People who think counter-picking is "sleezy or impure"

[arde5643]

Anyone who doesn't know what you mean by the "right bracket" shouldn't be on this site. You flat-out state that a "NON-TOP TIER character loyalist" cannot win a tournament at all and can even just barely make top 8 ONLY if the bracket is full of the few favourable matchups for said non-top tier character. I only used 16bit as an example as he's the most recent top placer with what is arguably a bottom-tier character. Just like your other statement about MK would lead one to believe that you think that MK isn't a much more heavily MU-based game than Injustice is.

LBSH, even top tier characters can have the "wrong brackets" for them. The difference is that it's a much harder thing to pull off and the player is much more likely to overcome the bad matchups and win.

So in your opinion, any character in Injustice should be able to make top 8 without any issues and even if the brackets are full of lopsided match-ups against them, it's actually the players' own fault for not being able to overcome 3-7 or 4-6 match-ups every single time?

If that's your belief, I can't do much to dissuade you other than to say that 16bit is the only successful Catwoman on the scene and for good reason - his pedigree of skill and excellent training partners and scene to compensate the numerous bad match-ups Catwoman faces. Others with less patience and scene will opt to pick easier characters to use.

And in terms of MK being a MU heavy game - only for the top...what is it? 4-6 characters in the game? Anything less than that aren't even included in match-up charts. So if you say MK is a heavy MU based game, well, I can only laugh at that ridiculous notion. Might as well say UMVC3 is a heavy MU based game too.

 

[@MylesWright_]

When you use characters like Killer Frost you don't even notice counter-picking because pretty much every other character in the game is a solid answer to her day 1 crap that the development of her character was limited to only using

 

[RiBBz22]

When you use characters like Killer Frost you don't even notice counter-picking because pretty much every other character in the game is a solid answer to her day 1 crap that the development of her character was limited to only using

What time is it in the Netherrealm?

 

[@MylesWright_]

What time is it in the Netherrealm?

The only Netherrealm on this site is the killer frost forum

 

[NYCj360]

I'm all for counter picking, if you want to switch it up on me i'll be more than happy to fight your out of practice secondary pick with my fully warmed up Main.

I do hate it when people counter pick me every match in casuals, even if i stomp them out just the intent is disgusting enough. Learn to deal with the bad matchups with your character, figure out why its bad, and THEN pick a character who excels where your character lacks.

 

[Justice]

So in your opinion, any character in Injustice should be able to make top 8 without any issues and even if the brackets are full of lopsided match-ups against them, it's actually the players' own fault for not being able to overcome 3-7 or 4-6 match-ups every single time?

If that's your belief, I can't do much to dissuade you other than to say that 16bit is the only successful Catwoman on the scene and for good reason - his pedigree of skill and excellent training partners and scene to compensate the numerous bad match-ups Catwoman faces. Others with less patience and scene will opt to pick easier characters to use.

And in terms of MK being a MU heavy game - only for the top...what is it? 4-6 characters in the game? Anything less than that aren't even included in match-up charts. So if you say MK is a heavy MU based game, well, I can only laugh at that ridiculous notion. Might as well say UMVC3 is a heavy MU based game too.

/sigh

6/4 and 7/3 are now lopsided matchups? wow.........

It's called matchup knowledge. No character should have an easy road to the top whether it's MMH, Catwoman or Bane. It all comes down to who knows how to use the character's tools better or more creatively. To be a loyalist, you have to be willing to hash out those matchups like Catwoman/Sinestro instead of running to MMH to whup him.

The last thing I'll say on this is to quote Tom Brady actually. "In Injustice, I feel like I'm playing the player while in MK I felt like I was playing the character."

 

[Doombawkz]

You best bet I'll be using Zatanna against Bane instead of BG. It's not that I don't know the Bane MU as BG or don't think I'll win, it's just it's so much easier as Zatanna.

I'm really looking forward to EVO haha. If you're going hopefully we can run the Bane/BG and Bane/Zatanna MUs (although the second one is terribad for Bane )

It's not that bad offline, or so I've heard.

Point is though you know how to fight him. It's easier, sure, but only because you know what to do.

 

[arde5643]

/sigh

6/4 and 7/3 are now lopsided matchups? wow.........

It's called matchup knowledge. No character should have an easy road to the top whether it's MMH, Catwoman or Bane. It all comes down to who knows how to use the character's tools better or more creatively. To be a loyalist, you have to be willing to hash out those matchups like Catwoman/Sinestro instead of running to MMH to whup him.

The last thing I'll say on this is to quote Tom Brady actually. "In Injustice, I feel like I'm playing the player while in MK I felt like I was playing the character."

At this point, I'm really really doubtful of what you consider as lopsided match-ups - I guess if you call MK 9 a MU heavy game, I can see where you're coming from on what you deem as a gold standard of lopsided match-ups. 7-3 match-ups in SF4 are what i consider as Dhalsim vs Cammy - almost unwinnable at the highest level for Dhalsim players.

Perhaps as the metagame progresses and we reach the zenith of Injustice play, what's considered as 7-3 might come down to 6-4 or perhaps gets even worse - we won't know till we get there though.

Back on the topic of counter-picking: it is sleazy or impure only if the person doing the counterpick doesn't even reach top 16/top8 or get out of the pools.
In other words, if you counter-pick and reach top 8, you're a hero, and if you don't, you're a zero. It's all a matter of perspective.

Because by the time you reach top 8, no one will remember the counter-picking, unless you screwed up and lost while counter-picking in top 8 obviously. Most people tend to congratulate winners in spite of what they did to reach said position.

Does that make counter-picking right? That depends on what you feel is more important? Winning the tournament or the emotional attachment to the character's struggles in overcoming lopsided match-ups?
Subjectively, I prefer the drama and emotion of seeing low tier characters overcoming the odds, but that's me, the stream-monster, not the player themselves.

 

[rev0lver]

/sigh

6/4 and 7/3 are now lopsided matchups? wow.........

It's called matchup knowledge. No character should have an easy road to the top whether it's MMH, Catwoman or Bane. It all comes down to who knows how to use the character's tools better or more creatively. To be a loyalist, you have to be willing to hash out those matchups like Catwoman/Sinestro instead of running to MMH to whup him.

The last thing I'll say on this is to quote Tom Brady actually. "In Injustice, I feel like I'm playing the player while in MK I felt like I was playing the character."

There are near unwinnable matchups in this game. Sinestro-Lex, at a high level, isn't something where I can just grind out and improve my fundamentals and have anything better than like a 5% chance of beating a player like WoundCowboy in a tournament set. The fundamental mechanics of this game fuck this matchup so hard. Then there's matchups like Cyborg-Martian. I will gladly slap the shit out of anyone who tells a Cyborg player that they're just not working hard enough when they lose to a player like Reo.

Tom Brady said that because he plays a character that gets bodied by no one. Peoples' perspectives from their character skew their perspectives on the rest of the game.

 

[BanTheTesters]

You play Zod and Martian, lets not pretend that any of your matchups are extremely difficult lol

 

[SHAOLIN]

You play to win,not to entertain.If anybody thinks its "Sleezy or Impure" they don't understand the tournament mentality.Character Loyalty is good and all if your playing top tier character.

 

[Justice]

There are near unwinnable matchups in this game. Sinestro-Lex, at a high level, isn't something where I can just grind out and improve my fundamentals and have anything better than like a 5% chance of beating a player like WoundCowboy in a tournament set. The fundamental mechanics of this game fuck this matchup so hard. Then there's matchups like Cyborg-Martian. I will gladly slap the shit out of anyone who tells a Cyborg player that they're just not working hard enough when they lose to a player like Reo.

Tom Brady said that because he plays a character that gets bodied by no one. Peoples' perspectives from their character skew their perspectives on the rest of the game.

Fair enough. I still have hope that we can find stuff somewhere that will open up this game even further. I would like to believe that there are no unwinnable match ups, but that there are match ups that you need to be much more on point with.

 

[Rabbit]

Counter-picking is legitimate.

If someone at a tournament is just sitting there waiting for you to pick at the first game just use hidden cursor.



Online it usually rustles my jimmies when people counter-pick with a mirror then quit after they win or lose.

 

[juicepouch]

I'm all for counter picking, if you want to switch it up on me i'll be more than happy to fight your out of practice secondary pick with my fully warmed up Main.

I do hate it when people counter pick me every match in casuals, even if i stomp them out just the intent is disgusting enough. Learn to deal with the bad matchups with your character, figure out why its bad, and THEN pick a character who excels where your character lacks.

I played a set today where the guy tried to counterpick my raven before he even knew if i was good or not. The reason I was playing her was because i was trying to learnher better, and he instantly goes to doomsday (who it was readily apparent he didn't play). I mean let's play one or two against your characters you actually know so I can get better, right?

 

[Peckapowa]

Fair enough. I still have hope that we can find stuff somewhere that will open up this game even further. I would like to believe that there are no unwinnable match ups, but that there are match ups that you need to be much more on point with.

At this point, I'm really really doubtful of what you consider as lopsided match-ups - I guess if you call MK 9 a MU heavy game, I can see where you're coming from on what you deem as a gold standard of lopsided match-ups. 7-3 match-ups in SF4 are what i consider as Dhalsim vs Cammy - almost unwinnable at the highest level for Dhalsim players.

Perhaps as the metagame progresses and we reach the zenith of Injustice play, what's considered as 7-3 might come down to 6-4 or perhaps gets even worse - we won't know till we get there though.

Back on the topic of counter-picking: it is sleazy or impure only if the person doing the counterpick doesn't even reach top 16/top8 or get out of the pools.
In other words, if you counter-pick and reach top 8, you're a hero, and if you don't, you're a zero. It's all a matter of perspective.

Because by the time you reach top 8, no one will remember the counter-picking, unless you screwed up and lost while counter-picking in top 8 obviously. Most people tend to congratulate winners in spite of what they did to reach said position.

Does that make counter-picking right? That depends on what you feel is more important? Winning the tournament or the emotional attachment to the character's struggles in overcoming lopsided match-ups?
Subjectively, I prefer the drama and emotion of seeing low tier characters overcoming the odds, but that's me, the stream-monster, not the player themselves.

The better the players become the more lop-sided matchups will become, the more the game is fleshed out the more specific advantages start to make a big difference because the players understand every situation and fully exploit game mechanics and their skills begin to stalemate. Right now players are all over the place and don't fully exploit every matchup or character towards their fullest potential.

The more and more players in anything begin to achieve perfection systematic variability becomes more relevant. Chess is won in competitive play by white 55% of the time or something like that. Compared to street fighter, injustice has a shit load of variables. Increase of variables in anything reduces performance as a rule of thumb. In this scenario the balance of the game is being reduced by the number of variables in the game. This means that injustice in the long run is going to be extremely based (and already is) on character exploitation. Street fighter is highly rewarding to the player because it is designed with a small number of moves, each one intelligently balanced with meaningful risk reward. 6-7 years into that game it will still be more and more about characters because players stop growing.

Tom brady has to be smoking crack when he says feels like he is playing the player more in this game because i believe in injustice might wind up being even worst then mk9, even though netherealm did a better job attempting to balance in some way. He has selective memory of getting bopped by kenshis, now he is the one who mains kenshi. If anything this game is even more about playing against the character and more about abusing matchups, due to the restricted footsie game and excessively dominating options like doomsday's mb venom and zods trait and batmans trait and sinestro's trait and batgirls mixups and martian's tele. These options bottleneck players spacing games and the majority of damage is decided by brutal guessing games. The only thing that balances this game out is the brokeness and difficulty of dealing with every characters options. You can lose to shazam with one boneheaded mistake but he will never TOUCH you once if you play the matchup correctly the entire game. If this game was more about the player then people like noobe wouldn't be beating people like reo, who are far more talented. Mk9 was more rewarding to the player because we saw more consistent tournament results. This game is almost purely about character exploitation, just look at doomsday. Any1 who truly understands fighting games should see that by now, and it is only going to get worst.

This game has extremely slow walk-speed and punishable dashes, this is becoming more and more exploited by top players by punishing dashes on reaction, characters with safe fast relatively far reaching normals have a serious advantage to the point where it renders other characters footsie games useless, especially when they are on the defensive. One of the big reasons this game has so much randomness in tournament performance is because even the worst characters like shazam have brutally unfair guessing games and making one mistake fucks you over. Along with it being 2 out of 3 better players can get randomed out of tournament. So you can call that "balance" or you can call it an "injustice" too talented and thoughtful players

 

[SaltShaker]

^^

That post though.

 

[Superi0rMagik]

Just choose the best character! Then you wont have to

 

[TaffyMeat]

I see why you were banned. On topic I refuse to play anyone who hides their cursor

 

[SaltShaker]

I see why you were banned. On topic I refuse to play anyone who hides their cursor

Why? You rather see who they pick 1st so you can decide who you want to use against their character? Lol

 

[TaffyMeat]

Why? You rather see who they pick 1st so you can decide who you want to use against their character? Lol

Yes. But I do not pick multiple characters whilst waiting for you to choose. People who Deselect andl reselect are very annoyingly impatient. I don't want Johnny Johnny Cage. I pick once and stick with it.

 

[SaltShaker]

Yes. But I do not pick multiple characters whilst waiting for you to choose. People who Deselect andl reselect are very annoyingly impatient. I don't want Johnny Johnny Cage. I pick once and stick with it.

Say what???

You want to have the "advantage" by seeing who your opponent picks 1st before you select your character, and at the same time won't play, repeat won't play against people who hide their selection? Well what if they want to see who YOUR selection is before they pick THEIR character? Since this is what you do by your own admission you should have no problem when it is done to you.

I personally could care less who anyone picks. 9/10 times it happens they go to a character they think has a "better MU" against yours, completely oblivious to the fact that they don't have the skill level required to make it a bad MU. Making it an easier win than if they had played with their main. Seeing people jump to another character is more "lol at this guy" than anything else.

 

[RM AtK!]

Anyone who doesn't know what you mean by the "right bracket" shouldn't be on this site. You flat-out state that a "NON-TOP TIER character loyalist" cannot win a tournament at all and can even just barely make top 8 ONLY if the bracket is full of the few favourable matchups for said non-top tier character. I only used 16bit as an example as he's the most recent top placer with what is arguably a bottom-tier character. Just like your other statement about MK would lead one to believe that you think that MK isn't a much more heavily MU-based game than Injustice is.

LBSH, even top tier characters can have the "wrong brackets" for them. The difference is that it's a much harder thing to pull off and the player is much more likely to overcome the bad matchups and win.

kitana bottom tier?? GTFO

 

[Justice]

kitana bottom tier?? GTFO

Who said anything about Kitana? We were talking about non-top tier in INJUSTICE.

 

[RM AtK!]

Who said anything about Kitana? We were talking about non-top tier in INJUSTICE.

pretty sure catwoman isnt bottom tier either?

 

[bipolar_shango]

In tournaments its expected & 100% acceptable, but in casuals? C'mon Son!