General/Other - Ruthless PnG run cancel makes other M+Can+R= Combo extension underwhelming

[Odyessus]

b2 (the OH slap), has almost no vertical hitbox over or directly in front of Torr, it's not as good as you would think, d1 and d3 are good, but Torr's hitbox makes low profiling jump ins/cross ups difficult.

I was thinking about the bf3 charge slap move he has.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

I was thinking about the bf3 charge slap move he has.

ah, same thing really, the hitbox is all a few inches in front of Torr, it doesn't cover his head.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

thread title looks like a math formula or something

lol yes, I was so confused at what this thread was about first time I read it.

 

[Wetdoba]

There is already the mind game of whether we will even cancel the pain n gain or not, we do not need more options after the cancels. Since pain n gain has armored recovery and gives a damage boost doing it raw in peoples faces is intimidating AF. Doing raw pain n gain into immediate EX command grab will have anywhere from 3 to 6 hits of armor and do good unclashable damage. Once the cancel or no cancel mix up is established it also opens up the late cancel option. Lets not make ruthless broke guys cmon now

 

[MadeFromMetal]

this became especially bad during the beta because they nerfed throws. his offense after png was f2 or throw but since throws are easily teched now he's limited a lot more.

If you're looking for immediate damage, then yes...but you can always stagger. PNGxx1,1 leaves you at -1 and PNGxB1,2 leaves you at neutral. Unless they're ready to armored reversal...thats a free d1 check (or, if they're respecting the d1, go right back into) b12 at which point ferra is on your back and you can either OH toss for plus frames and more pressure or you can PnG again. While ruthless gets the most immediate damage...that's not what the variation is about. It's about pressure and making them scared to press buttons. I rarely open up knowledgable opponents with PnG, I have to use frame traps and the mind games that accompany the cancel pressure.

 

[omooba]

Are you sure you can make f3 safe with a cancel?? I thought that could be blown up.... Been wrong before. I feel F/T has good anti airs tools. His d2 is garbage but he has that overhead slap move and his d1 and d3 are awesome for anti airs and get good damage. F/T's PnG cancel stacks in both armor and damage.

Jax gets to cancel into safety and that's about it...

I also main Jax and my buddy is a F/T main from the get go... well since month 2 of the game. I feel and have felt for awhile now since the last patch Ruthless is A+ all around. I also have Jax A+.

I have him at like B and jax at A+. Down 1 and three are anti airs but I wouldn't say they're good. And jax gets more than just being safe. There's a reason why most top tiers play that variation the most. I listed more reason in last post. Let's also remember that she cant png with low health

 

[omooba]

If you're looking for immediate damage, then yes...but you can always stagger. PNGxx1,1 leaves you at -1 and PNGxB1,2 leaves you at neutral. Unless they're ready to armored reversal...thats a free d1 check (or, if they're respecting the d1, go right back into) b12 at which point ferra is on your back and you can either OH toss for plus frames and more pressure or you can PnG again. While ruthless gets the most immediate damage...that's not what the variation is about. It's about pressure and making them scared to press buttons. I rarely open up knowledgable opponents with PnG, I have to use frame traps and the mind games that accompany the cancel pressure.

I agree with all this. I didn't say he sucks I'm just comparing him to jax. Who not only has 50/50's but his cancels give him pressure after. And regarding pressure after png. It's nothing compared to jax's pressure even if his cancels made him loose the rocket

 

[MadeFromMetal]

I agree with all this. I didn't say he sucks I'm just comparing him to jax. Who not only has 50/50's but his cancels give him pressure after. And regarding pressure after png. It's nothing compared to jax's pressure even if his cancels made him loose the rocket

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so if you felt I did, my bad. I'll agree that Jax has crazy pressure. The difference is that Jax' cancel pressure can be disrespected. Opponents HAVE to respect the fact we can let png rock and eat their attack. Not to mention, Jax doesn't have many jailing cancels. (Just s4 I think.) Personally, I'd take png over law rocket any day, even though Jax definitely has more attacking/pressure/mixup options after a successful cancel.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

Opponents HAVE to respect the fact we can let png rock and eat their attack.

Pretty much this, we have almost a full second of 1/2/5 hits of armour, and can cancel at any point in that time frame. WE don't even have to hold the input during those frames, that more than anything is what undermines other cancels when you compare.

 

[omooba]

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, so if you felt I did, my bad. I'll agree that Jax has crazy pressure. The difference is that Jax' cancel pressure can be disrespected. Opponents HAVE to respect the fact we can let png rock and eat their attack. Not to mention, Jax doesn't have many jailing cancels. (Just s4 I think.) Personally, I'd take png over law rocket any day, even though Jax definitely has more attacking/pressure/mixup options after a successful cancel.

define disrespected? lol

 

[Odyessus]

I think what he's trying to tell ya is Jax is only + on 2 cancel strings. Standing 4 RC is +12(Probably more) and B3 RC is +1. Any cancel string outside that can be checked with a poke. 123 rc, 123 rc is not a block string. If you try to do that someone can poke before you get the next 123 out. Your opponent does have to respect the 123 rc block the poke back into 123. But a LAW cancel outside of standing 4 can always be disrespected with armor and pokes. And god forbid its the armored command grab!

There are plenty of ways around this though.

 

[omooba]

I think what he's trying to tell ya is Jax is only + on 2 cancel strings. Standing 4 RC is +12(Probably more) and B3 RC is +1. Any cancel string outside that can be checked with a poke. 123 rc, 123 rc is not a block string. If you try to do that someone can poke before you get the next 123 out. Your opponent does have to respect the 123 rc block the poke back into 123. But a LAW cancel outside of standing 4 can always be disrespected with armor and pokes. And god forbid its the armored command grab!

There are plenty of ways around this though.

i get that but ferra's isn't plus to my knowledge or at east can be disrespected just as much and jax has better buttons. all i'm saying is i believe because of jax's tools he just gets a lot more out of cancelling than ferra cus he looses a lot of tools

 

[Wetdoba]

i get that but ferra's isn't plus to my knowledge or at east can be disrespected just as much and jax has better buttons. all i'm saying is i believe because of jax's tools he just gets a lot more out of cancelling than ferra cus he looses a lot of tools

The majority of FTs cancels are plus. F2 cancels give them true blockstrings too and is at least plus 15 because F2 PnGC F2 jails

 

[omooba]

The majority of FTs cancels are plus. F2 cancels give them true blockstrings too and is at least plus 15 because F2 PnGC F2 jails

wow just checked good to know. that's a game changer. still not jax good imo cus like i said he looses a lot of moves and he can't do them consecutively but this changes a lot about how i play him. how did i never notice it's plus. probably cus i'm always fighting cassie but good to know.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

The majority of FTs cancels are plus. F2 cancels give them true blockstrings too and is at least plus 15 because F2 PnGC F2 jails

on block??

 

[omooba]

on block??

but just checked
f2 is plus as hell too

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

but just checked
f2 is plus as hell too

Fack. I need to start working png into pressure then. Right now I'm really only using it for damage and parries, I don't like my options after losing ferra right now, I usually cancel after 11, but I think on block that is pretty minus.

 

[Odyessus]

@MadeFromMetal send these young harbingers down the path of destruction. I don't play F/T but I know b121 overhead toss is plus and a hitch to deal with. You can armor as there is a gap but thats why b12 overhead toss exist I guess...

 

[omooba]

@MadeFromMetal send these young harbingers down the path of destruction. I don't play F/T but I know b121 overhead toss is plus and a hitch to deal with. You can armor as there is a gap but thats why b12 overhead toss exist I guess...

that i knew about for sure