Question - Mileena Pick your poison (asking for changes)

[ZeroEffect]

People you can't compare JUST the frames of moves to other characters. It doesn't matter if a character has a faster safer overhead than you cause your characters are different, other characters don't have the tools mileena does.

She has already been adjusted. Let the game play out a bit before crying for more buffs your character is fine!

Apparently there's no difference between honest discussion and crying. Such is TYM these days.

 

[JDE]

This is actually a good discussion. No one is really complaining here, very healthy. I understand where everyone is coming from on all ends. Other tan me feeling like she's not bad, my only argument is that if you're going to ask for something, be reasonable. That's it. It's not about being stingy or anything of that nature. Simply think about what price (trade off) that you're willing to give to have a different move & "this motherfucker got some buffs, where's ours?". Almost every post I've seen when discussing has been "give me X move because this guy has it" when every character is meant to have something unique about them in terms of gameplay.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Also to whoever mentioned it, Mileena's F1 should NOT be overhead. I would go as far as to say that'd be near broken.
If it was overhead, the opponent has no option on hard KNDs besides guess or X-Ray. F1 stuffs wakeup attacks, outlasts delayed wakeup, and forces stand block. Then if you stand you get F4 into combo or just get free chip with F1 string.

Basically, Mileena would always have a legit 50/50 on wakeup that couldn't be armored out of by anyone with less than 2 hits of armor. Or they could backdash, but that's still a win since they lose stamina and you are safe anyways.

 

[ZeroEffect]

For the sake of discussion, here are my ideal Mileena changes. No idea if NRS will do any of this.

All Variations
- d1: Increased hitbox to prevent whiffing issues in close. (Now serves as an useful mid check when Piercing B1 isn't available)
- f1,2: Increased hitbox on string to prevent whiffing on certain characters (Can't be armor punished randomly anymore... vs Raiden etc)
- Roll: Fixed issue where Roll would knock the opponent too far away to combo properly on hit.
- (Air) Sai Blast: Recovery on hit reduced to allow for followup combos. (Can follow up with Dash into Roll or Run into f2,3~Roll)
- b4 (Sweep): comes out a few frames faster. (Sweep is a much better whiff punish and easier combo ender to set up her strong oki game)
- 3: first hit is no longer special cancellable. (No one was really using this anyway)
- 3: no longer causes Hard KND. (Opponent can tech roll back on Hit)
- 3: first hit now hits Overhead. (Still loses to delayed wakeup, so not nearly as braindead as F1 being overhead)

Ravenous:
- Low Pounce: Fixed issue with Low Pounce not connecting vs crouching opponents during blockstrings. (Yes, you have EN Roll, but Low Pounce whiffing is still a problem.)

Piercing:
- Nothing. (Piercing specific moves all seem fine to me.)

Ethereal:
- Fade: All 3 Fades are now invincible to Throws while hidden.
- Fade: All 3 Fades' startup frames reduced. (Can be used as a viable anti-zoning & mixup tool)
- EN Fade: hides Mileena almost immediately.
- EN Fade: CAN still be thrown when hidden (Amazing escape/wakeup tool now, but has the drawback of being thrown if predicted)

 

[Sami]

Piercing:
- Nothing. (Piercing specific moves all seem fine to me.)

I'm going to say it... the hitbox on the 2 of B12 could do with being extended upwards a bit higher to prevent quite so many dropped combos when using the B12~1+3 ender. This is more a quality of life change than anything though.

 

[ZeroEffect]

I'm going to say it... the hitbox on the 2 of B12 could do with being extended upwards a bit higher to prevent quite so many dropped combos when using the B12~1+3 ender. This is more a quality of life change than anything though.

It does drop sometimes, but it might just depend on the combo you're doing. It seems to work fine after Roll~B3,4~air sai. Most times I really don't use that ender over 21U4, B21,2+4, or sweep, personally.

 

[Flow]

For the sake of discussion, here are my ideal Mileena changes. No idea if NRS will do any of this.

All Variations
- d1: Increased hitbox to prevent whiffing issues in close. (Now serves as an useful mid check when Piercing B1 isn't available)
- f1,2: Increased hitbox on string to prevent whiffing on certain characters (Can't be armor punished randomly anymore... vs Raiden etc)
- Roll: Fixed issue where Roll would knock the opponent too far away to combo properly on hit.
- (Air) Sai Blast: Recovery on hit reduced to allow for followup combos. (Can follow up with Dash into Roll or Run into f2,3~Roll)
- b4 (Sweep): comes out a few frames faster. (Sweep is a much better whiff punish and easier combo ender to set up her strong oki game)
- 3: no longer special cancellable after the first hit. (No one was really using this anyway)
- 3: no longer causes Hard KND. (Opponent can tech roll back on Hit)
- 3: now hits Overhead on first hit. (Still loses to delayed wakeup, so not nearly as braindead as F1 being overhead)

Ravenous:
- Low Pounce: Fixed issue with Low Pounce not connecting vs crouching opponents during blockstrings. (Yes, you have EN Roll, but Low Pounce whiffing is still a problem.)

Piercing:
- Nothing. (Piercing specific moves all seem fine to me.)

Ethereal:
- Fade: All 3 Fades are now invincible to Throws while hidden.
- Fade: All 3 Fades' startup frames reduced. (Can be used as a viable anti-zoning & mixup tool)
- EN Fade: hides Mileena almost immediately.
- EN Fade: CAN still be thrown when hidden (Amazing escape/wakeup tool now, but has the drawback of being thrown if predicted)

I approve of this. But since Piercing is a weapon-based variation, I wouldn't mind a better NJP/D2 (more range like in Cryomancer). A slightly faster back dash would be nice as well. (With all these changes she would probably become high tier.)

 

[ZeroEffect]

I approve of this. But since Piercing is a weapon-based variation, I wouldn't mind a better NJP/D2 (more range like in Cryomancer). A slightly faster back dash would be nice as well. (With all these changes she would probably become high tier.)

Aesthetically, it makes sense. But I think her uppercut and NJP are good enough for me. Her Uppercut isn't the *best* anti-air, but it's still really fast and has decent forward reach. The backdash distance/speed might be up for debate though.

I think if she were to get all the changes I listed, (half of which are fixes), she'd be extremely solid. Not sure about her tier, but she'd definitely be ready to compete with everyone.

 

[llxPeeKABooxll]

I approve of this. But since Piercing is a weapon-based variation, I wouldn't mind a better NJP/D2 (more range like in Cryomancer). A slightly faster back dash would be nice as well. (With all these changes she would probably become high tier.)

I thought NJP already got an increased hitbox in Piercing. Any time I would play a different variation I would whiff my NJPs left and right cause it made such a huge difference from Piercing. And honestly I think Mileena could make it as a character without having a 14 frame comboable overhead that leads to 30%. Giving her that basically invalidates 1/3 of Ex rolls uses and makes her like the rest of the cast. Her D2 would be cool looking if it had a slightly better vertical hitbox and had a uppercut sai animation, but it's already pretty good in its own right, having a pretty beefy hitbox and fast start-up.

 

[ZeroEffect]

And honestly I think Mileena could make it as a character without having a 14 frame comboable overhead that leads to 30%. Giving her that basically invalidates 1/3 of Ex rolls uses and makes her like the rest of the cast.

What 14f comboable overhead?

 

[Audit]

I haven't kept up with Sub-Zero enough to see what the complaints are now, tbh. And sure, Kenshi may have needed the buffs. Maybe Jacqui's fixes were warranted too.

Hmm, I dunno... maybe my points weren't coming across well enough. In my opinion, Mileena doesn't really need too many changes to be a "complete" character, but she might need them to be a "stronger" one down the road.

Anyway, maybe this is it and she remains untouched from here on out. I mean, we all could've said "fuck it" and switched without posting anything. But it's *because* I enjoy using Mileena, that I'm even discussing these things at all.

And yeah, don't worry about anyone here jumping on you if you were to switch. You gotta do you.

I like that you make the distinction between complete and good. Most don't here on TYM it seems and just shout #buff!. I don't play Mileena, but I play a against a ton of them and she suffers from Ryu syndrome. She's a solid character, but I've been playing against the Mileena matchup since 1993, and it just hasn't changed that much. The blueprint for beating her is basically the same, so Mileena players probably struggle more because of that fact.

 

[llxPeeKABooxll]

What 14f comboable overhead?

Wasn't that your suggested buff? To make standing 3 an overhead on the first hit, and it still being cancellable on the first hit. Unless you meant standing 3 shouldn't be special cancellable on the first hit and not after.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Wasn't that your suggested buff? To make standing 3 an overhead on the first hit, and it still being cancellable on the first hit. Unless you meant standing 3 shouldn't be special cancellable on the first hit and not after.

Nope. I said...

- 3: no longer special cancellable after the first hit. (No one was really using this anyway)
- 3: no longer causes Hard KND. (Opponent can tech roll back on Hit)
- 3: now hits Overhead on first hit. (Still loses to delayed wakeup, so not nearly as braindead as F1 being overhead)

No combo, no hard KND. Just a back pocket mixup tool in the neutral/corner game. Still needs to risk EX Roll for any combo damage.

Edit: Maybe I should edit it so it reads easier

 

[llxPeeKABooxll]

Nope. I said...

No combo, no hard KND. Just a back pocket mixup tool in the neutral/corner game. Still needs to risk EX Roll for any combo damage.

I guess I just got tripped up on this part:

- 3: no longer special cancellable after the first hit. (No one was really using this anyway)

Standing 3 isn't cancellable after the first hit because the second hits the hard knockdown hit. But it just being a plain overhead that leads into a soft knockdown sounds ok.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Standing 3 isn't cancellable after the first hit because the second hits the hard knockdown hit. But it just being a plain overhead that leads into a soft knockdown sounds ok.

I fixed it. Now it says...

- 3: first hit is no longer special cancellable.
- 3: no longer causes Hard KND.
- 3: first hit now hits Overhead.

 

[llxPeeKABooxll]

Here's suggested changes for Mileena if she were to stay without a safe,reliable 50/50.

Base Mileena:

D1 – up close hitbox whiffing issues fixed

F1,2 – up close hitbox whiffing issues fixed

B3 – hitstun made more lenient after a roll xx B3 xx tele-kick

Tele-Kick – 2 frames cut from start-up across the board (for air and ex versions too)

Air Sai – made comboable by decreased recovery on hit or by special cancellability on hit

F2 – 2 frames cut from start-up

F4 – 3 frames cut from start up

Back dash – start-up decreased and travels slightly farther

Ethereal Mileena:

Fade - changed from 22 frames start up to 18, changed from 21 frames recovery to 18

Vanish – 12 frames on start-up, 18 frames on recovery, throw invincible

Sai – Made -7 instead of -11 on block

Hopscotch – Mileena throws a low sai at the opponent’s feet on hit for 6% damage and then returns to Mileena, on whiff it plants a sai to the ground and the sai can be summoned back to Mileena as a fast low. Same animation as forward fade but with a hitbox on the sai. (start-up: 15f, recovery: 20f, +5 on hit and -20 on block)(controls: B,F,3)

Summon – summons Mileena’s whiffed Hopscotch back to her. (start-up: 5f, recovery: 15f, 0 on hit and -5 on block.) (controls: F,B,3)

Cold Feet – Ex version of Hopscotch. Holds opponent to the ground for a combo.(start-up: 15f, recovery: 25f, +60 frames on hit and -30 on block.

Ravenous Mileena:

B1,2.1+3 (Quick Taste) – Third hit of this string gets an increased hitbox to allow easier use in combos.

Low Pounce – hitbox increased

Piercing Mileena:

No change.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Base Mileena:

D1 – up close hitbox whiffing issues fixed

F1,2 – up close hitbox whiffing issues fixed

B3 – hitstun made more lenient after a roll xx B3 xx tele-kick

Tele-Kick – 2 frames cut from start-up across the board (for air and ex versions too): Is her teleport faster or slow than scorpion/ermac/takeda? I think it would be balanced if telekick start-up is the same as scorpion's.

Air Sai – made comboable by decreased recovery on hit or by special cancellability on hit: this is what i need. I anti air with instant air sai a lot but always fail to follow with combos.

F2 – 2 frames cut from start-up

F4 – 3 frames cut from start up
Those normals are fine. If anything needs faster start up, it's F3

Back dash – start-up decreased and travels slightly farther


Ravenous Mileena:

B1,2.1+3 (Quick Taste) – Third hit of this string gets an increased hitbox to allow easier use in combos: I never use this ender. Using B12 low pounce is easier to hit, build more meter and mileena has an option to swap position or not

Low Pounce – hitbox increased: I love this. I can't understand why low pounce has such stupid small range and misses most of the time.

Piercing Mileena:


The biggest thing she needs: NRS must fix the bug when roll on hit leaves opponent too far away from her to neutral jump punch or B3 (especially anti air roll)

 

[TheGabStandard]

The biggest thing she needs: NRS must fix the bug when roll on hit leaves opponent too far away from her to neutral jump punch or B3 (especially anti air roll)

That is annoying but could be intentional, I doubt it but you never know. At the moment the easiest thing to do if that happens is jk xx air sai xx run cancel b12_1+3, dd2. That still gets you around 25%. Probably can get more damage from those situations if explored.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Ethereal Mileena:

Fade - changed from 22 frames start up to 18, changed from 21 frames recovery to 18

Vanish – 12 frames on start-up, 18 frames on recovery, throw invincible

Sai – Made -7 instead of -11 on block

Hopscotch – Mileena throws a low sai at the opponent’s feet on hit for 6% damage and then returns to Mileena, on whiff it plants a sai to the ground and the sai can be summoned back to Mileena as a fast low. Same animation as forward fade but with a hitbox on the sai. (start-up: 15f, recovery: 20f, +5 on hit and -20 on block)(controls: B,F,3)

Summon – summons Mileena’s whiffed Hopscotch back to her. (start-up: 5f, recovery: 15f, 0 on hit and -5 on block.) (controls: F,B,3)

Cold Feet – Ex version of Hopscotch. Holds opponent to the ground for a combo.(start-up: 15f, recovery: 25f, +60 frames on hit and -30 on block.

Ravenous Mileena:

B1,2.1+3 (Quick Taste) – Third hit of this string gets an increased hitbox to allow easier use in combos.

Low Pounce – hitbox increased

Piercing Mileena:

No change.

Eh, I dunno about giving her new moves. NRS has added moves in the past, but I think at this point it's better to focus on improving the tools she has.

As for Fade, is it really 22f startup? Wow. If that's the case, make that shit 12f and EN Fade like 4f. EN Fade should still be able to be grabbed as a result of the 4f startup. But Reg. Fade shouldn't be throwable and at 12f it might make it a better teleport overall.

Seems we're in agreement about air sai, d1, f12, and low pounce though. And I wouldn't mind a faster Telekick startup either.

 

[llxPeeKABooxll]

Tele-Kick – 2 frames cut from start-up across the board (for air and ex versions too): Is her teleport faster or slow than scorpion/ermac/takeda? I think it would be balanced if telekick start-up is the same as scorpion's.

The biggest thing she needs: NRS must fix the bug when roll on hit leaves opponent too far away from her to neutral jump punch or B3 (especially anti air roll)

Her tele-kick is either faster or on par with Scorpion's , but I think the recovery is slightly worse which doesn't make it as spamable as his. Either way her tele-kick wouldn't hurt to be faster considering how much of a risk it is, making it less of a hard read would be nice.

How often does the roll thing happen? I would get this every so often but I always thought it was because I rolled and caught them from like max distance. Most of the time I was able to adjust the space for a Njp but not for B3.

 

[llxPeeKABooxll]

Eh, I dunno about giving her new moves. NRS has added moves in the past, but I think at this point it's better to focus on improving the tools she has.

As for Fade, is it really 22f startup? Wow. If that's the case, make that shit 12f and EN Fade like 4f. EN Fade should still be able to be grabbed as a result of the 4f startup. But Reg. Fade shouldn't be throwable and at 12f it might make it a better teleport overall.

Seems we're in agreement about air sai, d1, f12, and low pounce though. And I wouldn't mind a faster Telekick startup either.

I don't know if it really is 22 frames, I'm just going with the in game frame data. It's prob not accurate though cause it says Vanish(ex Fade) is 12 frames start-up. Idk I thought it would be too good to make the reg teleport throw invulnerable. But I also suggested the new move as a way to expand Mileena's zoning options in Ethereal because I feel she should be playing that kind of keepaway playstyle. I guess maybe instead of that they could add low sai to the variation with +5 adavantage on hit and still punishable on block.

For sure ethereal teles,comboable air sai, normal's hitbox issues, and low pounce are priorities though. Tele-kick should get that speed buff too tbh but it's ok, at the very least better tracking.

 

[YoloRoll1stHit]

Her tele-kick is either faster or on par with Scorpion's , but I think the recovery is slightly worse which doesn't make it as spamable as his. Either way her tele-kick wouldn't hurt to be faster considering how much of a risk it is, making it less of a hard read would be nice.

How often does the roll thing happen? I would get this every so often but I always thought it was because I rolled and caught them from like max distance. Most of the time I was able to adjust the space for a Njp but not for B3.

Mostly when anti air with roll. U can go to practice mode, set the AI the jump forward and anti air with roll.