PND Mustard's thoughts on Custom Variations in Competitive Play

So, yesterday right after the Kombat Kast, Mustard went back to the segment where Tyler mentions the feedback they received recently in regards to the statement about CV's being limited to pretty much Player Matches online.

Mustard went on to express his personal opinion on the matter, and proceeds to outline the arguments for and against the usage of the customs in tournaments, which you can see below

Agree/disagree?

 

They are being smart about it. I can respect that.

At this point I'm almost sure we're going to at least try tournaments with custom variation enabled in the future, which is great.

Good job NRS!

 

I feel more positive about the whole thing after Tyler addressed it yesterday.

That said, I agree with Mustard that 2 variations on release is worrying. This means that in a ranked environment, there will be plenty of moves that we simply won't get to see/use until NRS comes up with a variation for them.

This kinda killed my hype for Raiden, who we know has an extensive list of selectable abilities. From a competitive aspect, you'll have access to half the character at best. At least on launch.

We'll see. I have faith that down the line everything will work out, but release is gonna be rough IMO.

 

2 variations per would have been awesome. If they just divvied up the whole moveset between the 2 variations so we would have 2 variations with a big pool of moves.

But instead yeah now we just gonna have a bunch of dead moves sitting there doing nothing.

 

But why would you not play player matches with kustom variations? There are not gonna be any stupid stats and augments. It's just your kustom variation and skill vs the other's guy. And they said there is a matchmaking based on skill, so probably, as I said before, we will have a mode with leaderboards and ranks for kustom variations.

And here's where our job starts. If we will be playing this mode and pressure NRS to make it a competetive standard, we will get it. Good that they are testing the waters.

 

They are being smart about it. I can respect that.

At this point I'm almost sure we're going to at least try tournaments with custom variation enabled in the future, which is great.

Good job NRS!

Please don’t go hyping yourself thinking we might get custome variation in the future you will just disappoint yourself

 

Please don’t go hyping yourself thinking we might get custome variation in the future you will just disappoint yourself

They said they are looking into it, meaning they saw the incredibly negative feedback and got the message.

I think what Tyler said could be seen as a "we aren't ready for that yet, but we understood that you want it", and it's something I can respect. I'm honestly very positive on this one.

 

But why would you not play player matches with kustom variations? There are not gonna be any stupid stats and augments. It's just your kustom variation and skill vs the other's guy. And they said there is a matchmaking based on skill, so probably, as I said before, we will have a mode with leaderboards and ranks for kustom variations.

And here's where our job starts. If we will be playing this mode and pressure NRS to make it a competetive standard, we will get it. Good that they are testing the waters.

Because having custom variations in player matches only means that there is little to no carry-over to the competitive side of things.

If you're somebody who doesn't intend to compete in any way, then none of this really affects you. But if you're planning to play in tournaments, why would you play in a meta that isn't even allowed competitively? It just breeds bad habits.

 

Good video. The only thing I don't care for is the idea of move icons showing up during actual gameplay on the UI. To add to the Marvel comparison, even though each player selects 3 assists, those assists don't need to show up in the UI. It should show what you pick on the select screen, and if you wanna know what your opponent has, look on their side before confirming your selection.

 

They said they are looking into it, meaning they saw the incredibly negative feedback and got the message.

I think what Tyler said could be seen as a "we aren't ready for that yet, but we understood that you want it", and it's something I can respect. I'm honestly very positive on this one.

I understand what you mean but if it do not make I do not want to see another thread people pulling out there pitch fork again

 

I personally whether have pre set variation custom is going to be so random.

 

I feel more positive about the whole thing after Tyler addressed it yesterday.

That said, I agree with Mustard that 2 variations on release is worrying. This means that in a ranked environment, there will be plenty of moves that we simply won't get to see/use until NRS comes up with a variation for them.

This kinda killed my hype for Raiden, who we know has an extensive list of selectable abilities. From a competitive aspect, you'll have access to half the character at best. At least on launch.

We'll see. I have faith that down the line everything will work out, but release is gonna be rough IMO.

The problem is that it's not like every variation should have an entirely different set of moves from the other variations. For example, for Kabal I would always want to have the combo extender and the restand, and the only difference between the two variations should be the last move (either the dash cancels or low hook).
I have a feeling that NRS will not do this, and instead they will try to make the variations completely different by utilizing the rest of the moves, thus making one variation extremely inferior.

 

Excellent video and some good points.

I still went into this game fully believing that kustoms will, and currently should be banned in competitive play.

That said, I'm not sure who said it, but the best possible way to balance this is by levying ability slot penalties on very powerful abilities.

Let's take my biggest complaint so far MK11, Misery Blade.
I fully believe that this move makes Scorpion feel like I'm playing, or playing against and MKX character.

Hypothetically, lets say that this becomes an overwhelming ability and Misery Scorpion WITH Demon Dash, rises in the ranks and starts winning non-stop and he's one of the best, if not the best in the game.

Then, all NRS has to do is levy an ability slot penalty. Meaning, instead of Misery taking 2 slots, they make it take a full 3 slots, and there you go, now he loses a tool, he loses an ability slot and he's strong but he's lost an option. Now he can mix you, but not the great options that Demon Dash offers.

Now it's become a decision. If you have an opponent that jumps a lot, and you still want to use Scorpion, maybe you choose Demon Dash and another ability because you want that anti-air. (Yes, I know you can use 1, 3 and 4 as anti-airs)

 

@HellblazerHawkman when you get a chance.

 

Excellent video and some good points.

I still went into this game fully believing that kustoms will, and currently should be banned in competitive play.

That said, I'm not sure who said it, but the best possible way to balance this is by levying ability slot penalties on very powerful abilities.

Let's take my biggest complaint so far MK11, Misery Blade.
I fully believe that this move makes Scorpion feel like I'm playing, or playing against and MKX character.

Hypothetically, lets say that this becomes an overwhelming ability and Misery Scorpion WITH Demon Dash, rises in the ranks and starts winning non-stop and he's one of the best, if not the best in the game.

Then, all NRS has to do is levy an ability slot penalty. Meaning, instead of Misery taking 2 slots, they make it take a full 3 slots, and there you go, now he loses a tool, he loses an ability slot and he's strong but he's lost an option. Now he can mix you, but not the great options that Demon Dash offers.

Now it's become a decision. If you have an opponent that jumps a lot, and you still want to use Scorpion, maybe you choose Demon Dash and another ability because you want that anti-air. (Yes, I know you can use 1, 3 and 4 as anti-airs)

Also remember that’s not the only option for nerfing moves. They could simply make the two moves conflict with each other, keeping their slot costs intact but just not allowing them to be equipped together.

 

The decision isn’t as big of an issue compared to how they handled it.

They’ve been hyping up kustom variations pretty much since they were revealed. They promoted them at every opportunity and heavily promoted them in the kombat kasts. They allowed them in the stress test and beta as well. And the problem is there was never any explicitly clear indication that they wouldn’t be available for ranked or tournament play. Just vague “probably’s” at most. So when you have all this build up, so much hype around them, we got to use and test them in the betas, then after all that you go “oh yeah, btw, kustom variations are for single player and casual matches only, LOL gotcha!”

It’s just extremely disappointing no matter how big of a shill you are for NRS or Mortal Kombat.

 

The truth is, overwhelming majority of MKX characters had either 2 or only 1 variation commonly used in competitive play by a couple months into the game’s life. There might be a couple of exceptions, but 90+% of the cast only had a variation or two that were frequently used.

So imo, this might be a good thing: rather than slapping 3 variations together, focus on two, make sure they’re really good, balanced, useful and well thought-out. Then you can do the same for a 3rd later and really focus on making it great.

 

Please don’t go hyping yourself thinking we might get custome variation in the future you will just disappoint yourself

If there were ever any arguments to be made that we're disappointing ourselves instead of being disappointed by NRS, they're definitely gone after the 2 variation+"we're looking into it" Kombat Kast. 2 variations, dude. This is a big deal.

 

I am so glad that PND Mustard is fighting for custom variations in ranked. We need to build the community and keep the possibility of unique versions of characters. Ketchup and Mustard has been a mouthpiece for the community and there is no other top players that I respect more!

My concerns with only 2 preset variations on launch:

• What if the preset with Misery Blade has crap specials with it making it lackluster?
• What if this removes player individuality?
• What if like mustard said only one variation is viable (Gutted/Misery Blade)?
• What if only having two variations makes the characters easier to counter pick being limited with moves?
• What if a character has bad matchups on both variations?
• Like mustard said: what if presets discourage new players from becoming competitive?
• What if your favorite character doesn't fit your style with only two variations?
• What if preset variations make the game boring and stale quick because it's the same shit over and over?
• This could make characters easier to pick up for non mains allowing counter picking meta.

How I think this could be beneficial going forward:

• Having preset's can make it easier to balance early on. After all no game is balanced on day one.
• This could reduce knowledge needed to compete.
• This could help identify broke specials and normals in a no competitive zone (casual matches) keeping ranked honest and more fair until the moves are adjusted to be fair. And allow us to discover broke tools and get them toned early on.

I definitely want custom in competitive play.
It was the main marketing point for me and made me feel like I could truly use my version of my favorite character making them a reflection of me and my style. I hope they will implement or at least test it in ranked before the 4 month mark so we can truly explore our characters in every way.

 

Excellent video and some good points.

I still went into this game fully believing that kustoms will, and currently should be banned in competitive play.

That said, I'm not sure who said it, but the best possible way to balance this is by levying ability slot penalties on very powerful abilities.

Let's take my biggest complaint so far MK11, Misery Blade.
I fully believe that this move makes Scorpion feel like I'm playing, or playing against and MKX character.

Hypothetically, lets say that this becomes an overwhelming ability and Misery Scorpion WITH Demon Dash, rises in the ranks and starts winning non-stop and he's one of the best, if not the best in the game.

Then, all NRS has to do is levy an ability slot penalty. Meaning, instead of Misery taking 2 slots, they make it take a full 3 slots, and there you go, now he loses a tool, he loses an ability slot and he's strong but he's lost an option. Now he can mix you, but not the great options that Demon Dash offers.

Now it's become a decision. If you have an opponent that jumps a lot, and you still want to use Scorpion, maybe you choose Demon Dash and another ability because you want that anti-air. (Yes, I know you can use 1, 3 and 4 as anti-airs)

Yes, make misery blade take 3 slots... And you are nerfing scorpion as collateral damage.

The problem with custom variations, is that you need to maintain a balanced roster while you try to make all moves viable. Because even if your game is perfectly balanced in term of tier, people will complain that many moves are trash and game is balanced only if you pick certain abalities for each char. And then you need to ask this question... should a character be viable no matter what abilities people choose? Because that seems unrealistic, something more appropriate would be that you have some skill combinations for every character equally viable.

So, going back to scorpion as an example: people figured out that misery blade + demon dash is the best combination in like 2 days (same thing gonna happen for every character, just a metter of time). Let's say that after many, many patches, NRS makes the perfect adjustments, so now you can have 2 more combinations of skills, exactly as powerful as misery blade + demon dash. So, doesn't that sound like... uhm... preset variations? With the illusion that yes, you can choose, but if you wanna win, you will go for the best moves. So we finally end in the launch version of the game: preset var for competitive, custom for casual...

 

And then you need to ask this question... should a character be viable no matter what abilities people choose?

No. No one should be asking that question. You can't make a viable DOTA team from 6 support heroes, you can't make a viable Overwatch team from 6 support heroes, and you shouldn't be able to make a viable MK11 character from 3 abilities that have absolutely no synergy with each other. That's just silly.

So, doesn't that sound like... uhm... preset variations? With the illusion that yes, you can choose, but if you wanna win, you will go for the best moves.

No, it doesn't sound exactly like preset variations. First of all, because people have other considerations than JUST winning. Even pros. And even for those pros who are EXCLUSIVELY concerned with winning, their own innate skillsets might favor sub-optimal characters or variations to such a degree, that it makes those characters or variations optimal for them.

If you need hard proof, look no further than MKX. Here is Combo Breaker 2018. Here is the most up to date MKX tier list. Are Swarm Queen D'Vorah, Brood Mother D'Vorah, Tempest Kung Lao, Covert Ops Sonya, Flame Fist Liu Kang S tier? No. So why were they played? Well, because the pros prefer those characters/variations, or because the pros are actually better with those suboptimal characters/variations than with higher tier ones.

And if that all isn't enough to make the "one variation used per character" argument sound bunk...

Let's try a thought experiment:

If a game launches with only two characters with one "variation" each, and we give them both a random power level between 0.0 and 10.0, how long will it take the community to figure out which character is stronger? Chances are extremely high that the difference between them will be more than 1.0, i.e. extremely noticeable. Probably wouldn't even take a day, right?

Now let's make it 25 characters with one variation each. How long to rank them all with no mistakes? Suddenly instead of one character being 9.4 and the other character being 3.7, you have 25 characters all over the spectrum. One might be 9.6, another 9.3, another 9.1. Telling the difference between them could take weeks or even months.

Now let's make it 25 characters with 3 variations each. That's 75 unique character+variations total. One might be 9.9, another 9.8, another 9.7, another 9.6, another 9.5, another 9.4. How long to rank each variation with no mistakes? Well, we know from MKX, that in many cases it did take months for a character to "turn out" to be a lot stronger than people initially thought.

Now let's make it 25 characters with 10 abilities each, for a total of 720 possible variations each. That's 18,000 unique character+variations total. How long to rank each variation with no mistakes? One decimal isn't going to be enough to distinguish between them anymore, we're going to need two or three.

Obvious conclusion is obvious. The more options you give players, the more "good enough" possibilities you create, the longer it takes them to even figure out what the "good enough" possibilities are.

 

I could write a small essay on why custom variations should be the competitive standard, and a few reasons why presets are actually a bad idea.

But my favorite takeaway from this clip is when Daanish Syed, senior UI artist for NRS, pops into the chat and literally says that designing a UI to conveniently make variations at the select screen is the easiest part of this debate.

 

I could write a small essay on why custom variations should be the competitive standard, and a few reasons why presets are actually a bad idea.

But my favorite takeaway from this clip is when Daanish Syed, senior UI artist for NRS, pops into the chat and literally says that designing a UI to conveniently make variations at the select screen is the easiest part of this debate.

And Mustard missed the second comment and didn't ask the obvious follow up Q's.

 

• What if the preset with Misery Blade has crap specials with it making it lackluster?
• What if this removes player individuality?
• What if like mustard said only one variation is viable (Gutted/Misery Blade)?
• What if only having two variations makes the characters easier to counter pick being limited with moves?
• What if a character has bad matchups on both variations?
• Like mustard said: what if presets discourage new players from becoming competitive?
• What if your favorite character doesn't fit your style with only two variations?
• What if preset variations make the game boring and stale quick because it's the same shit over and over?
• This could make characters easier to pick up for non mains allowing counter picking meta.

1 / and what if it doesn't?
2 / In the same way that MKX did? (it didn't BTW)
3 / And that would be different to everyone picking Misery Blade/Gutted in every custom loadout anyway, how?
4 / pick a different character maybe? Even with all the custom moves doesn't mean you can turn a 8-2 matchup into a 5-5 with the change of 1 or 2 custom moves.
8 / I can't see that happening. How many MoS Raiden players (or other 3rd tier variations) did you see in MKX? It wasn't a strong variation so it wasn't used. Same will happen in MK11, you won't see non-optimal loadouts in tournament play much at all. Maybe at the start when people are still feeling out the game, but over time there WILL be a defined "best" variation which everyone that wants to win will use.

There's no denying that it does take away some creativity from the player, but ultimately it doesn't change the end point which is a defined variation, it's just that it might not be the variation that everyone wanted.

That said, i hope they do come good on what they said and customs are made viable in ranked/tournament in time, if nothing else so people can play and enjoy the game instead of debating on why/why not it could/couldn't be done.

 

If there were ever any arguments to be made that we're disappointing ourselves instead of being disappointed by NRS, they're definitely gone after the 2 variation+"we're looking into it" Kombat Kast. 2 variations, dude. This is a big deal.

Not everyone wants custom variation