Question - Mileena Pick your poison (asking for changes)

[Endding]

Mileenas fine, please don't turn into one of 'those' communities.

Fix ethereal and we good.

 

[Sami]

Warning: long post from an amateur scrub ahead...

F3 is currently a great theoretical move and a useless practical one. It might be safe on block but due to the very long start-up it can either be punished before the hit, blocked or back-dashed by anyone. It is an overhead and fails as a mix-up tool with her great and quick low normals for the same reasons. It provides no interesting properties (she seems to be off the ground for a small part of the move but that is it), no mind-games or gimmicks and no huge frame advantage.

First issue: the speed. This is simple - make it quicker. I'm not talking about making it a 10 frame overhead, but something in the region of 20 frames of start-up could see it get some use with the rest of the changes below. Regardless of what other changes get made 30+ frames for a normal is ridiculous.

Second issue: mix-up tools. Mileena has a universal mix-ups using low normals/low hits in strings and Enhanced Roll. Considering that a) this mix-up is usually very unsafe and b) requires meter, I personally have no issues with this kind of 50/50 in the game. Ravenous can make the low option safe if you opt to go for far less damage if the move hits and there's no making Enhanced Roll safe. In addition, Ravenous also has a meterless mix-up using low normals/low hits in strings and Low Pounce (which functions as an overhead that wiffs on standing players). It is also very unsafe and doesn't lead to great damage.

Personally, I'm happy for Enhanced Roll and Low Pounce to be her only overhead-style options especially as the game patches seem to be very slowly nerfing safe mix-ups / extreme pressure / etc. My suggestion: make the move hit mid (the follow-up combo string as a low option which gives her an unsafe 50/50 with Enhanced Roll anyway).

Third issue: Lack of gimmicks. She does a fancy spin which has no interesting properties - no projectile evade, armour, will still generally be hit by low attacks, etc. My suggestion: make the move advance more and get her off the ground quicker and higher - something like a lunging forward spin kick that has a high profile (girl needs to tuck her leg in) so it can be used as a read against low pokes, a quick move to get over low projectiles, etc.

End Result: 20-25 frames where she's off the floor and avoiding low normals/projectiles almost instantly, hits mid, new spinning animation. Follow-up combo strings to remain the same. She now has moves that low-profile very well (roll, her low pokes) and now a move that "high-profiles" as well (the new f3). No new 50/50 gimmicks were introduced and the threat of a 50/50 in neutral remains exactly as it was before.

New Issues: This could potentially increase her combo damage as the new F3 would likely be usable mid-combo (she already does pretty good meterless damage). A fix for this is to increase the damage scaling of F3 against opponents already airbourne/juggled or have F3 splat the opponent to the ground (with no option to combo/special cancel the move afterwards) if it hits while the opponent is being juggled.


tl;dr:Remove F3 in its current form entirely and replace it with a new useful move that retains the combo strings the current F3 has.


Also, I'm fully aware that this will likely not happen :'(

 

[Law Hero]

I definitely think, like others have stated, that she's fine as a character.

That being said, I wonder if being "fine" will be good enough.

 

[JDE]

Warning: long post from an amateur scrub ahead...

F3 is currently a great theoretical move and a useless practical one. It might be safe on block but due to the very long start-up it can either be punished before the hit, blocked or back-dashed by anyone. It is an overhead and fails as a mix-up tool with her great and quick low normals for the same reasons. It provides no interesting properties (she seems to be off the ground for a small part of the move but that is it), no mind-games or gimmicks and no huge frame advantage.


Third issue: Lack of gimmicks. She does a fancy spin which has no interesting properties - no projectile evade, armour, will still generally be hit by low attacks, etc. My suggestion: make the move advance more and get her off the ground quicker and higher - something like a lunging forward spin kick that has a high profile (girl needs to tuck her leg in) so it can be used as a read against low pokes, a quick move to get over low projectiles, etc.

:'(

F3 isn't useless imo. You can use F3 to hop over pokes & low projectiles out in mid range, hitting them in the process. You just wouldn't use it upclose. Also, with the new update, she got another buff with 21U4. It's already an OS, but now foes cannot armor through the string.

For the 3rd part, I'm really not understanding what you're trying to say. She has armored attacks that will hit an opponent out. Ex Telekick doesn't armor, but Ex Roll does. She may not have a lot of attacks that can armor, but she has something. The spin can be used with strings. Yes, if an opponent reads, they can armor through it, but you have to make them respect some of her other options. Low using a string into a low or low sai so that you can use a mid or an overhead. Or even use a high , mid string & then use roll, forcing them to hit a button to launch them. Mileena has to take risks; this is the character that we play. You have to be willing to pay some kind of price.

I answered the 3rd part the best way I could. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Sami]

@JDE Sorry for the confusion! By "the spin" I was refering to the spinning/corkscrew animation of F3. It looks impressive but there's no low-attack evade frames in there or anything like that (you're relying on her actual hitbox which is dodgy at the best of times with Mileena).

My point is that I want F3 to be much better at hopping/punishing low attacks than it is now and I'm happy to lose it being an overhead and all the baggage that comes with it (i.e. 30+ start-up frames). Make it mid, a bit faster (both in start-up and the distance she travels) and get her off the ground as soon as possible to trigger some special frames that always ignore low attacks.

In the list of Mileena issues it's a very small one but it has the potential to be a really great move and give her more tools - she can lower her profile with low-starters and roll, and if F3 was altered then it could be the opposite of that instead where she gains the ability to ignore lows rather than highs and would probably become immune to a lot of throws during the animation.

I'd much rather Ethereal was fixed though :'(

 

[ZeroEffect]

I definitely think, like others have stated, that she's fine as a character.

That being said, I wonder if being "fine" will be good enough.

This is what I've been saying forever. Fine is not always the same as good. Fine means workable.
Just the way it is.

 

[ZeroEffect]

I think another big problem is this, it's easy to feel like you're being greedy when MIleena is surely, (but slowly), being buffed with each patch/hotfix. But then you see Kenshi's list and that he became almost a brand new character overnight. Hell even Jacqui got tremendous buffs, especially with her corner combo and shotgun restand damages.

Again, I agree with @JDE about how balance should work. I want to make that clear. But I guess that rule is not consistent across the cast. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm positive that a lot of us see that, and subconsciously go, "Wait a minute... if so-and-so can get all THIS, why stop at looking for a better D1 or F3? Why not aim HIGHER?"

 

[TheGabStandard]

I think another big problem is this, it's easy to feel like you're being greedy when MIleena is surely, (but slowly), being buffed with each patch/hotfix. But then you see Kenshi's list and that he became almost a brand new character overnight. Hell even Jacqui got tremendous buffs, especially with her corner combo and shotgun restand damages.

Again, I agree with @JDE about how balance should work. I want to make that clear. But I guess that rule is not consistent across the cast. I can't speak for everyone here, but I'm positive that a lot of us see that, and subconsciously go, "Wait a minute... if so-and-so can get all THIS, why stop at looking for a better D1 or F3? Why not aim HIGHER?"

I agree with this. I am all for balance and fairness and wish it was applied throughout the cast, but such is life. However, I am glad we haven't turned into any of the other character communities who have been crying for buffs or claiming their character is bottom 5. Instead it is work with what you have and improve the character by being as innovative as possible with the tool set.

 

[ZeroEffect]

I agree with this. I am all for balance and fairness and wish it was applied throughout the cast, but such is life. However, I am glad we haven't turned into any of the other character communities who have been crying for buffs or claiming their character is bottom 5. Instead it is work with what you have and improve the character by being as innovative as possible with the tool set.

True. But my argument is kind of why "those communities" even exist to begin with. Who doesn't want their character to be strong? I've been getting "stuck" with sub-par characters in every fighting game I've played. Either that, or they were good and got severely nerfed. (ie: Leixia in Soulcalibur 5).

I did my best to stick it out, hit the lab, and somehow won a couple tourneys with one of them. But if you really want to play a character, in this case Mileena, it's totally understandable to feel that way. Unless of course, you don't have any intention to ever compete, or you only play top tier, or you have real life things that take all your time.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Third issue: She does a fancy spin which has no interesting properties - no projectile evade, armour, will still generally be hit by low attacks, etc. My suggestion: make the move advance more and get her off the ground quicker and higher

She now has moves that low-profile very well (roll, her low pokes) and now a move that "high-profiles" as well (the new f3). No new 50/50 gimmicks were introduced and the threat of a 50/50 in neutral remains exactly as it was before.

Interesting idea. The part about her being off the ground sooner to effectively jump over lows/grabs on a read is something I've thought about too. You can sort of already do that once your opponent has reacted to your run-in attempts with D4s, but it depends on the recovery speed. This is the most logical change to make without turning her into just another low/overhead character.

 

[TheGabStandard]

True. But my argument is kind of why "those communities" even exist to begin with. Who doesn't want their character to be strong? I've been getting "stuck" with sub-par characters in every fighting game I've played. Either that, or they were good and got severely nerfed. (ie: Leixia in Soulcalibur 5).

I did my best to stick it out, hit the lab, and won a couple tourneys with one of them. But if you really want to play a character, in this case Mileena, it's totally understandable to feel that way. Unless of course, you don't have any intention to ever compete, or you only play top tier, or you have real life things that take all your time.

Those are some good points, maybe we need to complain more

On a serious note, you are right and I don't blame people who feel that way as well, especially as you pointed out the Kenshi/Jacqui examples. I guess my personal viewpoint (although probably quite naive lol) is to wish that the character I want to play is strong, but make do with what I have on the premise that no buffs is coming to my character.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Those are some good points, maybe we need to complain more

On a serious note, you are right and I don't blame people who feel that way as well, especially as you pointed out the Kenshi/Jacqui examples. I guess my personal viewpoint (although probably quite naive lol) is to wish that the character I want to play is strong, but make do with what I have on the premise that no buffs is coming to my character.

Yeah and I'll even go one step further. In some ways, It makes me into a better player overall when I don't have all the bullshit options to bail me out. Because, like you said, I'm making what I have work. But it can, and often does, come at the cost of consistent results. That's where the core issue is personally for myself. Keep in mind, most other fighting games don't get the amount of attempts at patches NRS games get.

 

[TheGabStandard]

Yeah and I'll even go one step further. In some ways, It makes me into a better player overall when I don't have all the bullshit options to bail me out. Because, like you said, I'm making what I have work. But it can, and often does, come at the cost of consistent results. That's where the core issue is personally for myself. Keep in mind, most other fighting games don't get the amount of attempts at patches NRS games get.

I definitely agree that playing a character that is "weaker" or exposes your weaknesses will help develop you into a better player than using a top tier who hides them.

 

[qspec]

Just to theorycraft:

Even were it to be speed up without any take (no damage or safety nerf), that doesn't necessarily make it broken. As of right now, it isn't simply blockable on reaction, it is punishable on reaction.

Were it to take a fairly massive buff in the form of say 25 frames of start-up, that would move it down to reactable while still making it difficult to punish (though not impossible). 40% damage and safe recovery more than make up for such unusual start up in this game as 25 frames for a comboable overhead still puts the start-up behind the average.

That said, if I had to chose, I'd go with a damage decrease, though again, I don't think it is necessary as right now the move is almost completely unusable (seriously, does anyone have set-ups that work for F3?). Meaning I think we have a false dichotomy of buff it if you nerf it when the actual fact of it is buff it if you ever want to see it be used ever.

@theGabStandard

I agree that playing a weaker character can help fundamentals, but not always. Sometimes, it just reinforces gimicks to win. You're already seeing online Mileena's throwing out Roll like they are being paid to hoping for a lucky catch to take the round.

 

[ZeroEffect]

That said, if I had to chose, I'd go with a damage decrease, though again, I don't think it is necessary as right now the move is almost completely unusable (seriously, does anyone have set-ups that work for F3?). Meaning I think we have a false dichotomy of buff it if you nerf it when the actual fact of it is buff it if you ever want to see it be used ever.

I agree that playing a weaker character can help fundamentals, but not always. Sometimes, it just reinforces gimicks to win. You're already seeing online Mileena's throwing out Roll like they are being paid to hoping for a lucky catch to take the round.

Well sometimes even top players throw Hail Marys in tournament, so I wouldn't call it a gimmick so much as desperation. But if we're talking awful online Mileenas that use roll like scrub Subzeros use slide, then there's no need to even comment on that, lol.

As for F3, I don't think there's a set up per se, but the idea is that people are going to block low against her. Period. The natural reaction to seeing an overhead isn't to mash buttons, it's to stand up and block. Sure, they could react with uppercut, or armor, but unless you're being predictable or using it too often, that really shouldn't happen a lot.

If they make it faster, (though I have no idea how they can without changing the animation completely), I'm sure no one here would be mad, lol.

 

[Yoaks]

"Less complaining. More yolo rolling." - Yoaks 2015

 

[tatterbug4]

In this game fine is a different level. The gap between fine and good is huge in this game. Your character either plays mkx or doesn't that is it.

I'm no mileena player but I can sorta feel everyone's pain

 

[TheGabStandard]

That said, if I had to chose, I'd go with a damage decrease, though again, I don't think it is necessary as right now the move is almost completely unusable (seriously, does anyone have set-ups that work for F3?)

Setups for F3 to work, there are a few from memory but haven't tried it recently.

- Starter, Roll, Nj2, F23 xx roll. From there run cancel to F3 will hit the opponent.
- NJKs leaves the opponent in perfect F3 range

There might be something with 21U4 but cannot remember to be honest.

I agree that playing a weaker character can help fundamentals, but not always. Sometimes, it just reinforces gimicks to win. You're already seeing online Mileena's throwing out Roll like they are being paid to hoping for a lucky catch to take the round.

That is true to an extent, depends on the character

 

[ZeroEffect]

Setups for F3 to work, there are a few from memory but haven't tried it recently.

- Starter, Roll, Nj2, F23 xx roll. From there run cancel to F3 will hit the opponent.
- NJKs leaves the opponent in perfect F3 range

There might be something with 21U4 but cannot remember to be honest.

I think if you land a JIP f3 supposedly can't be armored through, but then I'm usually dialing 123 or 21 after JIP so I never have need of that. Also those F3 setups can lose to wakeups can't they? Fast ones not armored ones I mean.

 

[TheGabStandard]

I think if you land a JIP f3 supposedly can't be armored through, but then I'm usually dialing 123 or 21 after JIP so I never have need of that. Also those F3 setups can lose to wakeups can't they? Fast ones not armored ones I mean.

I read about the JIP the other day but haven't tried it yet to see if its true. The setups can potentially lose to fast wakeups but can't say for certain as these were from so long ago. WIll look at them again and will let you know.

 

[JDE]

For the record, I didn't say it would be "broken". I said that you had to weight the outcomes & how would the cast deal with it. The 25 frames suggestion is also fair, but it (imo) would only lead to more complaints when they're getting hit out of it. It's just how people are at TYM. This then would be because people are using it the wrong way, but even still, by suggesting this, you still wouldn't (theoretically speaking) land F3 outright against an opponent. You would be still using 21U4 & Ex Roll. F3 would become more of a use right outside of character length, much like Scorpion's & Kung Lao's overhead.

Also, Kenshi NEEDED those buffs believe it or not. It's like players complaining about Sub-Zero all of the time when he doesn't need to be nerfed again. He needs his clone for his oki & his variation, but all people want to do is destroy him. Mileena needs fixes more than anything. Yes, I get that you see others are getting the "Bane treatment" (myself included), but it's me again thinking about who really needs it & who don't really need it. If I wanted to play a Top Tier, I would've just said fuck it 3 weeks ago & then picked up Kung Jin or Raiden. I play in tournaments, too. I enjoy winning with my favorite characters. I'm still actually deciding on who's suited for me & who's not tbh. I'm having fun with all of my favorites, but I can only take a few. & quite sure if I were to drop Mileena right now to go & focus on Scorpion, Sub-Zero, (or Kung Lao & Kitana), everyone here in the Mileena community would be all over my case calling me a Tier Whore, although these are my favorite characters that I enjoy. They were my 1st 2 characters. Mileena came when MKII was released along with Kitana. I'm taking 3 with me offline.

 

[projectzero00]

I don'y even touch f3 tbh. If she got a usable overhead I would rather it be f1

 

[TheGabStandard]

For the record, I didn't say it would be "broken". I said that you had to weight the outcomes & how would the cast deal with it. The 25 frames suggestion is also fair, but it (imo) would only lead to more complaints when they're getting hit out of it. It's just how people are at TYM. This then would be because people are using it the wrong way, but even still, by suggesting this, you still wouldn't (theoretically speaking) land F3 outright against an opponent. You would be still using 21U4 & Ex Roll. F3 would become more of a use right outside of character length, much like Scorpion's & Kung Lao's overhead.

Also, Kenshi NEEDED those buffs believe it or not. It's like players complaining about Sub-Zero all of the time when he doesn't need to be nerfed again. He needs his clone for his oki & his variation, but all people want to do is destroy him. Mileena needs fixes more than anything. Yes, I get that you see others are getting the "Bane treatment" (myself included), but it's me again thinking about who really needs it & who don't really need it. If I wanted to play a Top Tier, I would've just said fuck it a 3 weeks ago & then picked up Kung Jin or Raiden. I play in tournaments, too. I enjoy winning with my favorite characters. I'm still actually deciding on who's suited for me & who's not tbh. I'm having fun with all of my favorites, but I can only take a few. & quite sure if I were to drop Mileena right now to go & focus on Scorpion, Sub-Zero, (or Kung Lao & Kitana), everyone here in the Mileena community would be all over my case calling me a Tier Whore, although these are my favorite characters that I enjoy. They were my 1st 2 characters. Mileena came when MKII was released along with Kitana. I'm taking 3 with me offline.

I would like to believe that you wouldn't be called a tier whore if you dropped Mileena for someone. Well I wouldn't anyway. You should be free to play who you want to regardless of tier placement and shouldn't be criticized if a character you try happens to fit you more than a current main.

 

[ZeroEffect]

Also, Kenshi NEEDED those buffs believe it or not. It's like players complaining about Sub-Zero all of the time when he doesn't need to be nerfed again. He needs his clone for his oki & his variation, but all people want to do is destroy him. Mileena needs fixes more than anything. Yes, I get that you see others are getting the "Bane treatment" (myself included), but it's me again thinking about who really needs it & who don't really need it. If I wanted to play a Top Tier, I would've just said fuck it a 3 weeks ago & then picked up Kung Jin or Raiden. I play in tournaments, too. I enjoy winning with my favorite characters.

I haven't kept up with Sub-Zero enough to see what the complaints are now, tbh. And sure, Kenshi may have needed the buffs. Maybe Jacqui's fixes were warranted too.

Hmm, I dunno... maybe my points weren't coming across well enough. In my opinion, Mileena doesn't really need too many changes to be a "complete" character, but she might need them to be a "stronger" one down the road.

Anyway, maybe this is it and she remains untouched from here on out. I mean, we all could've said "fuck it" and switched without posting anything. But it's *because* I enjoy using Mileena, that I'm even discussing these things at all.

And yeah, don't worry about anyone here jumping on you if you were to switch. You gotta do you.

 

[Wigy]

People you can't compare JUST the frames of moves to other characters. It doesn't matter if a character has a faster safer overhead than you cause your characters are different, other characters don't have the tools mileena does.

She has already been adjusted. Let the game play out a bit before crying for more buffs your character is fine!