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Paragon General Discussion Thread

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
Grux is extremely good in the new meta, even if you are "just" jungling, you can have a huge impact on the outcome of the game simply because of his amazing lane clear speed. If a lane is left vacant, especially the blue lane, then there is no way the enemy can rotate fast enough to gank you if you choose to push the lane a bit. With blue buff cdr you can instakill 2 full waves without waiting for the pull to become available again, go take the side harvester and go and finish your rotation taking that sides white camps and harvester while the minions go on to take down a tower by themselves. If you have to cover for a dead or recalled team mate, enemy laners will generally leave you alone and not even really try to poke you because of fear of the pull. Other junglers, especially Khaimera or Rampage can't really stop a tower from taking heavy dmg upon arriving slightly too late when the meeting point of the minion waves is already on the tower platform. Grux arrives, pulls into 1 auto attack, into double pain and the entire wave or even merged wave melts right there.
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
Btw Kwang has some interesting team fight synergies, aside from the usual Howie/Dekker broteam he can benefit those 2 greatly as well, in one game I saw enemy Howie panic ult to escape a gank, those usually don't do much dmg without Dekker's fence, but the enemy Kwang was there to tether one guy to the sword for long enough to make the last salvo of the ult connect and secure the kill.
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
The +15 jungle minion dmg buff from Beastmaster's key doesn't scale with Khaimera's unleash ability, as in the dmg penalty doesn't apply. Essentially if you go Beastmaster's key first, you lose your level 2 gank ability, but get faster harvesters. You could go blue side jungle first, take both white camps, wait for them to respawn and take them again, install harvester on blue buff jungle then go on blue lane to install the side harvester and recall. After that go with Flashfire piston and strike token. I usually build 12p Flashfire piston on both Rampage and Khaimera, and slot 3p dmg, 3p atk speed and 4p atk speed. Strike token is ditched to complete the FFP and get the 4p necessary for the last atk speed upgrade.

Alternatively and especially at lower ELO you could go with FFP and strike token first and get help on red buff camp so you have the ability to gank at player level 2 (get regen first, then unleash) as you hit lvl 2, granted that you last hit the red camp and 1 white camp.
 

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
weekly pack this week is nuts.
tainted magick, blinkshot and scarab claws!!
going to have to start playing more coruption chars lol

i now have all epic cards now with this patch that was missing these two :)
the wait for chieftons crown goes on though
 

Skedar70

Noob
any tips for Sparrow build? I know she is bottom tier but I still try with her and I actually don't lose that much. I usually don't die but I also miss on kills so I go about even. What I currently do is just stay defending my lanes and farm but I feel like I could do something better.
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
weekly pack this week is nuts.
tainted magick, blinkshot and scarab claws!!
going to have to start playing more coruption chars lol

i now have all epic cards now with this patch that was missing these two :)
the wait for chieftons crown goes on though
Sucks for me since I already have those. Iggy with Tainted magick shuts down Khaimera hard unless he has Bud Of The Changeling. I asked one streamer if the Suppression mode buff on Grim's auto attacks applies tainted magick but he said it doesn't, damn it would be crazy if it did (or OP lol).

I just got lvl 50 and bought 8 card packs, got 2 cards that I didn't previously have which were Charging brute and Lazarus key. Only good cards that I am missing are fury cards like Firepiercer, Incessant onslaught, Bone dice, Hearthshot and Injured Rage and then I am pretty much all set... oh and I don't have Honor The Pure from order affinity, but after I get those I am pretty much all set, although I'd like more minor guards since I only got 1 and I got no 1p physical pen upgrades.
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
There are some cheeky things you can do with the ramparts spread across the lanes as Murdock, especially the mid lane ones since you can push people down from really high up and block the narrow passages with his static traps if people allow you to camp there for too long.

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There is a link to a game I played to demonstrate this, it's some real blooper material, just check the box for my kills (Murdock / Lastenmurskaajah), they all take place late game within 20 minutes and the final stand-off that leads to me killing 2 people at once on my own and taking an inhibitor after that is pretty hilarious :D
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
any tips for Sparrow build? I know she is bottom tier but I still try with her and I actually don't lose that much. I usually don't die but I also miss on kills so I go about even. What I currently do is just stay defending my lanes and farm but I feel like I could do something better.
She is the only ADC I don't play, but there are some basic guidelines to building all ADC's.

Ok first off, I will talk about survivability/EHP (effective hit points). Building one armor type (physical) and ignoring the other doesn't work on Sparrow, since you have no means of escaping energy dmg AOE's and other abilities besides blink charm. I've seen Sparrows go with Thorned Greenweave and Spiked boneplate, however having these cards means you have to steady the power curve by having 6p tuned barrier and tempered plate, and later on going with 12p growth armor cards. with 9p growth armor cards you would only have 154 armor if you slot all armor and that doesn't cut it since people generally build penetration to go through those amounts like butter. With 12p cards you could work around having more dmg over armor on one or the other armor card instead of armor but this is kinda garbo as well, you don't have enough HP to get much value out of having armor so you would have to have a blink charm as well, this means you would only have 3 cards to get your dmg, pen and atk speed from and those would be Windcarver blade, Stonetooth heart and Guardian's ward, but then you won't have enough dmg to do what you are supposed to do.

Ok so what does this all mean? It means it's easier to just build health. If you build a lot of health you won't get much value out of lifesteal or health regen either, so after taking heavy dmg you are generally forced to recall, but with ADC's you have to compromise a lot when it comes to your EHP as you are not really supposed to take dmg anyway, you just need a good amount of health or armor to survive the occasional Kallari, Countess, Feng Mao and Khaimera dives and those characters applying their full kits on you. You still gotta have enough health left over after getting manhandled for your team mates to have time to peel or CC for you or focus the diver down.

some cards that I think you should consider are some of the following:

Stonetooth heart - This card is pretty much mandatory for you to get your penetration from since Growth/Order have terrible options for penetration. If you don't have this card or enough penetration upgrades then you must go with the 10p Fist of Kings card or Genesis torch. 64 pen is a bare minimum so you can go through base armor and structure armor, but as you are a physical dmg dealer you will need a lot more, upwards from 80-96 to up to 144. You ought to build your decks in a way so you can slot either more health if you don't need that much pen (less armor on enemies generally means more dmg on them, so having to slot more health instead of pen works out perfectly).

Guardian's ward - slots dmg and health, the go-to ward as Sparrow. Brawler's ward is the other option if you don't have it, everyone has that card (slots dmg and mana). as early wards are mandatory, dmg for last hitting and defending your tower is needed and since you only have 1p worth of dmg from full completion, making this card cost 12p with 3x 3p major strikes is an ok move.

Windcarver blade or Swiftcreek heart - to get your atk speed from, how much atk speed is needed is a personal preference, I would go between 33 - 60,5 extra atk speed. With more atk speed you can stack your passive faster though, combined with your ultimate. if you go with Swiftcreek heart, combined with Stonetooth heart and Guardian's ward, you will already have a base of 900 health so adding a 3p health upgrade on any of those ought to give you a decent amount of health to work with, having more or less depends on your personal preferences and your team comp, as well as enemy comp (extra 900 health isn't going to cut it if there is a Countess or Kallari on the other team).

Blink charm - This is mandatory, you will have games where people couldn't care less about supporting you or peeling for you, even if you do have a kick ass Riktor, Steel or Narby/Dekker/Muriel to bro-team with, you still need this card.

2 other cards you will have should increase your dmg, pen, atk speed or health having more of the same passives as already mentioned should cut it, maybe throw in an Amulet of the veteran or Adamant Edge in there as empty cards, then simply have dmg and health upgrades on the unallocated upgrade pool and choose one or the other... or both.

Last card could be a situational card, I've watched streamer games with people who have CHARGING BRUTE (extra movement speed on unit kills) and that allows Sparrow to push a side lane forward enough to not have winions take a tier 2 tower and then join a team fight on the middle lane shortly after it has started, the card costs 5p and has 1p dmg and slots dmg. In team fights it could also allow you to hit a fleeing enemy and keep stacking your passive after you have already killed someone. SPLINTERBARK VEST could also work out, as hitting the enemy front line with your ultimate and that card active would shred their physical armor, allowing your frontline to maybe get an upper hand on them. Could be a vital card if you get a 4 physical and 1 energy dmg dealer comp and enemies would be building physical armor over health. you could also have HUNTER'S GUILE (removes all debuffs on activation, slots dmg and health) to escape CC's, especially something like a Riktor with Stab link diving you who would otherwise totally F' you up with his kit and with the help of the rest of his team.

Your full build must meet the following conditions:

178 dmg auto attack dmg on creeps is a bare minimum for ADC, I would go at least 200, upwards from 226 you hit a point of diminishing returns since after that point all that extra dammy is taken from your survivability and with less than 1k extra health all it really takes is some CC and a few people focusing you and you won't even get a chance to use your blink charm.

upwards from 64 physical penetration, minimum of 33 extra atk speed, around 1k extra health at least. I've seen someone do reasonably well with both armor types but I wouldn't recommend it.

as Blink charm costs 5p you will need to have a card that costs either 10 or 13p to balance it out. Otherwise go with 9p or 12p cards. Please note that Stonetooth and Swiftcreek heart cards cost 4p with 3p worth of health end loaded, making them cost 9p with at least one 2p upgrade is advisable (if you don't replace 1p cards with them) so you don't get floating points and your power curve is more optimal. Have those cards replace your early 1p cards so you don't get floating points.

Oh and BTW crit is useless, don't even consider it, especially on Sparrow and TB it's complete and utter waste of points. You have to build way too squishy to get any value out of crit and people can just negate crit with physical armor. Melees will dive you and there is absolutely nothing anybody can do to save you. Rampage pops his ult, jumps on you, insta boulders you, hits you a few times and you are dead, you won't even get a chance to blink out if you are building crit and without blink and just extra health you'll die anyway. With blink and extra health you wont have enough pen, or if you do have enough pen than your base dmg or crit chance will be too low.

In terms of general gameplay I've had similar feelings and problems as you, at some point in the mid-late game you have to tell your caster to go and watch the side lanes instead of ganging up on middle lane with 1 or both melees, mid-to-late game someone has to force a fight if you have the CXP advantage and you have to be there to dish out the dmg so you can get an advantage with 1-3 kills and maybe take a tier 2 or inhibitor or get OP buff after that, then just gang up again and take mid tier 2 or inhibitor with OP active. If your side lane tier 1 is still up after reaching 60 cxp or the 40 minute mark then you just have to let it go if you have the chance to get some kills by ganging up and then getting OP to win the game.
 
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Skedar70

Noob
She is the only ADC I don't play, but there are some basic guidelines to building all ADC's.

Ok first off, I will talk about survivability/EHP (effective hit points). Building one armor type (physical) and ignoring the other doesn't work on Sparrow, since you have no means of escaping energy dmg AOE's and other abilities besides blink charm. I've seen Sparrows go with Thorned Greenweave and Spiked boneplate, however having these cards means you have to steady the power curve by having 6p tuned barrier and tempered plate, and later on going with 12p growth armor cards. with 9p growth armor cards you would only have 154 armor if you slot all armor and that doesn't cut it since people generally build penetration to go through those amounts like butter. With 12p cards you could work around having more dmg over armor on one or the other armor card instead of armor but this is kinda garbo as well, you don't have enough HP to get much value out of having armor so you would have to have a blink charm as well, this means you would only have 3 cards to get your dmg, pen and atk speed from and those would be Windcarver blade, Stonetooth heart and Guardian's ward, but then you won't have enough dmg to do what you are supposed to do.

Ok so what does this all mean? It means it's easier to just build health. If you build a lot of health you won't get much value out of lifesteal or health regen either, so after taking heavy dmg you are generally forced to recall, but with ADC's you have to compromise a lot when it comes to your EHP as you are not really supposed to take dmg anyway, you just need a good amount of health or armor to survive the occasional Kallari, Countess, Feng Mao and Khaimera dives and those characters applying their full kits on you. You still gotta have enough health left over after getting manhandled for your team mates to have time to peel or CC for you or focus the diver down.

some cards that I think you should consider are some of the following:

Stonetooth heart - This card is pretty much mandatory for you to get your penetration from since Growth/Order have terrible options for penetration. If you don't have this card or enough penetration upgrades then you must go with the 10p Fist of Kings card or Genesis torch. 64 pen is a bare minimum so you can go through base armor and structure armor, but as you are a physical dmg dealer you will need a lot more, upwards from 80-96 to up to 144. You ought to build your decks in a way so you can slot either more health if you don't need that much pen (less armor on enemies generally means more dmg on them, so having to slot more health instead of pen works out perfectly).

Guardian's ward - slots dmg and health, the go-to ward as Sparrow. Brawler's ward is the other option if you don't have it, everyone has that card (slots dmg and mana). as early wards are mandatory, dmg for last hitting and defending your tower is needed and since you only have 1p worth of dmg from full completion, making this card cost 12p with 3x 3p major strikes is an ok move.

Windcarver blade or Swiftcreek heart - to get your atk speed from, how much atk speed is needed is a personal preference, I would go between 33 - 60,5 extra atk speed. With more atk speed you can stack your passive faster though, combined with your ultimate. if you go with Swiftcreek heart, combined with Stonetooth heart and Guardian's ward, you will already have a base of 900 health so adding a 3p health upgrade on any of those ought to give you a decent amount of health to work with, having more or less depends on your personal preferences and your team comp, as well as enemy comp (extra 900 health isn't going to cut it if there is a Countess or Kallari on the other team).

Blink charm - This is mandatory, you will have games where people couldn't care less about supporting you or peeling for you, even if you do have a kick ass Riktor, Steel or Narby/Dekker/Muriel to bro-team with, you still need this card.

2 other cards you will have should increase your dmg, pen, atk speed or health having more of the same passives as already mentioned should cut it, maybe throw in an Amulet of the veteran or Adamant Edge in there as empty cards, then simply have dmg and health upgrades on the unallocated upgrade pool and choose one or the other... or both.

Last card could be a situational card, I've watched streamer games with people who have CHARGING BRUTE (extra movement speed on unit kills) and that allows Sparrow to push a side lane forward enough to not have winions take a tier 2 tower and then join a team fight on the middle lane shortly after it has started, the card costs 5p and has 1p dmg and slots dmg. In team fights it could also allow you to hit a fleeing enemy and keep stacking your passive after you have already killed someone. SPLINTERBARK VEST could also work out, as hitting the enemy front line with your ultimate and that card active would shred their physical armor, allowing your frontline to maybe get an upper hand on them. Could be a vital card if you get a 4 physical and 1 energy dmg dealer comp and enemies would be building physical armor over health. you could also have HUNTER'S GUILE (removes all debuffs on activation, slots dmg and health) to escape CC's, especially something like a Riktor with Stab link diving you who would otherwise totally F' you up with his kit and with the help of the rest of his team.

Your full build must meet the following conditions:

178 dmg auto attack dmg on creeps is a bare minimum for ADC, I would go at least 200, upwards from 226 you hit a point of diminishing returns since after that point all that extra dammy is taken from your survivability and with less than 1k extra health all it really takes is some CC and a few people focusing you and you won't even get a chance to use your blink charm.

upwards from 64 physical penetration, minimum of 33 extra atk speed, around 1k extra health at least. I've seen someone do reasonably well with both armor types but I wouldn't recommend it.

as Blink charm costs 5p you will need to have a card that costs either 10 or 13p to balance it out. Otherwise go with 9p or 12p cards. Please note that Stonetooth and Swiftcreek heart cards cost 4p with 3p worth of health end loaded, making them cost 9p with at least one 2p upgrade is advisable (if you don't replace 1p cards with them) so you don't get floating points and your power curve is more optimal. Have those cards replace your early 1p cards so you don't get floating points.

Oh and BTW crit is useless, don't even consider it, especially on Sparrow and TB it's complete and utter waste of points. You have to build way too squishy to get any value out of crit and people can just negate crit with physical armor. Melees will dive you and there is absolutely nothing anybody can do to save you. Rampage pops his ult, jumps on you, insta boulders you, hits you a few times and you are dead, you won't even get a chance to blink out if you are building crit and without blink and just extra health you'll die anyway. With blink and extra health you wont have enough pen, or if you do have enough pen than your base dmg or crit chance will be too low.

In terms of general gameplay I've had similar feelings and problems as you, at some point in the mid-late game you have to tell your caster to go and watch the side lanes instead of ganging up on middle lane with 1 or both melees, mid-to-late game someone has to force a fight if you have the CXP advantage and you have to be there to dish out the dmg so you can get an advantage with 1-3 kills and maybe take a tier 2 or inhibitor or get OP buff after that, then just gang up again and take mid tier 2 or inhibitor with OP active. If your side lane tier 1 is still up after reaching 60 cxp or the 40 minute mark then you just have to let it go if you have the chance to get some kills by ganging up and then getting OP to win the game.
Thanks for your reply. I will be in the lookout for these cards and continue experimenting. I recently changed my build and moved away from crit in favor of physical damage and speed and I have done better. I'm on the search for these health cards and specially charging brute and blink charm. I haven't been able to get the guardians ward so I use brawlers.
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
New hero looks extremely bland and boring. Another tanky fighter zzz... Twinblast rework and another ranger is long overdue. At least Countess brought something new to the table.
 

Pterodactyl

Plus on block.
I fucking love everything I'm seeing and hearing about Crunch.

I love that they really thought outside of the box with his kit. The combo system and empowering mechanic sound super fun and interesting, the passive that lowers CD on every basic attack sounds nuts too if you build him for attack speed. He has a lot more skill management than I would have assumed.

I don't think there's a bland hero in the bunch to be honest.

His name is Crunch.

He likes to punch.
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
https://www.epicgames.com/paragon/en-US/news/new-hero-reveal-crunch

Didn't know about the combo system or his other abilities, I just proceeded to instantly judge based on the announcement trailer, because I really wanted another ADC :D. I wonder if he is a laner or a jungler (my guess is on jungler). If he could drag lane minions with him using his empowered forward crunch, he could stack them together like Grux and then use left crunch for some more AOE dmg. As a jungler he would be able to drag people into towers or at least slow them down. However, he is going to spend shitloads of mana. I am guessing it might be better to simply build him with a bigger health and mana pool rather than have any regen of either kind or lifesteal and just recall often. As he is Fury/Order you might throw a silverspear on him and have a bigger mana pool and health regen from that though. If you just conserve your mana for PVP fights you could have a sustained presence that way.
 
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Pterodactyl

Plus on block.
https://www.epicgames.com/paragon/en-US/news/new-hero-reveal-crunch

Didn't know about the combo system or his other abilities, I just proceeded to instantly judge based on the announcement trailer, because I really wanted another ADC :D. I wonder if he is a laner or a jungler (my guess is on jungler). If he could drag lane minions with him using his empowered forward crunch, he could stack them together like Grux and then use left crunch for some more AOE dmg. As a jungler he would be able to drag people into towers or at least slow them down. However, he is going to spend shitloads of mana. I am guessing it might be better to simply build him with a bigger health and mana pool rather than have any regen of either kind or lifesteal and just recall often. As he is Fury/Order you might throw a silverspear on him and have a bigger mana pool and health regen from that though. If you just conserve your mana for PVP fights you could have a sustained presence that way.
I get the feeling his abilities will cost less mana and do a bit less damage than most characters given his mechanics.

I wonder how his frame cancels will impact his gameplay.
 

Smoke_Of_Finland

Believe in the hop kick
Got a new PC and tried to play the game a bit in Co-op VS AI. Haven't really played since the Monolith update, feels pretty surreal when you don't know half of what's going on lol.