Discussion NRS Patching - Genuine Balance or Mere Tier Shifting?

[xSMoKEx]

My issue with the patches is that everything seems so... overdone? I guess that would be a good word for it. I understand that due to certain constraints they can only release x amount of patches, and I believe that this causes them to try to push as much changes into a patch as possible, when realistically very few tweaks are needed.

How many times throughout their previous 3 titles have you read patch notes expecting a fairly obvious nerf/buff to a couple of characters, then continue reading to find that they changed another character's properties, gave him armor, a new attack, more damage, took away some block advantage, etc when it wasn't even a problem to begin with. It's like they just change shit for the sake of changing it sometimes. "We have 4 more patches to go, better buff Mid_Tier_Character123 so that hes not weak in the long run!", only to realize that Mid_Tier_Character123 was already underdeveloped and didnt need changes at all.

If you want to nerf an S Tier character you hit them lightly across multiple iterations until they are at a suitable place, you do NOT want to over nerf these characters. Why? A character being top tier almost always has a direct correlation to how much they are played (unless they have an unbelievably high skill cap, but such a factor is a non-issue in NRS titles thus far, Kabal has probably been the best example but even he was played a lot). If you over nerf a character that is played by a large portion of the community you now run into the issue of A.) not only having the re-tune said character but B.) buffing them enough so that all of the now disgruntled players are happy with the changes. It's a difficult line to walk. Rather than overnerfing, then having to panic buff cause everyone is in a knee-jerk reaction freaking out saying that the character is now trash, JUST SLOWLY TUNE THE CHARACTER.

I'd rather an S tier character remain S Tier for another patch or two, but still be taken down a notch each time, until we finally reach that nice balance of B/A tier, than them flip flop from S, to C, back to A, then to S again. Not only that, but the more time you give the community with a current iteration of a character the more accurate a buff/nerf can be assessed. I apologize for the MK9 analogies but im really not all familliar with MKX so here goes:

Lets assume that MK9 got another balance patch after 1.05 a few months after and patching proceeded as normal. The changes made during that next patch would look a lot different than changes made if they patched the game again right now, because we've had years to sit on the game and it's characters. Now we don't need to go to that extent, but slowly changing that character over a couple months and letting us sit on that "iteration" of the character for awhile can be beneficial.

This leads me to my next point which is that NRS tends to change the properties on moves a little too much. A lot of times characters can be balanced simply by tweaking numbers, but then they add or remove armor to random shit, change hitboxes and hurtboxes occasionally, buff random moves to compensate, etc etc. Its just a huge curveball when it comes to balancing, a lot of times it isnt that difficult to balance a character. You'd be surprised what a few percent can do to a character who relies heavily on mix-ups/resets, a couple percent each combo could be the difference between killing an opponent in 2, 3 or even 4 mixups.

Also obligatory mention that safe/advantage 50/50's are bullshit

 

[shura30]

My issue with the patches is that everything seems so... overdone? I guess that would be a good word for it. I understand that due to certain constraints they can only release x amount of patches, and I believe that this causes them to try to push as much changes into a patch as possible, when realistically very few tweaks are needed.

too many players still think that game balance should be evaluated over the result of a few hundred games from a restricted number of players loyal to an even smaller character roster

changes to less popular characters need and should still happen
because a developer in charge of balance should look at the whole game not the portion mentioned above

common healthy denominator to each balance discussion is the fact that tools removed with previous patch shouldn't be added to new or to-be-buffed characters as well as massive plus frames just because a character might be so poorly designed and developed that requires some degree of brokennes to be viable

 

[God Confirm]

i dont like this logic, that some characters not being able to have something means that all characters cant have it

no, every character is different

LK gets to keep jailing pressure because its what the character relies on. Hellfire lost jailing pressure because he gets +40% for a bar into flame aura restand pressure anywhere on screen.

just because something is imbalanced somewhere doesnt mean its imbalanced everywhere. moves arent necessarily removed because they are unfit for the game entirely, often just unfit for the character/ comparing individual moves in a vacuum will never be accurate unless the characters are carbon copies on everything else too

 

[M2Dave]

i dont like this logic, that some characters not being able to have something means that all characters cant have it

no, every character is different

LK gets to keep jailing pressure because its what the character relies on. Hellfire lost jailing pressure because he gets +40% for a bar into flame aura restand pressure anywhere on screen.

just because something is imbalanced somewhere doesnt mean its imbalanced everywhere. moves arent necessarily removed because they are unfit for the game entirely, often just unfit for the character/ comparing individual moves in a vacuum will never be accurate unless the characters are carbon copies on everything else too

Your point is well-taken.

But "every character is different in Mortal Kombat X". You mean barely, if at all, different.

What succeeds in Mortal Kombat X? What is the key gameplay element? What wins tournaments? Whether in the form of a 50/50 mix up, vortex, or pressure, offense always does. To provide a brief example, Crystalline gives Tremor the best offense. Metallic gives Tremor the worst offense. Crystalline is Tremor's best variation while Metallic is the worst. I can list 20 other examples, and, on a side note, the variation system is a failure because almost always the best variation is the one with the best offensive options. The point is the game does not allow other gameplay styles to shine, which is why this game has no zoning and run away character like Zod in Injustice or Nash in Street Fighter V or a pure footsies character like Aquaman in Injustice or Fei Long in Street Fighter IV. If you are not putting your opponents in situations in which they are constantly forced to guess, you cannot win at a high level. Because the game lacks variety, yes, the chances are, albeit not always, if something, usually overpowered offense, is unbalanced for one character, that something will be unbalanced for all other characters, with very few exceptions.

Just give me mk9 with GGPO

I think the vast majority of players asked for a balanced and bug-free Mortal Kombat 9 with an excellent online service. Instead, we received a game that goes 100 an hour and whose offense, at least in prior versions of the game, gave Marvel a run for its money.

 

[God Confirm]

Your point is well-taken.

But "every character is different in Mortal Kombat X". You mean barely, if at all, different.

What succeeds in Mortal Kombat X? What is the key gameplay element? What wins tournaments? Whether in the form of a 50/50 mix up, vortex, or pressure, offense always does. To provide a brief example, Crystalline gives Tremor the best offense. Metallic gives Tremor the worst offense. Crystalline is Tremor's best variation while Metallic is the worst. I can list 20 other examples, and, on a side note, the variation system is a failure because almost always the best variation is the one with the best offensive options. The point is the game does not allow other gameplay styles to shine, which is why this game has no zoning and run away character like Zod in Injustice or Nash in Street Fighter V or a pure footsies character like Aquaman in Injustice or Fei Long in Street Fighter IV. If you are not putting your opponents in situations in which they are constantly forced to guess, you cannot win at a high level. Because the game lacks variety, yes, the chances are, albeit not always, if something, usually overpowered offense, is unbalanced for one character, that something will be unbalanced for all other characters, with very few exceptions.



I think the vast majority of players asked for a balanced and bug-free Mortal Kombat 9 with an excellent online service. Instead, we received a game that goes 100 an hour and whose offense, at least in prior versions of the game, gave Marvel a run for its money.

i agree with that too. There is two sides to the coin of what i just said and that is the other one. I think we are both right to be honest, they don't need to remove something from one character just because someone else couldnt have it because maybe it's not broken on the second character, but that being said, when they remove something from someone, and there is a character out there even stronger with the same thing, its illogical to take say tempests ex hat away but leave Takeda with his

 

[Solid]

I have a few questions, please read till the end. What is the point of all these balance threads right now? What do you guys, that have such a strong opinion on balance, even though you were wrong in the past about character viability, wish to accomplish with a patch right now? Is it for the longevity of this game? Do you guys think that if the game is patched right now you will surely have a shot at beating the players who stuck to the top tiers and dominated top eights? What is the point of that right now?

Even if any of you manage to beat NRS's best player right now it is a little too late. He will still be considered NRS's best player right now and your win won't be as memorable as his countless victories. He has won the big money in MKX and Injustice 2 is around the corner. MKXL is dying if it isn't dead already. Instead of countless threads crying for nerfs and buffs and being experts of the meta, you guys should have played the top tiers instead of sticking to non top tiers characters. Don't get me wrong, I am not defending the game.

There are a lot of things I dislike about MKX but I accepted the fact that this isn't MK9 a long time ago. I know I will get a lot of flack for this post but I don't care. The same phenomenon will repeat itself in Injustice 2. I am planning to compete if I like that game and I will tier whore like no other. What will you guys do?

Edit: I wish someone would be kind enough to edit this for me. Looks horrible.

 

[M2Dave]

I have a few questions, please read till the end.

Perhaps you should then have the courtesy to read my first post till the end.

I did not mention any players. I did not mention beating any players. For the sake of entertaining matches, I wish someone else other than Sonic Fox would win a major tournament once in a while, but I really could not careless.

I did not "cry for buffs and nerfs". I think my character, at least in Crystalline, is a balanced high mid tier character. I enjoy using Tremor as much as I enjoyed using Freddy and Zod. The only mistake I made was not traveling when Tremor was a super top tier character pre-patch.

You ask what is the point of this thread. I, and, judging by the overwhelmingly positive feedback that I have received, many other players in this community, would like to play and watch a game that does not solely revolve around safe 50/50 mix ups. Any game that revolves around and rewards only one gameplay aspect is boring. If the game were nothing but zoning or footsies or turtling, I would claim the game is also boring.

Mortal Kombat 9 and Injustice have much, much more variety in terms of represented gameplay styles, and I am, by the way, not even suggesting safe 50/50 mix ups should not exist. They should, but the entire game should not revolve around them.

 

[The_Tile]

I did not "cry for buffs and nerfs".

As much as I agree with the point youre making I can't not highlight this sentence.

What about the whole "Tremor is abysmal pls buff" fiasco?

 

[M2Dave]

What about the whole "Tremor is abysmal pls buff" fiasco?

Everybody is wrong about something at some point in time. I was wrong about pre-patch Tremor yet right about ten other things, but of course nobody cares about those things. No drama and blowups are involved when you are right about something.

Besides, Tremor buffs and nerfs have absolutely nothing to do with this thread. I use Tremor to this day and preach how he is still good relative to any character who is not top 5. I let Pig and REO stream my matches to prove this point. I have no idea what else you want me to do.

 

[Eldriken]

As much as I agree with the point youre making I can't not highlight this sentence.

What about the whole "Tremor is abysmal pls buff" fiasco?

He admitted he was wrong about that. So, I don't think that should be a factor.

 

[The_Tile]

Everybody is wrong about something at some point in time. I was wrong about pre-patch Tremor yet right about ten other things, but of course nobody cares about those things. No drama and blowups are involved when you are right about something.

Besides, Tremor buffs and nerfs have absolutely nothing to do with this thread. I use Tremor to this day and preach how he is still good relative to any character who is not top 5. I let Pig and REO stream my matches to prove this point. I have no idea what else you want me to do.

I know. It's not like I'm being an ass hole about it or anything. Just you said you didn't cry for any nerfs or buffs, when your whole Tremor drama was literally the biggest cry for buffs on TYM in MKX's lifetime.

It takes a man to admit when he's wrong, and I admire that. Doesn't mean it didn't happen and everyone's just going to forget about it though.

He admitted he was wrong about that. So, I don't think that should be a factor.

Eldriken pls, if any normal user said that after causing as much drama as Dave's thread did then TYM would be all over them regardless of if they apologised or not. Just thought I'd point it out cause of the hypocrisy and now ill leave it at that.

 

[M2Dave]

Sonic Fox cried on Twitter for hours about Sub Zero's original ice clone, yet he consistently abuses the very best characters in the game. Are you going to blow him up too?

 

[The_Tile]

Sonic Fox cried on Twitter for hours about Sub Zero's original ice clone, yet he consistently abuses the very best characters in the game. Are you going to blow him up too?

No. I'm not even "blowing you up", you're just getting too defensive.

You outright said, and I quote, "I did not cry for buffs or nerfs". Well guess what Dave, thats exactly what you did. Whether you apologised about it or cry yourself to sleep everynight with sorrow it doesnt matter, it happened. Sonic Fox isn't out there telling lies like that just to support his argument and try to gain the moral high ground.

I saw some stupidity amongst all the stuff you were saying and just thought I'd highlight it. I'll give you a round of applause and pat on the back for all the good stuff you said if that makes you feel better. But what you said was a straight up lie, I just found it funny.

 

[RiBBz22]

@General M2Dave, the first thing I did when coming into this thread was searching your post for Cyber Sub Zero and turned up no results. You can't even begin to talk about nerfs in this game without talking about the most nuked character in MKX. I am now leaving the thread since it is deemed illegitimate by the RiBBz Council.

 

[Eddy Wang]

He admitted he was wrong about that. So, I don't think that should be a factor.

Also, why the hell are people pointing each other fingers about who was wrong and what not? Instead of focusing on the pressing matter at hands?

"This community" sometimes gets really confusing. :S

 

[Poshib]

At this point, I think it's over with for balancing this game to a point where we WON'T always have a new overbearing top tier. The MK tiers are like a Hydra at this point. What I think more people need to do is just learn to deal within their means, switch characters, or quit the game. This "buff this nerf that" culture has gotten out of hand and I think it's a big reason why some of these characters have gotten so stupid.

Although tiers are definitely a factor in high level play, it's all going to boil down to the player in the end. Perhaps some of you struggle due to personal reasons, or you know, the guy that beat you did so because they were better than you? I'm sure you don't lose every bad matchup that presents itself. Let's just continue to improve and be the best players we can be.

 

[omooba]

quick question. which character was top tier before a huge patch and is currently way below their original tier. i can't think of anyone other than lao and raiden and if that's true i disagree with dave's 1st point

 

[Soul Bound X]

The way this should be handled, and how it should be handled in every fighting game, is only let the top players have a say in the balancing process. They know the game better than nrs themselves so why are they not the only ones consulted? It doesn't make an ounce of sense to me. If this advice was taken I don't believe this would be an issue.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

If there's one thing that's for certain, it's that hindsight is 20/20.

I know there's this common notion that every other fighting game is really balanced, and NRS is somehow just f'ing it up -- but this isn't true.

Look at SFV. Since release, SFV has gotten all kinds of praise for how balanced the game is. Plus, the roster is small, so how hard can it be, right?

Fast forward a few months to EVO.. There are 20 Chun Li's in Top 32 and the Top 8 is almost exclusively the same 3 characters.

What does this mean? It's hard as heck to perfectly balance a game. Look at MKX...

"Kenshi is broken now, why'd they give him so many buffs? Top tier"
"Ferra Torr is ridiculous now, he'll win everything, why'd NRS buff him? Probably the best character in the game now"
... etc.

Just goes to show that it's easy to criticize things long after the fact. Patching is hard.

The truth is that not every character needs to be top tier. Quan Chi is fine. He may not be the best, but he's by no means the worst, either. If every character that's moved down to around mid-tier is "over nerfed", you're being way to harsh about the balancing process. If Alien becomes mid-tier in a patch, that's fine -- it's not the end of the world just because he's no longer tops.

 

[B. Shazzy]

If there's one thing that's for certain, it's that hindsight is 20/20.

I know there's this common notion that every other fighting game is really balanced, and NRS is somehow just f'ing it up -- but this isn't true.

Look at SFV. Since release, SFV has gotten all kinds of praise for how balanced the game is. Plus, the roster is small, so how hard can it be, right?

Fast forward a few months to EVO.. There are 20 Chun Li's in Top 32 and the Top 8 is almost exclusively the same 3 characters.

What does this mean? It's hard as heck to perfectly balance a game. Look at MKX...

"Kenshi is broken now, why'd they give him so many buffs? Top 3"
"Ferra Torr is ridiculous now, he'll win everything, why'd NRS buff him? Probably the best character in the game now"
... etc.

Just goes to show that it's easy to criticize things long after the fact. Patching is hard.

The truth is that not every character needs to be top tier. Quan Chi is fine. He may not be the best, but he's by no means the worst, either. If every character that's moved down to around mid-tier is "over nerfed", you're being way to harsh about the balancing process. If Alien becomes mid-tier in a patch, that's fine -- it's not the end of the world just because he's no longer tops.

Slow down there was 6 day 1 Chun Li's in total top 32 along with "worst characters" in the game like 2 Zangeif, 2 Rashids and a Fang placing.

In fact the only character from the base roster that didn't place was Laura, a character whose already won a ranking tournament herself.

There was no dlc/pocket characters being pulled out, that's for sure. That'll be the day in an NRS game.

 

[M2Dave]

@CrimsonShadow , Street Fighter V has received zero balance patches since its release. Mortal Kombat X has released abundant patches and hot fixes. To use your wording, there are 20 Aliens in top 32 and the top 8 is almost exclusively the same 3 characters (i.e., Mileena, Sonya, and Takeda).

Also, nobody in this thread has an issue with Alien or Quan Chi, or any other character, being mid tier. You have missed the point of my argument. The unbalance arises if hypothetically speaking Alien's tools are removed or normalized and then transferred to a mid tier or high mid tier character.

@RiBBz22 , again, this thread is not about buffs and nerfs.

 

[M2Dave]

quick question. which character was top tier before a huge patch and is currently way below their original tier. i can't think of anyone other than lao and raiden and if that's true i disagree with dave's 1st point

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with over-normalized characters. You asked so I will try my very best to give an accurate description.

Cassie Cage - from top 10 to mid tier
D'Vorah - minor tier change (most likely up by 1-2 characters)
Kano - from high mid tier to top 5
Kung Lao - from top 5 to mid tier
Johnny Cage - minor tier change (most likely down by 1-2 characters)
Mileena - from top 10 to top 5
Quan Chi - from top 5 to mid tier
Sonya - no tier change
Takeda - no tier change
Tanya - from the best character in the game to mid tier
Tremor - from top 5 to mid tier

In other words, characters who were normalized dropped to mid tier, characters who were normalized slightly remained in the same tier, and mid tier characters who were buffed are top tier.

 

[Tweedy]

@CrimsonShadow , Street Fighter V has received zero balance patches since its release. Mortal Kombat X has released abundant patches and hot fixes. To use your wording, there are 20 Aliens in top 32 and the top 8 is almost exclusively the same 3 characters (i.e., Mileena, Sonya, and Takeda).

Also, nobody in this thread has an issue with Alien or Quan Chi, or any other character, being mid tier. You have missed the point of my argument. The unbalance arises if hypothetically speaking Alien's tools are removed or normalized and then transferred to a mid tier or high mid tier character.

@RiBBz22 , again, this thread is not about buffs and nerfs.

MKX top 32 did have a lot of Alien, but they got cleaned out before top 8. Alien also doesn't cause significant upsets like Chun Li does. The only Takeda got destroyed by Jason and then lost to an Ermac(who is hella good as well, you didn't mention him though). Quan was in top 8 as well, along with Boneshaper and Kotal Khan. I mean, what more do you want, as far as diversity goes?

It's also been 8 years since the release of SFIV. It's harder to balance a game when they're pumped out once every two years.

Btw 0 Mileena's in top 8. What? You must not be talking about EVO?

 

[omooba]

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with over-normalized characters. You asked so I will try my very best to give an accurate description.

Cassie Cage - from top 10 to mid tier
D'Vorah - minor tier change (most likely up by 1-2 characters)
Kano - from high mid tier to top 5
Kung Lao - from top 5 to mid tier
Johnny Cage - minor tier change (most likely down by 1-2 characters)
Mileena - from top 10 to top 5
Quan Chi - from top 5 to mid tier
Sonya - no tier change
Takeda - no tier change
Tanya - from the best character in the game to mid tier
Tremor - from top 5 to mid tier

In other words, characters who were normalized dropped to mid tier, characters who were normalized slightly remained in the same tier, and mid tier characters who were buffed are top tier.

my bad, you literally said

1. A recurring error is over-normalizing top tier characters who have had success in tournaments or whom social media perceives to be overpowered, even if tournaments results indicate otherwise.

but i think i misunderstood.

 

[M2Dave]

You must not be talking about EVO?

I did not mention EVO. Crimson did. I was summarizing this year's major tournament results as well as most of the tier list changes that are based on the last patch.

but i think i misunderstood.

Is what I said false, though? Look at Kung Lao, Raiden, and Tanya.