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Match-up Discussion My Zatanna Match up chart (image)

Mr. Mileena

Mr. Mileena

Noob
Qwark28 said:
You don't zone better than Zod and traited Sinestro, you don't have footsie tools like Aquaman and Sinestro and you sure as hell cannot AA like AM and Sinestro. Just because one player loses to you doesn't mean the character does. Zoning alone isn''t what makes a matchup 7-3.
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Zoning alone makes the matchup 6-4
but when you add her vortex game, runaway game, her wakeup game which helps avoid teeth traps (IF and when she's caught by joker), etc, makes it 7-3.

I disagree. Zatanna is a way better zoner than Zod, and she is up there with Sinestro.
Her rings, ex rings, trait, and trace traps are very good.
Not to mention i can teleport away and only have to worry about a gunshot.

Don't compare Zatanna to other characters because while she doesn't have their tools, those characters dont have hers likewise.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Mr. Mileena said:
Zoning alone makes the matchup 6-4
but when you add her vortex game, runaway game, her wakeup game which helps avoid teeth traps (IF and when she's caught by joker), etc, makes it 7-3.

I disagree. Zatanna is a way better zoner than Zod, and she is up there with Sinestro.
Her rings, ex rings, trait, and trace traps are very good.
Not to mention i can teleport away and only have to worry about a gunshot.

Don't compare Zatanna to other characters because while she doesn't have their tools, those characters dont have hers likewise.
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Why would you be opened up by Zatanna when she doesn't have mixups? Runaway game is zoning basically, her wakeup game is nullified by crowbar, you shouldn't be allowed to wake up.

I don't compare zatanna to characters, I compare her tools to the tools that Joker is weak against.
 
Mr. Mileena

Mr. Mileena

Noob
Qwark28 said:
Why would you be opened up by Zatanna when she doesn't have mixups? Runaway game is zoning basically, her wakeup game is nullified by crowbar, you shouldn't be allowed to wake up.

I don't compare zatanna to characters, I compare her tools to the tools that Joker is weak against.
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k
 
deg222

deg222

Best Zatanna that uses Aquaman
WoundCowboy said:
I'm curious why you think BA beats Zatanna? It seems like she outzones him and controls the air pretty well.
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To add in to what Mileena said, Black Adam simply jumps way too high. The only time we can angle up a ring toss and hit him out of the air is if he jumps fullscreen. If he gets 3/4 screens in, it really becomes a risk to throw normal ring tosses. We can use MB fireballs instead, but of course that requires meter.

Qwark28 said:
You don't have footsie tools like Aquaman and Sinestro and you sure as hell cannot AA like AM and Sinestro.
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Qwark28 said:
Why would you be opened up by Zatanna when she doesn't have mixups? Runaway game is zoning basically, her wakeup game is nullified by crowbar, you shouldn't be allowed to wake up.
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These statements just show that you don't understand or haven't fought a good Zatanna. Zatanna doesn't need footsies or need to AA when she has the option to zone. If her zoning is good enough, the opponent won't even get into that range where she would be forced to use footsies and AAs.

And saying Zatanna doesn't have mixups is a joke lol. She has the ability to freeze you in place (MB puppet master), and does whatever the hell she wants to do to you. Her mixups are only limited to the player using her. If they player cannot find new ways to mixup their opponent, it's their fault.

Mr. Mileena said:
I go Raven for this MU
@deg222
can you chime in on this one too?
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It's really hard to analyze the Raven MU in an online environment. I can see it being in Raven's favor based on what you said, but I can't say for sure because I haven't personally experienced it.
 
Mr. Mileena

Mr. Mileena

Noob
deg222 said:
To add in to what Mileena said, Black Adam simply jumps way too high. The only time we can angle up a ring toss and hit him out of the air is if he jumps fullscreen. If he gets 3/4 screens in, it really becomes a risk to throw normal ring tosses. We can use MB fireballs instead, but of course that requires meter.



These statements just show that you don't understand or haven't fought a good Zatanna. Zatanna doesn't need footsies or need to AA when she has the option to zone. If her zoning is good enough, the opponent won't even get into that range where she would be forced to use footsies and AAs.

And saying Zatanna doesn't have mixups is a joke lol. She has the ability to freeze you in place (MB puppet master), and does whatever the hell she wants to do to you. Her mixups are only limited to the player using her. If they player cannot find new ways to mixup their opponent, it's their fault.



It's really hard to analyze the Raven MU in an online environment. I can see it being in Raven's favor based on what you said, but I can't say for sure because I haven't personally experienced it.
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I appreciate all your input. Thanks!
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
deg222 said:
To add in to what Mileena said, Black Adam simply jumps way too high. The only time we can angle up a ring toss and hit him out of the air is if he jumps fullscreen. If he gets 3/4 screens in, it really becomes a risk to throw normal ring tosses. We can use MB fireballs instead, but of course that requires meter.



These statements just show that you don't understand or haven't fought a good Zatanna. Zatanna doesn't need footsies or need to AA when she has the option to zone. If her zoning is good enough, the opponent won't even get into that range where she would be forced to use footsies and AAs.

And saying Zatanna doesn't have mixups is a joke lol. She has the ability to freeze you in place (MB puppet master), and does whatever the hell she wants to do to you. Her mixups are only limited to the player using her. If they player cannot find new ways to mixup their opponent, it's their fault.



It's really hard to analyze the Raven MU in an online environment. I can see it being in Raven's favor based on what you said, but I can't say for sure because I haven't personally experienced it.
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Against the character with the shortest jump and top 2-3 air normals in the game, AA is a big deal. What will you do against J3? How about J2? What exactly do you do in jump distance?

My gt is Qwark28 if you wanna play the matchup. I could use more Zatanna MU xp.
 
DevilMaySpy

DevilMaySpy

Mama's Little Bumgorf
deg222 said:
It's pretty much right except DD is 4-6.

His forward dash is a real problem because he hops. The little hop animation makes puppet masters whiff that should otherwise hit.
He will catch up to Zatanna where her normals are weak. He can terrorize her with spamming d1. Even though DDs d1 is -2 on block, Zat can't use her d1 after blocking DDs d1 because it won't reach.
Even though body splash can be AAed with Zat's f3, it's not really necessary for him to jump.
We can kinda escape the corner with MB teleport, but this MU doesn't really allow Zatanna to gain much meter.

The only reason why it's 4-6 and not any worse is because of our trait. If we get the chance to use it, DD is helpless until he reaches midscreen. This allows us to get some meter and have some breathing room.
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What if Doomsday does meterburn SuperNova when trait is activated? Can we teleport away, or will it still track?
 
deg222

deg222

Best Zatanna that uses Aquaman
Qwark28 said:
Against the character with the shortest jump and top 2-3 air normals in the game, AA is a big deal. What will you do against J3? How about J2? What exactly do you do in jump distance?

My gt is Qwark28 if you wanna play the matchup. I could use more Zatanna MU xp.
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I'm saying Zatanna's zoning is so good that she'll barely be in that situation where she's forced to AA or play footsies. It'll happen when she gets cornered, but then what. She has the option to MB teleport, are you going to bait it out and play patient? Am I gonna read that you're baiting it so I continue zoning in risky spots, etc.

But anyways, I personally dunno if it's 7-3 or 6-4, but she definitely does it win it.

Emperor DMS said:
What if Doomsday does meterburn SuperNova when trait is activated? Can we teleport away, or will it still track?
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If you teleport away it has to be well timed. The teleport needs to be performed when he's coming down. Zatanna always has the option to forward dash underneath though.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
deg222 said:
I'm saying Zatanna's zoning is so good that she'll barely be in that situation where she's forced to AA or play footsies. It'll happen when she gets cornered, but then what. She has the option to MB teleport, are you going to bait it out and play patient? Am I gonna read that you're baiting it so I continue zoning in risky spots, etc.

But anyways, I personally dunno if it's 7-3 or 6-4, but she definitely does it win it.


If you teleport away it has to be well timed. The teleport needs to be performed when he's coming down. Zatanna always has the option to forward dash underneath though.
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I agree with what you say but I must point out that Joker is not THAT easy to keep out and a good Joker will be on top of you. Crowbar will always keep you honest, one combo of his is 60% of the stage wallcarry and ends in crowbar which can be MBed for a guaranteed unblockable.

I'm not arguing that it is 5-5, I'm arguing that Joker doesn't lose 7-3

Just one of those risky spots has much more reward for me than for you when it comes to a reset character like Joker.
 
xKhaoTik

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
Mr. Mileena said:
I thought it was online but for some reason, Zatanna can't trance punish a blocked iceberg.

The frame data has to be wrong for either her or frost.
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Yea I've always known that lol. I thought she can but then I checked it during training and found out trance doesn't punish spike.

Is trance more than 26f on startup ?
 
Pan1cMode

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
I agree with this but with the addendum that Ares probably loses to Z.

I also find deathstroke to be a somewhat challenging MU but not quite on the level of Raven, MMH or AM.
 
EMPRESS_SunFire

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
I always thought Scorpion was a losing MU, very slightly tho. Some people already stated points but i wanna add that once we get knocked down we have to respect his okies because we can't wake up with anything or he will punish it.
 
Rickyraws

Rickyraws

This mean you don't like me?
prycemonsta said:
Actually she does. I don't feel like explaining why, but @Rickyraws will agree the MU is in frost favor for several reasons. We have played this match up out PLENTY of games and evaluated it the best we could.
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-Full combo punish on grounded and air teleport.

-Full screen trance punish

-Iceberg can mess up yoga catastrophe set ups

-Can slide through smoke and mirrors nullifying guess work(that's her clone move right?)

-Almost impossible to use trait this MU

These are a couple of things off the top of my head. Especially with not being able to trait up this MU, is seems like KF can play the MU like any other without being prevented from doing her thing. I'd like to hear the thoughts of others.
 
@MylesWright_

@MylesWright_

I'll be back 3ing
Rickyraws said:
-Full combo punish on grounded and air teleport.

-Full screen trance punish

-Iceberg can mess up yoga catastrophe set ups

-Can slide through smoke and mirrors nullifying guess work(that's her clone move right?)

-Almost impossible to use trait this MU

These are a couple of things off the top of my head. Especially with not being able to trait up this MU, is seems like KF can play the MU like any other without being prevented from doing her thing. I'd like to hear the thoughts of others.
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So anyone who can punish a blocked projectile with a reversal attack beats Zatanna. TYM
 
Mr. Mileena

Mr. Mileena

Noob
Rickyraws said:
-Full combo punish on grounded and air teleport.

-Full screen trance punish

-Iceberg can mess up yoga catastrophe set ups

-Can slide through smoke and mirrors nullifying guess work(that's her clone move right?)

-Almost impossible to use trait this MU

These are a couple of things off the top of my head. Especially with not being able to trait up this MU, is seems like KF can play the MU like any other without being prevented from doing her thing. I'd like to hear the thoughts of others.
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Thank you.
That and KF is just so mobile and agile. She is too quick for zatanna as well.

This is a MU although it's losing, i feel comfortable in.
I'd rather use Zatanna over Raven.
Levitate really helps in this MU, as there is nothing frost can do, a high peak levitate avoids everything frost can do.
Levitate also helps punish wake up slides

but overall, kf has the upperhand by a bit

Phosferrax said:
@Mr. Mileena you have Ares as a losing mu?
Click to expand...
No. I have it as even
 
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