Discussion Patches overwhelmingly help NRS games not hurt them

[rev0lver]

Did Viscant get banned? Because he's getting the You do not have permission message & if he did that is some weak shit.

If he were banned his name would be crossed out. Maybe it has to do with his name being changed from JayViscant-->Viscant? Tell him to log out and log back in.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Did Viscant get banned? Because he's getting the You do not have permission message & if he did that is some weak shit.

Also lol at the claims of arrogance, God this is why so many people just dodge on TYM. Buncha donkeys

I'm not sure what caused this to happen (it wasn't a ban), but I've fixed it -- so he's good to post again.

 

[LEGEND]

Since Viscant is too good to address me personally, even after welcoming him to this site and to the friendly little debate we have here, I guess I'll talk to him in the 3rd person as well.

1. Viscant says Tanya might not have been 'broke' (A term we do use loosely, but I think he's taking too literal) because Grandmaster Sub seemed to do well against her. I know back in the MvC2 days this would be a valid argument because she'd have a counter and that is his sense of balance. But to us, that is batshit crazy. The entire community shouldn't have to learn Grandmaster Sub because Tanya is out of control. That is not balance. Balance is being able to pick whatever character you want and have a reasonable chance to beat any character picked against you. To us, the standards are higher these days.

2. I'm not sure how or why Viscant can say the patching strategy failed at CEO. Yea, Tanya was nerfed previously before CEO and she still dominated the tournament. So we should've left Tanya the way she was? Even MORE broke and that would've proven patches are fine? Wouldn't she have just dominated even more? I don't even understand how that argument makes sense.

3. Viscant mentions how Fisticuffs Johnny got nerfed and he believes the reason was because NRS didn't want people to laugh at their game. Or, maybe it was nerfed because it really was too powerful. It was looked into. Some characters who didn't have good armor, slow pokes and had a beefy hitbox could do next to nothing to get out of his b12121 in the corner. Characters like Quan Chi, Erron Black, Takeda, ect. literally had to block about ten b12's and at any point Cage could stagger them, reset the spacing to do 10 more, an overhead that launches or a low that would also reset the b1212 guessing game. There are only so many options. There is this thing called training mode where we can record how to deal with these types of things and explore your options and for some characters the guessing game was not reasonable to get out of.

But maybe Viscant is right. Maybe 3 years from now we'll find a glitch where you can use a just frame block breaker with no meter on the 13th frame of block stun that the devs didn't know about and it'll all be ok. Lets wait and see! rollseyes:

4. Injustice and MK9 didn't die because they were awful games. They died because new ones came out. Actually, MK9 still had a decent following deep into Injustice's lifespan, but please continue to tell us about our own communty's history. It's not condescending at all. Yes, UMvC3 and SFIV are still being played. They are still going. Why? Because there aren't any sequels to them released yet. Does anyone think SFIV is gonna have 3000 entrants when SFV drops? Does anyone think UMvC3 will have 800 entrants if MvC4 dropped? Hell no. 3rd Strike, MvC2 and ST are considered to be some of Capcom's masterpieces. So why aren't we seeing 3000 entrees for these games? Because they are old and there are newer versions. This argument is a cheap shot. We don't play MK9 and Injustice anymore because they aren't good or because they patched too much. We don't play because we're supporting NRS's new game.


5. Viscant next goes into how his matchup strategy versus D'Vorah has changed because D'Vorah's f1 changed on block. The thing is, this change happened in Sonya's favor and he's acting like it's a BAD thing. Viscant says he tries and keep her at the tip of Sonya's f2 range because if she got in range of D'Vorah's f1 she'd be in trouble. How has that changed? D'Vorah still gets the advantage after f1 on block, we still have to guess. It's still not in anyone's favor to just sit back and block D'Vorah's pressure and mixups all day. The patch allows us to armor out of the overhead to make it more risky for HER to do and he's acting like his world has turned upside down. This stuff isn't hard to understand. Are NRS players just smarter than Viscant? Like seriously wtf.

I love how says he saw a Quan Chi uppercut in between KL's mb hat into a string and asked, 'Can Sonya do that? I don't know,' like it's gonna be the next segment on Robert Stack's Unsolved Mysteries. Well that's what training mode is for dude. It will literally take 3 minutes or less to answer that question. But I guess it's easier to never look into it, lose to someone in a tournament and blame NRS for patching something that actually made it easier on you. For someone who says they are trying to play our game seriously, that's incredibly lazy and is evidence he's clearly not.

6. Viscant self proclaimed himself to better at assessing character balance better than most, but can't read some basic changes in the patch notes and not understand what they mean and how they change things? These are the Capcom players we all look up to and strive to become? I understand the slightest change can things dramatically, but most of these changes it's pretty obvious why they were changed and what the designer is looking for. He doesn't want D'Vorah to be able to f1 and get 40% on hit and on block jail into a 50/50. He doesn't want Kung Lao or Shinnok to meterburn their moves to give them +20 something to create ridiculous pressure and guessing games. He doesn't want Scorpion to loop his 214 into more block pressure of 50/50. I could go on, but you all know what I mean.

I am grateful for these changes. That stupid broke- *ahem* I mean "Top Tier meta" is not fun to play against and is the type of stuff that makes people not want to play because of how insane it is. We should be THANKING Paulo for making these changes. Not crucifying him. The game is better, more fun and more balanced because of them.

And finally, Viscant comes down from the clouds to preach his heavenly wisdom about what it takes to be a top player at a game. Because you know, we as NRS players don't REALLY know what it's like to be top players. For some reason we NRS players don't mind adjusting a couple of our strategy's with our character or against one every few weeks when a patch comes out. But it is for him. For some reason we have a higher work ethic than the great Viscant. Why is that? Because this is our main game. This is our passion project. We love Mortal Kombat. We love the character we play with and we want to represent them. But if we know our favorite character's are useless in tournament play we would stop playing. And that's why we love the patches. And that's why other community's need to stfu about them. Sorry our standard for balance is higher than theirs.

And I would like to take a moment to defend NRS players and their skill level. I came from Tekken. Throughout my career in Tekken I won 7 majors from TTT1 through TTT2. (5 straight in TTT1) I have either won or placed top 8 in 20 other Tekken tournaments that were either on the regional level or higher. I've made top 8 at Evo 3x. I went to Japan during the peak of T5: Dark Resurrection and beat everyone I played except the #1 player in Japan and barely lost. I've won regionals in Soul Caliber and Mortal Kombat 9 and have been respectable in other games. NRS players are as good as they come. They're just as smart and talented as anyone I've played. I think I, and all the NRS players deserve a little more respect than to come in here and assume we don't know how the meta of fighting games work and what it takes to be a top player.

UltraDavid wants to act like there isn't a scent of arrogance that Capcom players hold over us. I don't know about you guys, but it stinks in here.

Someone with the power to do so should Add this post to the OP

Brilliant

 

[Zephyrus]

.

all I could read in that rant was "we don't want to level up our game and actually learn something to counter what's giving us trouble, so fuck viscant and everyone who says otherwise".

I mained Guy in SSF4 and had to deal with a lot of bullshit. I eventually found ways to deal with what was giving me trouble by playing smart and baiting a ton of shit (something that you can barely do in mkx).

Instead of seeing these "pros" doing the same thing, you have people asking for sub-zero normalizations, one week after the game is out, for quan chi normalization... for anything that is currently giving them trouble.

I can only look at you (or anyone) with pity and disgust if you say otherwise because that was EXACTLY what happened here on this forum.

It didn't give room for the game to be learned. You simply saw something good and instead of learning out to deal with it, you asked for it to be removed.

I could've asked for Guile to be removed out of the game for being a near impossible match up to win with Guy in SSF4. I would, rightfully, be laughed at by the entire FGC. Instead I learned out to maximize my pressure and bait flash kicks and other stuff. Got to around 13k BP points with my Guy. Not bad if I do say so myself *pats himself on the shoulder*.

Not seeing the same with this community. Never saw the same with this community and I've been here since mk9.

As soon as someone saw something strong in a character, people started asking for nerfs. And weeks later NRS would give them those nerfs leaving no room for growth.

BUT I will say that we ARE lucky to get these patches, because once the dlc characters are out, this game won't be patched again. Has happened with mk9 and injustice. Seeing how NRS still makes the same mistaked they did with those two games, I'm inclined to believe that this too will happen.

So for better or for worse, enjoy the current system in place.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

I just want to say first of all thank you to @Viscant and @UltraDavid for taking the time to write out your thoughts on NRS patching, and with the amount that you guys have written it shows to me that you do actually care.

After reading this whole thread it is apparent that the differing views are based on the business models that Capcom and NRS employ.

• The pro SF4 business model with purchase new versions of the game and get 1 patch with that new version
• The pro NRS model with a new game every two years and patching for the first 6 months model.

It looks like our two scenes will not agree on this for some time. I just want to say one new thing.

When SF5 comes out, lets say that some top NRS players pick up the game and start playing it. If they are strongly complaining about SF5 and are threatening to quit, please do not listen to them. They have not shown that they actually care about SF5 or its scene. Their opinions could be very harmful to the true SF5 scene if they are taken seriously. Listen to the players that have proven that they really care about SF4 and it's long term health. NRS players should be treated as guests with respect, but should not have a major voice to any changes that might occur to SF5.

SF5 could be a very fun time for all scenes. The NRS scene is really strong now, and it would be fun to watch some NRS players play at SF5 majors.

 

[KingHippo]

I don't get the donkeys thing, is that supposed to be jackasses?

 

[Rude]

It's been said that the patches are too focused on nerfing the high tier and not enough for the low tier.

Which, herp-derp isn't true.

Kitana received a truckload of buffs.
Shinnok received a bunch of buffs.
Reptile was given buffs, maybe not what the community wanted but he did get a fair amount of buffs the patch before last.
As did Takeda.
As did Hat Trick Lao.
As did Goro.


The nerfs to the top tiers, with a few exceptions, have been fairly minimal.

The agendas are extremely transparent in this thread from certain posters.

 

[Rude]

all I could read in that rant was "we don't want to level up our game and actually learn something to counter what's giving us trouble, so fuck viscant and everyone who says otherwise".

I mained Guy in SSF4 and had to deal with a lot of bullshit. I eventually found ways to deal with what was giving me trouble by playing smart and baiting a ton of shit (something that you can barely do in mkx).

Instead of seeing these "pros" doing the same thing, you have people asking for sub-zero normalizations, one week after the game is out, for quan chi normalization... for anything that is currently giving them trouble.

I can only look at you (or anyone) with pity and disgust if you say otherwise because that was EXACTLY what happened here on this forum.

It didn't give room for the game to be learned. You simply saw something good and instead of learning out to deal with it, you asked for it to be removed.

I could've asked for Guile to be removed out of the game for being a near impossible match up to win with Guy in SSF4. I would, rightfully, be laughed at by the entire FGC. Instead I learned out to maximize my pressure and bait flash kicks and other stuff. Got to around 13k BP points with my Guy. Not bad if I do say so myself *pats himself on the shoulder*.

Not seeing the same with this community. Never saw the same with this community and I've been here since mk9.

As soon as someone saw something strong in a character, people started asking for nerfs. And weeks later NRS would give them those nerfs leaving no room for growth.

BUT I will say that we ARE lucky to get these patches, because once the dlc characters are out, this game won't be patched again. Has happened with mk9 and injustice. Seeing how NRS still makes the same mistaked they did with those two games, I'm inclined to believe that this too will happen.

So for better or for worse, enjoy the current system in place.

Vanilla MK X desperately needed a patch.

Kano, in two of his variations, had a block infinite in the corner vs Takeda and Quan Chi. No escape was possible.

These are only two examples off the top of my head, but you cannot grind out escaping an infinite. You just die.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

all I could read in that rant was "we don't want to level up our game and actually learn something to counter what's giving us trouble, so fuck viscant and everyone who says otherwise".

I mained Guy in SSF4 and had to deal with a lot of bullshit. I eventually found ways to deal with what was giving me trouble by playing smart and baiting a ton of shit (something that you can barely do in mkx).

Instead of seeing these "pros" doing the same thing, you have people asking for sub-zero normalizations, one week after the game is out, for quan chi normalization... for anything that is currently giving them trouble.

I can only look at you (or anyone) with pity and disgust if you say otherwise because that was EXACTLY what happened here on this forum.

It didn't give room for the game to be learned. You simply saw something good and instead of learning out to deal with it, you asked for it to be removed.

I could've asked for Guile to be removed out of the game for being a near impossible match up to win with Guy in SSF4. I would, rightfully, be laughed at by the entire FGC. Instead I learned out to maximize my pressure and bait flash kicks and other stuff. Got to around 13k BP points with my Guy. Not bad if I do say so myself *pats himself on the shoulder*.

Not seeing the same with this community. Never saw the same with this community and I've been here since mk9.

As soon as someone saw something strong in a character, people started asking for nerfs. And weeks later NRS would give them those nerfs leaving no room for growth.

BUT I will say that we ARE lucky to get these patches, because once the dlc characters are out, this game won't be patched again. Has happened with mk9 and injustice. Seeing how NRS still makes the same mistaked they did with those two games, I'm inclined to believe that this too will happen.

So for better or for worse, enjoy the current system in place.

I think you missed his point entirely. Years of experience with NRS' FG engine has allowed us to better discern which things can be adapted to over time, vs. which things make use of the engine's workings in such a way that they pose actual issues that need direct attention.

Slips in particular played lower-tier in both of the past two games, and is very familiar with adapating and finding solutions to being at a disadvantage. He was also a top Tekken player who's respected for his fundamentals, and understands a winner's mentality. So if you're attempting to lecture him about that, you're probably barking up the wrong tree.

The truth is that letting things fly which we knew needed addressing almost killed Injustice during its first year. For all the players yelling "adapt", we didn't get a pass from any other community while the Superman debacle raged on -- instead the game was booed and ridiculed by the rest of the FGC at EVO -- and we were told directly by the head of the Evolution Championship series that the unpatched ridiculousness nearly cost us a second berth at EVO 2014.

That's about as clearly as you can say 'fix your games or else'.

The Capcom community did not stand up and defend the game while it went through Superman/Trident Rush crises -- and our players have made it clear that they don't want to be known for something like that ever again. So now that improvements have been made, we'll see who's really ready to 'adapt', and who will use these soft excuses to stop playing a game that they were probably not very skilled at or dedicated to in the first place.

 

[CubaKahn]

It's been said that the patches are too focused on nerfing the high tier and not enough for the low tier.

Which, herp-derp isn't true.

Kitana received a truckload of buffs.
Shinnok received a bunch of buffs.
Reptile was given buffs, maybe not what the community wanted but he did get a fair amount of buffs the patch before last.
As did Takeda.
As did Hat Trick Lao.
As did Goro.


The nerfs to the top tiers, with a few exceptions, have been fairly minimal.

The agendas are extremely transparent in this thread from certain posters.

I literally could not believe how blatantly wrong that assessment was. It's one thing to have strong opinions and another to just spout untruths like that. Luckily its all the usual suspects.

 

[Alright RyRy]

Every single patch makes this game better. If you are not seeing this then you do not understand the game, or what NRS is trying to accomplish.

I want to watch / go to 10 different majors and see a different set of Top 8 characters at each major, not Kabal Kenshi and Kung Lao etc.

This game is already better than MK9 and Injustice in there current state balance wise. EVERY character in this game is viable. Not alot of games can say that so early in a games life.

 

[haketh]

This game is already better than MK9 and Injustice in there current state balance wise. EVERY character in this game is viable. Not alot of games can say that so early in a games life.

Usually the only time this is said IS early in a games lifes

 

[Alright RyRy]

Usually the only time this is said IS early in a games lifes

No, that is why they have patches / hotfixes to buff the lower tier character and nerf the high tier characters to balance the game out. As they did not do the appropriate fixes in those games is why they are unbalanced unlike this game.

This isn't the case of we do not "know / understand" the character. The meta of this game after the 1st month was equivalent to about 5-6 months of MK9.

 

[PPJ]

page 25

Obviously a patch a few days before CEO was unfortunate timing, but that's a different issue people should be angered about, instead of blaming patching as a whole for "killing" the game and scene

 

[Jynks]

isn't there like a MAJOR event like every week.. I think the longest we have gone is 2 weeks, and that is not including the Euro Scene... so like exactly when is NRS supposed to wait to release these things. The Torny scene should not even factor in their schedule process, except maybe for Evo, as that is basically a trade show for the companies in many ways.

 

[buyacushun]

isn't there like a MAJOR event like every week.. I think the longest we have gone is 2 weeks, and that is not including the Euro Scene... so like exactly when is NRS supposed to wait to release these thing. The Torny scene should not even factor in their schedule process, except maybe for Evo, as that is basically a trade show for the companies in many ways.

Which is why they should at least tell us a week before what is going to happen. Not just drop it whenever and we make due with what we can. Some players probably didn't have a chance to test out new things. At least with letting us know frame changes we can do the math ourselves and figure out what's possible and what's not. This also would allow tourneys to play on an older patch if everyone wants to. Instead of scrabbling to get all the systems on the same page. Then if the tourney is going to play on the previous version players can easily disconnect their systems to practice things.

That's thing I don't like about this thread. People are still focusing on trying to prove it either works or it doesn't. No one is going to get anywhere with that because it's always gonna work and not work. Just the way things pan out with all the possible character matchups. If they are going to patch so much so quickly NRS should tell us what's going to happen before it does and some of these patch notes make it feel like they need to take more time before they release the game. There is way more to this than "patch it now" and "patch it later".

 

[Jynks]

well I asked a question. I didn't take any "side".. so yeah.. a bit of hyperbole there but I get your point.

Still, I think it is the events responsibility to set patch cut off dates during its conception, not NRS's responsibility to monitor the entire planet and try and work out a global lull in witch to release a balance patch. Evo has a patch cut off date.. (8th or something, a day after Predator right?) More events need to do this. Wouldn't that fix this problem for the players you were talking about?

 

[buyacushun]

well I asked a question. I didn't take any "side".. so yeah.. a bit of hyperbole there but I get your point.

Still, I think it is the events responsibility to set patch cut off dates during its conception, not NRS's responsibility to monitor the entire planet and try and work out a global lull in witch to release a balance patch. Evo has a patch cut off date.. (8th or something, a day after Predator right?) More events need to do this. Wouldn't that fix this problem for the players you were talking about?

I didn't mean you did but was more addressing everyone that does, sorry bout that. Patch cutoff dates can fix this. I just don't see why not give the players a heads up when NRS has full control. I think they are the only studio who does that which is probably why this was such a problem in the first place. So either or really would solve it.

 

[DevilMaySpy]

Viscant makes valid points, but I think there are valid points on both ends of the spectrum. It is a fact that a huge turn off for our games is the constant patching, because people who play other games or come from other communities aren't used to having to relearn a character, matchup, or the system several times a month. However, it is also a fact that these patches do help the game more than they hurt it. These recent patches took out all of the bullshit blockstrings that quite frankly no one needs. Tempest Lao is still really good and so is D'Vorah. My issue with patches comes from things like Cassie, Liu Kang, and Scorpion players having to learn all new combos because our original BnBs were rendered obsolete. I can see how this is incredibly annoying to someone who doesn't primarily play MK and cannot invest the time into relearning major things like that constantly. This is why our tournament numbers inevitably drop off or others just drop the game completely. Some will say "Well, screw them, they weren't here for the long haul anyway." but I don't like that attitude. I think we should be striving to expand the community instead of being content with our niche group.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Tbh this doesn't make sense. The number of copies a fighting game sells from becoming balanced 6 months down the line is insignificant. The people who actually care or even understand that kind of stuff is such a small percentage of their sales. They make a lot more money putting out new games, which is why they stop, put out an ultimate edition type thing, and work full-time on the next game.

Paulo and John spend a ton of time watching tournaments, browsing TYM, and interacting with us. I'm sure they'd like to perfect their games, but it's not up to them.

THIS doesn't make any sense, and shows a lack of knowledge in the industry. You guys really don't know the difference between the publisher and the developer at all do you? The Publisher does NOT tell the developer what to work on, it will say what they want done for any release that they may be publishing, but if NRS wants to patch a release they currently have out, there is absolutely nothing stopping them.

Also, I think you guys are LARGELY overrating the amount of effort it would take a studio the size of NRS to tweak some numbers as far as balance patches go further down the line.

 

[UltraDavid]

When SF5 comes out, lets say that some top NRS players pick up the game and start playing it. If they are strongly complaining about SF5 and are threatening to quit, please do not listen to them. They have not shown that they actually care about SF5 or its scene. Their opinions could be very harmful to the true SF5 scene if they are taken seriously. Listen to the players that have proven that they really care about SF4 and it's long term health. NRS players should be treated as guests with respect, but should not have a major voice to any changes that might occur to SF5.

No no, this is crazy talk. If you like SF5 and want to play SF5, then be vocal about it. SF4 players don't have any more importance to it than anyone else. Please don't expect other scenes to be as insular as this one is.

 

[coolwhip]

You know what's irritating? Not the fact that they quit the game due to patching (allegedly) -- that's their right and they're free to do as they please. What's irritating is they still feel equipped and qualified to tell us whether these patches were warranted or not, or simply wonder whether they could have been unwarranted, despite the fact that the last time they had bothered to play the past two games with any measure of seriousness was 3 months into their respective life-span. Sorry, but if you quit playing MK9 after EVO 2011, you are in no position to discuss its patches and whether they could have been unwarranted.

Hate to go back to the Cyrax command grab thing but it's the most glaring example. Baffling as it is, I'm fine with that being the straw that broke the camel's back for Ultra David and it made him quit (though I've no idea how an unblockable 50% combo could be defensible). But if you've actually followed MK9's evolution and how the meta ended up developing, you'd know how Cyrax regulated footsies in many match-ups with his d4, which had stupid reach and the most advantage in the game on hit (for a low poke). As Cyrax players leveled up, they understood what an insanely good tool that was (Maxter was the first, then DJT took it to a whole other level). Had the command grab bomb trap somehow stayed in the game, it would have meant that every time a Cyrax player counter-poked or whiff punished with a d4, you are stuck in a guessing game for your life. If you even have the balls to read a command grab and try to tech and he does 12~net, it's ggs. And if you block expecting a string and he does the command grab, it's also ggs. That has to be one of the most skewed risk-reward quasi-guessing games that I've ever seen, especially since he can stagger a block string and then go for the command grab so you're hardly off the hook for guessing right.

Then, you factor in all the stupid and flat out broke shit that Cyrax players found later on such as breaker traps and retarded unbreakable damage, and Cyrax would have been a contender for one of the most broken characters in fighting game history. He was pretty bad as it was anyway.

So yeah sorry, but it's hard to stomach those who didn't stick long enough to see how the game unfolded scolding NRS players about not understanding their own games by citing examples from other, vastly different games. It's one thing to read Viscant talk about MKX since he still plays it, or Ultra David talk about Injustice since he stuck to the end, and it's another hearing them and others talk about games they stopped following closely 3 months into their life span.

Also, and sorry for sounding like a filthy casual here, but video games, even on a competitive level, have to have at least SOME fun to them. There was nothing fun about vanilla Injustice. Sorry but that game fell extremely flat early on. Superman was legitimately one of the most boring characters to watch, play, or play against that I can recall in recent memory. So yeah, you could wonder whether players would have ultimately found a way to deal with pre-patch f23 two years into the game, but that statement is extremely speculative and based on nothing. And yes, citing examples from other games still counts as nothing, because knowing what we know about Injustice, there was very little players could have done about f23. Not to mention, even if they did, nobody would have wanted to deal with that shit for 2 years because I can't think of anything less fun to fight against.

 

[rev0lver]

THIS doesn't make any sense, and shows a lack of knowledge in the industry. You guys really don't know the difference between the publisher and the developer at all do you? The Publisher does NOT tell the developer what to work on, it will say what they want done for any release that they may be publishing, but if NRS wants to patch a release they currently have out, there is absolutely nothing stopping them.

Also, I think you guys are LARGELY overrating the amount of effort it would take a studio the size of NRS to tweak some numbers as far as balance patches go further down the line.

The developer is NRS. I'm talking about the individual design team such as Paulo and John. If Ed is like "no, I want you guys focusing on this to make some more big paychecks in a couple years" he does dictate what those guys do. NRS isn't just the guys making the game lol. Paulo can't just make patches no questions asked

 

[I GOT HANDS]

The developer is NRS. I'm talking about the individual design team such as Paulo and John. If Ed is like "no, I want you guys focusing on this to make some more big paychecks in a couple years" he does dictate what those guys do. NRS isn't just the guys making the game lol. Paulo can't just make patches no questions asked

I never once mentioned Paulo.

All I've said is that we can't blame Warner Brothers for this, and the decision is NRS's.



How does that statement, in any way, not make any sense? Because what you just said agrees with it.

 

[Slips]

See, fisticuffs cage would have been fine if only Quan and erron were the problems, but because takeda is such a poorly designed character, we have to make a massive nerf like having all hits of b121 being -3. Even for shit tier Mileena, learning how to deal with fisticuffs took about 2 seconds. My issue with the patches is that they're all about removing the dynamism from the game and focusing waaaaay more on nerfs than buffing the low tiers, which is the exact argument of what Ed Boon himself said he'd do.

Which brings us to the bigger point: why is NRS nerfing the fundamental tools of these characters? The frame data is available to them; they ostensibly understand the game they're making, so why is it that Liu Kang keeps swinging up and down the tier list with every patch? why wasn't Tanya's potential broken movelist caught early on? why was swarm queen deemed "too good" after 2 months when that's literally how they designed the game?

I think the very base issue is that this game was very poorly planned and executed and focused way more on business opportunities (microtransactions, preorder characters, country themed DLC costumes, etc.) than actual gameplay. The sales potential of keeping the game on Unreal Engine 3 and porting to previous-gen totally backfired as well, so we have a game that is literally so monkey patched to death that it can't be ported easily and also suffers from last gen issues like horrific netcode.

The rapid patching is merely symptomatic of a much deeper illness, and it's not worth investing time into a game that might end up being completely different 6 months from now. It's also not worth investing time in a game where the developers seem so clueless and/or cash driven that the actual game itself comes secondary to how much cruft they can get people to purchase.

P.S. I would feel genuinely bad for any player who thought reading the patch notes was all they needed to do. Multiple characters have been stealth buffed and nerfed majorly to the point where you're forced to lab every character again.

You bring up some good points that I would like to address. Yes NRS has all the data and with enough testing they could probably find a lot of this stuff before release...if they had time. NRS has deadlines to meet, content they need to make sure is working, and a bunch of other stuff we take for granted. Balance is the last thing to address.

And yes I agree with you. NRS is more focused on sales than gameplay. They are a business first though. That's how it should be. NRS sold millions upon millions of copies. They made Warner Bros. millions of dollars. They are a successful business. They focus on sales to the casual player first, then then the tournament player second.

It's not want people want to hear, but that's how it should be. We as tournament players can't take such a selfish attitude of demanding that NRS cater to the 3% of the people that buy their game before the other 97%. That's ludicrous. And the fact NRS spends months watching us play and reading our complaints in forums and hearing them out should be considered a blessing. Not a detriment.

NRS with their games makes more money than Street Fighter and Marvel. That's a fact. Capcom was in so much trouble that Sony had to bail them out in order for them to make SFV.

NRS is doing better than Capcom. Their business model is working while Capcom pretty much relies on their legacy to stay afloat. We don't have to worry about NRS going under because they know how to make money first, and then make their game competitive second.

All the more reason NRS's way of doing things should be considered a good thing. Not a bad thing.