time. If you're able to get alot of opportunities with f4 and you see that he's guarding it, throw out the random f4b4 to get him to respect the mixup. That way you might get a full combo off the f41 on block.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
You weren't playing the Cyrax matchup with a plan. You were just mindlessly throwing out iAF and it didn't look like you were attempting any setups. He was doing wakeup air throw the entire time and that is punishable with 2~fan, 2~fan lift on reaction.

Another thing I noticed was that when he threw a bomb on top of you, you would throw iAFs over it and get caught in the net. The way to deal with bombs thrown on you is to dash forward (or walk) and block the net, THEN throw iAF between the cooldown on the net. He can't throw another one for like 2 seconds so take advantage of it.

Something else is when he throws a net from 3/4 screen, use :en iSB to hit him. You will take no damage because the net doesn't do any.

He was throwing nets up close which is punishable by 21~whatever you want.

My advice is to find another LB player (Cyrax) or the same guy and play him as much as he will let you to learn the matchup. Punish his habits as he had many.