Nerf/buffs and what's really needed

[Sultani]

just have block breakers and regular breakers not drain stamina.

A character that needs stamina as a basic part of their gameplay for RCs, basic BnBs, etc gets penalized moreso than characters that don't with the current breaker penalty. I don't disagree that you should be penalized for getting opened up, but two meter bars is enough considering several characters NEED meter to be viable anyway. If you play a character that needs both meter and stamina to be effective, you are useless for 8 seconds because you used a breaker. You can't say that for everyone, so you can't say the penalty is equal for everyone either. If you don't need to run cancel, the breaker penalty means less for you.

What taking away stam depletion for breaker use means -

The penalty is still the same for everyone.
The penalty is severe enough (2 meter bars).
Stamina dependent characters are equally disadvantaged post breaker use as non stamina dependent characters (currently not true).

 

[ando1184]

Updated OP with SZ and Jax changes.

 

[Matador Fiend]

Ill hold upy flame shield and ppst this:

Johnny Cage needs fixed. SD is buggy and Fisticuffs is a joke now

Goro needs fixed

Cryso sub f42 13 should be + on hit

Commando kano throws wiffing is a huge problem

Cyber kano needs an overhead, even if it doesnt link to combo

Jason needs his normals to be a bit faster in slasher

 

[Zabru]

Scorpion's hellfire aura does need fixing, it's not a matter of respect it's because the hitbox lingers after the animation.

 

[Iced_Taz]

Whooo I see that game is broken as fu....
MK9 had 5 or 6 patches and still was broken.
MKX has already 4 or 5 patches and there is still a lot to do.

 

[ando1184]

Ill hold upy flame shield and ppst this:

Johnny Cage needs fixed. SD is buggy and Fisticuffs is a joke now

Goro needs fixed

Cryso sub f42 13 should be + on hit

Commando kano throws wiffing is a huge problem

Cyber kano needs an overhead, even if it doesnt link to combo

Jason needs his normals to be a bit faster in slasher

Can you give specifics on what exactly the bugs are for JC and goro?

 

[Matador Fiend]

Can you give specifics on what exactly the bugs are for JC and goro?

Bugs for SD johnny cage are that clone sometimes will not trade with projectiles. Itll hit the other player but do nothing on a trade. Clone also disappears if you xray or get xrayed. This has fucked me over quite a few times because you sometimes still have the clone cooldown

I dont think goro has bugs, at least none i know about. He just needs some type of semi reliable aa that isnt a neter burn in his fangs variation

 

[rafaw]

Bugs for SD johnny cage are that clone sometimes will not trade with projectiles. Itll hit the other player but do nothing on a trade. Clone also disappears if you xray or get xrayed. This has fucked me over quite a few times because you sometimes still have the clone cooldown

I dont think goro has bugs, at least none i know about. He just needs some type of semi reliable aa that isnt a neter burn in his fangs variation

You forgot 114 whiffing even 4 being a mid, and 113xx clone upercut randomly whiffing

 

[STRYKIE]

Scorpion's hellfire aura does need fixing, it's not a matter of respect it's because the hitbox lingers after the animation.

That's kind of how active frames work son, you can be frozen by Sub's ice clone before the clone itself materializes, are we nerfing that too?

 

[Zabru]

That's kind of how active frames work son, you can be frozen by Sub's ice clone before the clone itself materializes, are we nerfing that too?

If you can be damaged or affected by an attack that looks like it has fully recovered or hasn't started up it should be fixed.

 

[GLoRToR]

Tanya:
- Remove teleport altogether, replace it with a teleport like Shinnok's.
Reason: They're useless at their current -10 and were too OP before that.
- Remove Pyromancer's fireballs and replace them with a straight-traveling projectile like Liu Kang's
Reason: Who wants to be punished for hitting?
- Make F4 actually cancellable like the frame data suggests
Reason: It would be a better footsie tool if it actually worked.
- EX Air Drill +4 on block, -40 on whiff and can lead into normals
Reason: Currently useless
- Air Drill +2 on block, can lead into normals
Reason: Currently useless
- EX Air Drop armored +2 on block
Reason: Currently useless
- Air Drop +2 on block
Reason: Currently useless

 

[DreadKnight1]

im sorry but what idiot suggested those raiden nerfs? can the tym community please adopt the mentality of make everyone elses character fair not nerf them to shit and start relying on your skills as players to win? stop crying for buffs and nerfs and level up jesus christ

first of all the option select makes him SAFER not safe. -63 or around that is enough for any optimal punish but shocker is -7 on block meaning any 6 frame normal can still punish him (even though absolutely nobody tries to punish).

and to make his normals gain less meter is just as silly, they dont even do that much chip at all anymore-only about 3% and they leave him negative so he has no great follow ups. hes so meter dependent that he doesn't even get 30% without meter outside the corner unless you use 213 which is unsafe and not a great option outside a combo.

 

[DreadKnight1]

Tanya:
- Remove teleport altogether, replace it with a teleport like Shinnok's.
Reason: They're useless at their current -10 and were too OP before that.
- Remove Pyromancer's fireballs and replace them with a straight-traveling projectile like Liu Kang's
Reason: Who wants to be punished for hitting?
- Make F4 actually cancellable like the frame data suggests
Reason: It would be a better footsie tool if it actually worked.
- EX Air Drill +4 on block, -40 on whiff and can lead into normals
Reason: Currently useless
- Air Drill +2 on block, can lead into normals
Reason: Currently useless
- EX Air Drop armored +2 on block
Reason: Currently useless
- Air Drop +2 on block
Reason: Currently useless

none of those 'useless' things are useless.
her air teleport isn't that good anymore and doesnt lead o endless pressure
you cant remove her shit and replace it with a clone move from another character...

 

[Zabru]

@DreadKnight1 I agree. I hate fighting raiden but understand everyone needs a force or sort of power behind their character to win. Raidens good for the reasons he's good and bad for the reasons he's bad. A character has to have a level of threat and power over your character to make you respect them and have fair matches. That's like getting rid of Kenshi's zoning because it was good and I could use it to defeat other people, isn't that the point?

 

[Phosferrax]

im sorry but what idiot suggested those raiden nerfs? can the tym community please adopt the mentality of make everyone elses character fair not nerf them to shit and start relying on your skills as players to win? stop crying for buffs and nerfs and level up jesus christ

first of all the option select makes him SAFER not safe. -63 or around that is enough for any optimal punish but shocker is -7 on block meaning any 6 frame normal can still punish him (even though absolutely nobody tries to punish).

and to make his normals gain less meter is just as silly, they dont even do that much chip at all anymore-only about 3% and they leave him negative so he has no great follow ups. hes so meter dependent that he doesn't even get 30% without meter outside the corner unless you use 213 which is unsafe and not a great option outside a combo.

This is one of the worst posts I've read on TYM.

Firstly, 4 characters have 6f normals, and of them, Raiden is the only one to get a punish because of the push back. Maybe Jax the minority of the time.
Even 7f reversals don't work sometimes, as Cassie can't punish with either versions of Flip Kick, and Kung Lao's ex spin only works in Tempest AND only if it's done point blank. You can space your supposedly unsafe special to be safe against the fastest punishers in the game. So 2 (sometimes 3) characters in the game get a punish worthwhile, only one of them being a meterless punish. Reptile gets ex slide but lol who cares.

Secondly, his thunder god strings build more than a 3rd of a bar on block with big push back and are safe against nearly everyone. No worthwhile options? How about footsies? Armour? I forgot though, this is MKX, and a move isn't good unless it's a plus on block 50/50.

And the meterless damage argument is BS as well. NEWS FLASH, most characters don't break 30% meterless midscreen. Besides that, one touch from Raiden and you're in the corner anyway.

You are guilty of horrendous downplaying.

 

[STRYKIE]

If you can be damaged or affected by an attack that looks like it has fully recovered or hasn't started up it should be fixed.

There's a lot of things that look like they're supposed to do something, doesn't mean they're systematically entitled to do so.

For the record, I have persistently spoken against people who want Scorpion's F2 in Ninjutsu to be an overhead based on it's aesthetics.

 

[MrProfDrPepper]

Just thought I would point out, this is a minor thing, but the first thing on the list listed as a "bug" where you press 3+4 and X-ray comes out, it isn't a bug, the way you do X-ray on a fight stick since it is insanely awkwars to press L2 and R2 due to the positioning, you press 3+4+R2, it isn't a bug, it is for people with a fight stick, it is the equivilant in street fighter 4 of doing an ultra and you need to press all 3 kicks

 

[Scoot Magee]

Do you understand how bad some characters will become with a combination of 1 bar block breakers and easier throw techs? Non 50/50 characters will suffer dramatically imo.

Combo breakers using only 1 stamina bar will actually make running in even more affective because you'll be able to break immediately after getting punished. I don't understand why everyone thinks 1 bar of stamina would be so great. It's not like it's totally free for someone to get in on you just because you don't have stamina.

 

[VoyagersRevenge]

Shinnok BoneShaper getting normalized next patch. I called it.

 

[Scoot Magee]

just have block breakers and regular breakers not drain stamina.

A character that needs stamina as a basic part of their gameplay for RCs, basic BnBs, etc gets penalized moreso than characters that don't with the current breaker penalty. I don't disagree that you should be penalized for getting opened up, but two meter bars is enough considering several characters NEED meter to be viable anyway. If you play a character that needs both meter and stamina to be effective, you are useless for 8 seconds because you used a breaker. You can't say that for everyone, so you can't say the penalty is equal for everyone either. If you don't need to run cancel, the breaker penalty means less for you.

What taking away stam depletion for breaker use means -

The penalty is still the same for everyone.
The penalty is severe enough (2 meter bars).
Stamina dependent characters are equally disadvantaged post breaker use as non stamina dependent characters (currently not true).

Characters aren't useless for 8 seconds though. You can still play a defensive footsie game after ending the other players combo and knocking them full screen away. Sure you can't get a full combo punish but it's part of the meta in the game. Find the best non rc punish and deal with it while you wait for your stamina to recharge.

Also as mentioned in my previous post 1 bar of stamina will actually buff fbc and run up 50/50 characters because they'll be able to break immediately after being punished. Is this what we want? Considering all the bitching about aggressive play being too good in mkx I think people will regret asking for this buff to breakers.

A game shoukd punish you for your mistakes. Especially if you can completely nullify an oppenents damage with meter.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Also scorpion does not need to be nerfed again. Flame aura is fine especially compared to what else is in the game. It's totally punishable as well so I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[Scoot Magee]

@ scorpion responses: flame aura shouldn't hit you when it's no longer visibly on screen. That is my argument and the move is practically a meterless armored move.

@ shinnok responses: I think if block breaker was less of a consequence then all these chip traps can stay but at the moment it's not. I mentioned the f22 because it's part of the loop and is what keeps you jailed after db2 MB. The real issue is the advantage from db2 MB, it's an eternity and all you can do is stay there and take the chip (35% by the way, w/ 3 bars). Since this game doesn't assist the defending player he can easily close out a match if the opponent still has around 30%. Who wants to die blocking when they could have been still in the game with good reads and mixups? So I firmly believe either fix breaker system or fix amount of chip/meter gained from certain characters. They just did this fix to raidens lightening attacks, the chip got reduced but he still gains 1/3 a bar from them.

@erron black comments: he still has standing 1, 11, 11b3, jump in 3, jump in 4, d1, d3, d4, f12, 21 and 211 for tic throw setups. The nerfs I suggested will straight up normalize the character. He doesn't need more grapple scenarios than some of the more grapple-esc characters in this game. Especially since he does good damage, controls pace of the match with caltrops, keeps his 50/50's, and has great footsie tools. Please stop downplaying, it won't kill him or his other variations.

@ SZ responses: I just see parry get stuffed too often and it's happened too often to me as well. It's supposed to be useful on reads and footsies like you said @Braindead but even with proper reads it fails a lot of times. This is my argument on that and why I think it should operate better as a parry. Seriously, do you think killer frost in injustice had worse tools than SZ does in this game and that's justification as to why her parry was so good? SZ parry should operate like that imo in the sense that when inputted on a read, it properly parrys.

So flame aura is practically a meterless armored move tgat gets totally blown up by armor?

 

[Sultani]

Characters aren't useless for 8 seconds though. You can still play a defensive footsie game after ending the other players combo and knocking them full screen away. Sure you can't get a full combo punish but it's part of the meta in the game. Find the best non rc punish and deal with it while you wait for your stamina to recharge.

Also as mentioned in my previous post 1 bar of stamina will actually buff fbc and run up 50/50 characters because they'll be able to break immediately after being punished. Is this what we want? Considering all the bitching about aggressive play being too good in mkx I think people will regret asking for this buff to breakers.

A game shoukd punish you for your mistakes. Especially if you can completely nullify an oppenents damage with meter.

Ok so being completely useless is a bit of an exaggeration. But it doesn't make it less true that stamina depletion hinders some characters more than others.

 

[Blonde_Huntress]

Gimme slightly quicker start up frames on regular fades in Ethereal please.

 

[vegeta]

So then lower the startup frames since sometimes my flame aura is clearly on the screen yet my opponent still gets right threw it. Also, there is nothing "armored" about it.

I agree. I've gotten hit even off of a read because it started late. My mans hand was up and everything. Actually 2 days ago the flames even came out and I still got hit. This is a solid/good move that doesn't need to change its fine as it is especially considering it's no longer part of old school 214 pressure. He's been wrecked enough.