General/Other - Ruthless PnG run cancel makes other M+Can+R= Combo extension underwhelming

[Odyessus]

I’m going to preface this with the fact that I love Ferra/Torr as a character. My buddy mains him and I have been fight against every variation since week 3 of the games release. F/T is a tight execution, hard thought-fought character. Basically you have to possess a brain attuned for fighting in order to win, and your battles will be hard fought none the less.

With that being said, F/T’s new buffs (Buffs were needed) blow my mind! Not in a good way either. F/T’s supposed Pain n’ Gain run-cancels are not CANCELS at all. When you Pain n’ Gain xx run-cancel on hit, F/T not only gets his buff but also gets a hit of armor. I don’t know the exact damage gained but let’s just say F/T gains 7% with cancel extension and 20% damage buff. (not to mention armor ya know just in case you screw up your cancel) I believe this makes all the other characters that have Move+Cancel+Run= Extended Combos (M+C+R) very underwhelming. When D' Vorah does her bug cancel the bug doesn’t hit causing damage and THEN she can run cancel into combo. This is the same for Liu Kang in Dragons Fire. When Liu cancels, his fireball doesn’t hit causing 7% damage then able to continue into a combo. This is the same for Jax (HW), Sonya(SO)* and Erron Black(MM). Also none of these characters get armor (ya know just in case) and their run cancels are significantly tighter on timing. I’m telling you compare Jax’s 123 xx rocket cancel into 12xxoverhead to every one of F/T’s "supposed" run-cancels.

Yes it can be argued that F/T takes 5% damage every time he PnGs but that is well worth it considering you get Armor, 20% damage buff (just on level 1!) and a continued combo for an easy 7% plus per combo.

Mainly pointing this out because F/T’s supposed PnG run CANCEL (that doesn’t actually cancel a move at all gives 20% damage buff+armor) is far superior to any other characters M+C+R= Extended Combo in the game. This makes the rest of the casts M+C+R= Extended Combo seem absolutely pointless in comparison.

Not beckoning for a nerf just something that makes more sense and justify's other M+C+R= Extended Combo justified. One example would be going for the PnG cancel actually cancels the move no added benefit but extends combo. (Ya know…. like everyone else)

@secretFerra/Torrsociety
@MadeFromMetal

 

[PetulantWaste]

They need it.

 

[Odyessus]

Agreed the cancel is needed to extend combos, gain damage, mind games and the awesomeness that comes with cancels. Just saying F/T has way more added benefits than the average bear.

 

[MadeFromMetal]

I'll respond in more depth later, but for now...I leave you with this.

 

[Predannok]

FERRA CUT YOU!!!

 

[Wetdoba]

Make everyone else lose access to half their moves and inflict damage on themselves every single time they do a cancel and then they can get what we have. We can only do one cancel in a row too for the exact reason that we need Ferra on our back to do a cancel but lose Ferra for doing a cancel.

FT got nothing they didn't need in this patch. Ruthless now has its own role and strengths just like our other variations

 

[Odyessus]

Make everyone else lose access to half their moves and inflict damage on themselves every single time they do a cancel and then they can get what we have. We can only do one cancel in a row too for the exact reason that we need Ferra on our back to do a cancel but lose Ferra for doing a cancel.

FT got nothing they didn't need in this patch

Yes F/T loses moves the most important being an ovehead attack which would lead to better mix-ups after the cancel. But other than that I don't think the rest of the lost moves are all to practical. Why would you want to throw Ferra after a cancel anyways there are better options. Plus not having Ferra on your back gives you arguably the best down 1 in the biz. Apart of the move being canceled would eliminate the stab also eliminate losing Ferra. IMO it just makes more sense and goes along with the rest of the cast.

Also the benefits gained from 5% health loss outweighs the loss 10 fold. Also I'm not a F/T user. Just and avid adversary. This is also in the F/T column so I was expecting more no's then yes's. lol

 

[Odyessus]

FERRA CUT YOU!!!

I know you used HW Jax! You have to feel his LAW cancel pales in comparison!!!

 

[Wetdoba]

Yes F/T loses moves the most important being an ovehead attack which would lead to better mix-ups after the cancel. But other than that I don't think the rest of the lost moves are all to practical. Why would you want to throw Ferra after a cancel anyways there are better options. Plus not having Ferra on your back gives you arguably the best down 1 in the biz.

Also the benefits gained from 5% health loss outweighs the loss 10 fold. Also I'm not a F/T user. Just and avid adversary. This is also in the F/T column so I was expecting more no's then yes's. lol

You don't just lose the tosses, you lose command grab, overhead, and armor moves. The cancels are something Ruthless needed to be its own variation. The 5% isn't a big deal once or twice obviously but since it takes 5% each time for a cancel we are naturally restricted in terms of how many cancels we can do each round unless we are just going to willingly give up a free combos worth of damage each round for frame traps. Obviously it is still good for the damage boost and flash parry ability but let's not act like this dwarfs all the other pressure characters in the game

 

[buyacushun]

How long does it take ferra to come back? I thought she would come back mid torr combo after the cancel. That doesn't seem so bad.

 

[Wetdoba]

How long does it take ferra to come back? I thought she would come back mid torr combo after the cancel. That doesn't seem so bad.

She will come back mid combo if you do a PnGRC into F2 but its not like the pain n gain stuff will become the next "psuedo block infinite" because she wont be back in time to loop pain n gain cancels on block

 

[Invincible Salads]

you forgot about E=MC.2

we still talking about fighting games here or we talking about algebra?

 

[Dizzy]

I didn't get a chance to mess with the new ruthless, but the idea of this is the same from Kano's Cutthroat combo extension with EX chest bump, which has always been in the game. So I don't think this is a completely new or unique idea if I understand it correctly.

 

[Predannok]

I know you used HW Jax! You have to feel his LAW cancel pales in comparison!!!

it was always shit in comparison to the rest of the cancels, ferra torrs is nothing compared to A-list (who ive been playing for weeks) run cancels or Dragonfires cancels. Armor and damage buff cancel mid combo = Kano cutthroat Charge up. A-list can loop this shit on you if u dont have meter and even if u got meter he got uninterruptable cancels or can break ur armor.

As long has they dont get 60-70% one bar or 50% meterless i see no problem.

 

[MadeFromMetal]

You play Jax, so lets play "Hypothetically Speaking".

Hypothetically speaking, Jax is in a heated match with Johnny Cage. Johnny, not having a filter, has just said something completely inappropriate about Jax' wife, Vera. Incensed, Jax decides to blow Johnny to the moon and whips out his trusty rocket launcher. He sights Johnny in, whispers, "You ain't bad." and pulls the trigger! Oh no! The rocket launcher backfired and exploded in Jax' face! (CANCEL)

However, Jax' arms, the technological marvels that they are, have sensors for just this reason. His arms immediately use 75% of their power to emit a small blast creating a short field of protective energy to mitigate damage, resulting in only a 5% hit to Jax' health, and nullifying any stun from his opponents attacks. (ARMOR)

He drops the Law Rocket and Machine Gun (zoning tools = OH/Low Ferra Toss). His arms, now being at only 25% power, must recharge. This only takes 5 seconds, but during that 5 seconds he can no longer perform any move that uses the bulk of his robotic arms energy. This means he no longer has access to his Gotcha Grab (makes strings safe = OH Ferra Toss), Dash Punch (creates mixups = OH/Low Ferra Toss, Tuck n Charge, b2), and Ground Pound (unblockable = Grab n' Stab). (LOSES TOOLS/MOVES)

Jax is only stunned for a half second, but now he's PISSED! He's pissed at his stupid defective LAW Rocket. He's pissed at stupid Special Forces for doing back alley deals with the stupid Black Dragon for some stupid ass defective ass weapons. He's pissed at Johnny's stupid fucking grinning face and he's pissed he's even doing this stupid fighting because Jackson Fuckin' Briggs is too old for this shit! This rage results in a 20% increase to Jax's damage for 10 seconds until he calms down and realizes Johnny is only trying to rile him up, cuz he's a dick like that. (DAMAGE BOOST)

Now to me, all that seems incredibly fair. I'd love it if I didn't have to worry about random mixups mid-string or watch for the unblockable while you're applying pressure. If you couldn't end shit in Gotcha Grab I could punish you far more often. But no, when you cancel, you get to keep all your moves and options. Seems like a square deal to me.

 

[Odyessus]

Tuche' ah yes Tuche' I concede. Keep your cancels F/T and Jax can keep his arms. ONTO THE KANO THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! I doubt they will have such a worthy response.

In this route though Jax would be able to combo long enough into getting his tools back. Which that's not so bad. Just saying.

 

[buyacushun]

She will come back mid combo if you do a PnGRC into F2 but its not like the pain n gain stuff will become the next "psuedo block infinite" because she wont be back in time to loop pain n gain cancels on block

Oh. What about on block? Can do something safe and/or long enough for ferra to return?

As for block infinites, I doubt f/t will even see more competitive play lol.

 

[MadeFromMetal]

Tuche' ah yes Tuche' I concede. Keep your cancels F/T and Jax can keep his arms. ONTO THE KANO THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! I doubt they will have such a worthy response.

In this route though Jax would be able to combo long enough into getting his tools back. Which that's not so bad. Just saying.

Why couldn't you just let us have nice things to begin with? lol.

 

[Wetdoba]

Oh. What about on block? Can do something safe and/or long enough for ferra to return?

As for block infinites, I doubt f/t will even see more competitive play lol.

no, nothing on block loops into itself with the cancels, Ferra doesn't come back in time

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

What you're saying would make sense if Ruthless was as strong as other characters to begin with. It's okay if this one aspect of his play makes other character's underwhelming, because the other characters make him underwhelming in other ways.

 

[chrisofrays]

Is the b121 PNG RC F2 consistent? Im having trouble with it. If it is anyone know how tight the link is?

 

[Wetdoba]

Is the b121 PNG RC F2 consistent? Im having trouble with it. If it is anyone know how tight the link is?

B121 isnt wort trying. Try 11 xx PnGRC or 2xxPnGRC for punishes. If you want to do it off a mid B12 only would be easier

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

F/T’s supposed Pain n’ Gain run-cancels are not CANCELS at all. When you Pain n’ Gain xx run-cancel on hit, F/T not only gets his buff but also gets a hit of armor.

You have to remember that you only get the armour in active frames, and you only have active frames when Ferra is on your back. insta cancelling P'n'G into run knocks Ferra off losing the armour. I need to practice it more, but I had set Takeda to whip flurry reversal, and he blew me up every time I cancelled as fast as i could. It's a hard read for the opponent, but the armour property is not as amazing as you seem to be making it.

 

[Odyessus]

You have to remember that you only get the armour in active frames, and you only have active frames when Ferra is on your back. insta cancelling P'n'G into run knocks Ferra off losing the armour. I need to practice it more, but I had set Takeda to whip flurry reversal, and he blew me up every time I cancelled as fast as i could. It's a hard read for the opponent, but the armour property is not as amazing as you seem to be making it.

That's why I said just in case you mess up your supposed cancel. The mind games PnG brings is awesome. IMO I'm making the new PnG seem as amazing as it really is.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

That's why I said just in case you mess up your supposed cancel. The mind games PnG brings is awesome. IMO I'm making the new PnG seem as amazing as it really is.

yea, what's great is on hit, get a successful cancel, continue your combo long enough to get Ferra back, then use P'n'G again without a cancel to get that shweet sweet two hits of armour.