Playing to win, Discussion Thread

[Krayzie]

Playing to Win, Part 1

Playing to Win, Part 2: Mailbag

Playing to Win, Part 3: Not Playing to Win

Yomi Layer 3: Knowing the Mind of the Opponent

Any questions or feelings you guys might have got from these articles can be discussed here.

The point of this forum and these articles I have posted here today, are to create a better competitive environment within the community. To understand high level gaming, to create a higher value in competition, whether it be for tournament play, or the thrill of it all. I cant fathom the feeling you get from competing at the highest level, but I love it.

I understand a lot of you want to improve your game, some of you might have even mastered combos, yet, when it comes down to playing the game and winning, you fail. This has plenty to do with the way you think, react and execute after critical thinking. Using an example from a familar game, I will say: You can learn Jokers combo on MKvsDC, but if you cant catch me, how can you use it? You have the tools, but do you have the skillful thought to use it on me? And when you do, do you understand the circumstances of using it? A good eye always catches life bars and meter management to their advantages. Can you do this? or better yet, are you ready to start doing this?

Basic mental psychology used in games is easy to understand. But some people have mental barriers, and are renounced as "Scrubs." Hopefully with these guides, you guys understand this subject a little better. Until next time, have fun reading these kiddos!

P.S, I highly recommend that you guys read, Sirlins "Playing to Win Example: Richard Hatch on Survivor." Very interesting and fun to read.

 

[ViciousShogun]

If you follow this book down to the punctuation, it will help your game advance by lightyears.

 

[Dark_Rob]

I actually had an argument with a friend last night during the UFC's Randy Couture vs Brandon "the truth" Vera match that directly related to the very things Sirlin talks about in "Playing to Win". He was complaining that this fight was "boring" because Randy just kept clinching and putting Vera up against the cage.
I pointed out that while its certainly not the most exciting match to watch as a spectator, It isnt Randy's job in there to be exciting. Its his job to win. Now it was clear from the opening bell that Vera had a significant advantage in the striking game and it was clear that Randy couldnt hang in that regard.
But Randy has been "playing this game" for a long time. He knows what it takes to win and he adopted the stradegy that most maximized his chances of winning.
My friend agreed but still said it was a "cheap" win. I honestly glared at him and called him a scrub lol.
I said "did Randy do anything illegal?" He said no. I said "and you agree clinching up against the fence to nullify Vera's striking was the best stradegy for Randy?" Again he agreed.
Finally I said "So how is it a cheap win?" He said I was twisting his words just to make my point. I told him,"No, your words needed no twisting, because that whole line of thinking was nonsense." The argument kind of died there.

I will say its very hard to make a scrub see outside they're silly line of reasoning. I dont understand why though. From the moment Bone first linked me to "Playing to Win" it made the most sense to me.

 

[ViciousShogun]

I actually had an argument with a friend last night during the UFC's Randy Couture vs Brandon "the truth" Vera match that directly related to the very things Sirlin talks about in "Playing to Win". He was complaining that this fight was "boring" because Randy just kept clinching and putting Vera up against the cage.
I pointed out that while its certainly not the most exciting match to watch as a spectator, It isnt Randy's job in there to be exciting. Its his job to win. Now it was clear from the opening bell that Vera had a significant advantage in the striking game and it was clear that Randy couldnt hang in that regard.
But Randy has been "playing this game" for a long time. He knows what it takes to win and he adopted the stradegy that most maximized his chances of winning.
My friend agreed but still said it was a "cheap" win. I honestly glared at him and called him a scrub lol.
I said "did Randy do anything illegal?" He said no. I said "and you agree clinching up against the fence to nullify Vera's striking was the best stradegy for Randy?" Again he agreed.
Finally I said "So how is it a cheap win?" He said I was twisting his words just to make my point. I told him,"No, your words needed no twisting, because that whole line of thinking was nonsense." The argument kind of died there.

I will say its very hard to make a scrub see outside they're silly line of reasoning. I dont understand why though. From the moment Bone first linked me to "Playing to Win" it made the most sense to me.

I disagree with this example, because for 1, i feel Brandon Vera won the fight, and 2, when you leave it into the judges hands, anything can happen, look @ the machida/shogun fight, shogun clearly won that fight and they gave it to machida.

let me break it down for you.

As far as control of the tempo of the match, Randy dominated this aspect, most of his time was spent pushing vera against the fence, but also note that brandon stuffed many sweeps and takedowns and neutralized randys greco-roman skills with his own (vera is a greco olympic substitue himself by the way). When they were seperated in the first round, randy was able to get back in and press vera up against the cage again, but honestly wasnt working much to improve his position or cause any damage. I will also add that when you are seperated, that means that the person who achieved the position of domination was not doing anything to improve the position or to cause damage to their opponent, they were basically sleeping on their opponent, in fighting games, that is acceptable, in MMA, that is not. Regardless, winner of round 1 imo - Randy Couture

In the second round, Randy again pressed vera against the fence with his greco skills, however, now when vera was seperated, he capitalized very hardcore and delivered devestating body kicks that crumpled randy not only once but twice. Vera should of capitalized on both, but did not, randy again pressed vera up against the fence and slept on him once more.
Winner of round 2- Brandon Vera

In the third round, randy once again pressed vera against the fence, and started opening up with his dirty boxing and scoring clinch shots, however, from what i seen, brandon actually got the better of these exchanges and landed more shots than randy. Randy threw more, but connected on less, add this in with brandons takedown on randy in this round and other than randys few little flurries brandon is winning that round, the last few seconds seen brandon beating randy in the stand up once more.
Winner of round 3- Brandon Vera

Now see how this is an example of opinion, im sure many people seen the fight my way, and seen the fight in the favor of couture, MMA is not comparable to fighting games or really yomi, because of the 3rd party factor of the judges, which I believe is illegal in fighting games (notice the 3rd party section of the article) and another interesting point is in fighting games, if it goes to judgement like in 3s, you cant win like that, you have to restart the game and play the round over.

as for the total picture, I understand what you are saying about the playing to win aspect, but again that sport is not comparable to competitive fighting games, their rules and our rules are completely different.

 

[Darkhood88]

Is it "playing to win" if I choose not to use the top 3 fighters in a game? I like to think that I use that mentality, but Is it really if I wanna use say Sub-Zero instead of Gl, Flash, Kahn, or Raiden?

 

[Dark_Rob]

I disagree with this example, because for 1, i feel Brandon Vera won the fight, and 2, when you leave it into the judges hands, anything can happen, look @ the machida/shogun fight, shogun clearly won that fight and they gave it to machida.

let me break it down for you.

As far as control of the tempo of the match, Randy dominated this aspect, most of his time was spent pushing vera against the fence, but also note that brandon stuffed many sweeps and takedowns and neutralized randys greco-roman skills with his own (vera is a greco olympic substitue himself by the way). When they were seperated in the first round, randy was able to get back in and press vera up against the cage again, but honestly wasnt working much to improve his position or cause any damage. I will also add that when you are seperated, that means that the person who achieved the position of domination was not doing anything to improve the position or to cause damage to their opponent, they were basically sleeping on their opponent, in fighting games, that is acceptable, in MMA, that is not. Regardless, winner of round 1 imo - Randy Couture

In the second round, Randy again pressed vera against the fence with his greco skills, however, now when vera was seperated, he capitalized very hardcore and delivered devestating body kicks that crumpled randy not only once but twice. Vera should of capitalized on both, but did not, randy again pressed vera up against the fence and slept on him once more.
Winner of round 2- Brandon Vera

In the third round, randy once again pressed vera against the fence, and started opening up with his dirty boxing and scoring clinch shots, however, from what i seen, brandon actually got the better of these exchanges and landed more shots than randy. Randy threw more, but connected on less, add this in with brandons takedown on randy in this round and other than randys few little flurries brandon is winning that round, the last few seconds seen brandon beating randy in the stand up once more.
Winner of round 3- Brandon Vera

Now see how this is an example of opinion, im sure many people seen the fight my way, and seen the fight in the favor of couture, MMA is not comparable to fighting games or really yomi, because of the 3rd party factor of the judges, which I believe is illegal in fighting games (notice the 3rd party section of the article) and another interesting point is in fighting games, if it goes to judgement like in 3s, you cant win like that, you have to restart the game and play the round over.

as for the total picture, I understand what you are saying about the playing to win aspect, but again that sport is not comparable to competitive fighting games, their rules and our rules are completely different.

Sho I actually agree with you. I to believe Vera won the fight. BUT the point I was trying to make was that Randy was using the right stradegy for him that maximized his chances of winning, regardless of how "boring" it may have been. My friends scrub view of "the cheap win" idea is what I took issue with, I never really said how I felt about the decision in my first post because I was more talking about the fact it was Randy's job to win in there, not "win in a flashy or exciting way."
For the record I am not the least bit surprised the judges awarded the fight to Randy, not because I think Randy won but because it further goes to show how completely inadequate the UFC's scoring system is. Octagon control is apparently a big issue with the judges, but as I said in my post on MKU in the thead about shogun vs. machida, Octagon control is such a vague concept. The scoring system in the UFC needs alot of work.

 

[ViciousShogun]

Sho I actually agree with you. I to believe Vera won the fight. BUT the point I was trying to make was that Randy was using the right stradegy for him that maximized his chances of winning, regardless of how "boring" it may have been. My friends scrub view of "the cheap win" idea is what I took issue with, I never really said how I felt about the decision in my first post because I was more talking about the fact it was Randy's job to win in there, not "win in a flashy or exciting way."
For the record I am not the least bit surprised the judges awarded the fight to Randy, not because I think Randy won but because it further goes to show how completely inadequate the UFC's scoring system is. Octagon control is apparently a big issue with the judges, but as I said in my post on MKU in the thead about shogun vs. machida, Octagon control is such a vague concept. The scoring system in the UFC needs alot of work.

yes, I understand your point you are conveying and its very good, but all together MMA doesnt work well with the yomi of fighting games, the rules are different.

 

[Juggs]

Is it "playing to win" if I choose not to use the top 3 fighters in a game? I like to think that I use that mentality, but Is it really if I wanna use say Sub-Zero instead of Gl, Flash, Kahn, or Raiden?

You can use whomever you want. However, if you say it's "bad" or "it doesn't take skill" for people to use a certain character or only one character (that's not banned), then that's being a scrub, and not playing to win.

 

[Darkhood88]

Thanks Juggs. I don't care who anybody picks. My feeling behind it is I should be able to beat whoever they pick with my top 2 fighters.

 

[Btt Ownge Mble]

Thanks Juggs. I don't care who anybody picks. My feeling behind it is I should be able to beat whoever they pick with my top 2 fighters.

Yup. What playing to win pretty much boils down to, to me anyway, is:

You play the way you want to play, you let the opponent play the way he wants to play, and the person with the best strategy and execution wins.

 

[Tim Static]

 

[SZSR]

I've always wondered what Elite players do to calm down before the fight is over.

I should pose this as a question. What do you do if you are overly emotional about a game?

Say you're doing well in a game and you're ahead, since you're ahead now you feel all cocky because now you can just coast, leaving your opponent the advantage to wipe the floor with you because you're not playing seriously.

Or maybe you're behind and you get really angry about the game, and that throws off your entire concentration, leaving you to also get beat down.

What would an Elite player do in a situation like this to let them to regain their composure and not let their emotions get the better of them?

 

[Juggs]

I've always wondered what Elite players do to calm down before the fight is over.

I should pose this as a question. What do you do if you are overly emotional about a game?

Say you're doing well in a game and you're ahead, since you're ahead now you feel all cocky because now you can just coast, leaving your opponent the advantage to wipe the floor with you because you're not playing seriously.

Or maybe you're behind and you get really angry about the game, and that throws off your entire concentration, leaving you to also get beat down.

What would an Elite player do in a situation like this to let them to regain their composure and not let their emotions get the better of them?

You have to learn to not let your emotions effect your play. This is one of the hardest things about being a great player. Take Daigo for an example. If you ever have seen him play, he is virtually "emotionless". He's extremely calm, and you don't see his facial expression even change until the match is over.

It's just something you have to learn to overcome.

 

[STORMS]

I've always wondered what Elite players do to calm down before the fight is over.

I should pose this as a question. What do you do if you are overly emotional about a game?

Say you're doing well in a game and you're ahead, since you're ahead now you feel all cocky because now you can just coast, leaving your opponent the advantage to wipe the floor with you because you're not playing seriously.

Or maybe you're behind and you get really angry about the game, and that throws off your entire concentration, leaving you to also get beat down.

What would an Elite player do in a situation like this to let them to regain their composure and not let their emotions get the better of them?

i am not an elite player, but i have learned my many mistakes. 9.95 said to me awhile back not to get desperate when losing, instead, relax and think. put yourself in as if you're still in the beginning of the fight trying to get the first hit;play smart. all this isn't exactly what he said but it helped. i was the kind of person to get pissed if i kept losing....but reallyit was my own fault for losing because i wanted a free win, i didn't want to work for it.

anyway, lol... like i said i am no elite player but i have admitted myself being a "scrub" and am working to improve my game with the help of the community... and so far, i am very pleased.

 

[SZSR]

Yeah, that's a good idea. Think of everyone round like trying to get the first hit.
I'm guessing it was a big block for you guys?

 

[Krayzie]

I've always wondered what Elite players do to calm down before the fight is over.

I should pose this as a question. What do you do if you are overly emotional about a game?

Say you're doing well in a game and you're ahead, since you're ahead now you feel all cocky because now you can just coast, leaving your opponent the advantage to wipe the floor with you because you're not playing seriously.

Or maybe you're behind and you get really angry about the game, and that throws off your entire concentration, leaving you to also get beat down.

What would an Elite player do in a situation like this to let them to regain their composure and not let their emotions get the better of them?

Its good to be confident, but never overconfident.

When you are confident, you have this sense of relaxation during a match, but if you go way over your head, you lose complete fear of dangerous circumstances to the point where you become sloppy. You should always remember to remain conscious of the match at play, don't let your mind wander, and keep in mind each match should be treated like a single game, not the first game... Basically a match you will never get back again.

Yeah, that's a good idea. Think of everyone round like trying to get the first hit.
I'm guessing it was a big block for you guys?

You actually have to understand, the second round will be completely different, as your opponent might have read some patterns, and has planned his second strike. Treat each match as a single match you will never get back, but understand and remember everything you learned from the previous match, as adapting is very important.

 

[Check]

Its good to be confident, but never overconfident.

When you are confident, you have this sense of relaxation during a match, but if you go way over your head, you lose complete fear of dangerous circumstances to the point where you become sloppy. You should always remember to remain conscious of the match at play, don't let your mind wander, and keep in mind each match should be treated like a single game, not the first game... Basically a match you will never get back again.



You actually have to understand, the second round will be completely different, as your opponent might have read some patterns, and has planned his second strike. Treat each match as a single match you will never get back, but understand and remember everything you learned from the previous match, as adapting is very important.

Great post, Glen. I dont see a thanks button, but thanks for posting it dude.

 

[STORMS]

Great post, Glen. I dont see a thanks button, but thanks for posting it dude.

thanks system coming soon.

great post, bone.

hi, check!

 

[Check]

Thanks storms, i owe ya one.

Hi too

Metroid Prime Trilogy in 480p is the shit!!!!!!

 

[Juggs]

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

You play to win the game!

You don't play it to play it!

 

[STORMS]

You play to win the game!

You don't play it to play it!

ONLY when you do this does the game become that much more involved.

Get some good mind games going and you'll have some great matches... just don't break your controller if you do lose.

[bubble]$60 loss[/bubble]

 

[Gurimmjaw]

Playing to Win, Part 1

Playing to Win, Part 2: Mailbag

Playing to Win, Part 3: Not Playing to Win

Yomi Layer 3: Knowing the Mind of the Opponent

Any questions or feelings you guys might have got from these articles can be discussed here.

The point of this forum and these articles I have posted here today, are to create a better competitive environment within the community. To understand high level gaming, to create a higher value in competition, whether it be for tournament play, or the thrill of it all. I cant fathom the feeling you get from competing at the highest level, but I love it.

I understand a lot of you want to improve your game, some of you might have even mastered combos, yet, when it comes down to playing the game and winning, you fail. This has plenty to do with the way you think, react and execute after critical thinking. Using an example from a familar game, I will say: You can learn Jokers combo on MKvsDC, but if you cant catch me, how can you use it? You have the tools, but do you have the skillful thought to use it on me? And when you do, do you understand the circumstances of using it? A good eye always catches life bars and meter management to their advantages. Can you do this? or better yet, are you ready to start doing this?

Basic mental psychology used in games is easy to understand. But some people have mental barriers, and are renounced as "Scrubs." Hopefully with these guides, you guys understand this subject a little better. Until next time, have fun reading these kiddos!

P.S, I highly recommend that you guys read, Sirlins "Playing to Win Example: Richard Hatch on Survivor." Very interesting and fun to read.

when I click on Yomi Layer 3 link it says "404 Not Found"

 

[Krayzie]

when I click on Yomi Layer 3 link it says "404 Not Found"

Check again.