My thoughts on why throws are worthless

[oBryant]

No, you can't option select both. You must guess. It is an educated guess though, as you base your guess on where you are in relation to the corner as it is very likely that you will be thrown there.

The window you have to press the right button and escape the throw only accepts the FIRST input. If you press the wrong button, you get thrown.

im going to test this again.

 

[UPR_Nova]

We gotta realize that throwing is PART OF the mixup that we use. Of course, get crushed on the overuse of it, but cmon, block heavy beware, right?

 

[oBryant]

k, just got out the lab. Konqrr, what you said is correct but I found out that if you press both of them back and forth, it will tech any of the two throws. kinda like mashing.. but you have to alternate through the two. it worked for me 9 of 10 trys i did it.

 

[Fabulocity]

I agree! As a matter of fact, you should just not throw ever. Don't do it. Just stop. Forever.

I'll be back later to check in on you. Lemme know how things work out for you with the "no throwing"-thing, 'kay? Ciao.

 

[FlsGd2BAgngsta]

I agree! As a matter of fact, you should just not throw ever. Don't do it. Just stop. Forever.

I'll be back later to check in on you. Lemme know how things work out for you with the "no throwing"-thing, 'kay? Ciao.

lol lets play/add me. and i wont throw. and lets DO see how things work out for me. I understand their are spots where throwing can be an acceptable play with certain characters. I also still feel like with some characters, ones with a good high low mixup game and block strings that grant safe jumps, throwing is almost always a terrible play. I dont use Noob Saidbot. If I did Im sure I would start throwing alot. When I use Raiden I throw a decent amount. When I use Quan Chi, Shang Tsung, Kabal, Sub Zero, Jade, Cyrax, Sektor, and Im sure others Ive dabbled in, I usually dont even consider a throw because when I have the pressure game going and have my opponent in block/guessing game/chip damage mode and about to take a full combo at one little mistake...Im not about to let him off the hook for 12% damage and give him the wakeup attack of his choice putting me in the guessing game of whether to block or continue pressure.

Why would I ever throw with Quan Chi unless it was kill damage? If every great player in the world told me I should start going throw crazy with Quan Chi I still wouldnt. With at least this character (as I have put alot of time in with him) I KNOW it is almost never correct to throw.

When ending a block string early/not cancelling it into a special I still feel like doing a crossover jump punch into another mixup/blockstring is far better than throwing almost always.

 

[Fabulocity]

lol lets play/add me. and i wont throw. and lets DO see how things work out for me. I understand their are spots where throwing can be an acceptable play with certain characters. I also still feel like with some characters, ones with a good high low mixup game and block strings that grant safe jumps, throwing is almost always a terrible play. I dont use Noob Saidbot. If I did Im sure I would start throwing alot. When I use Raiden I throw a decent amount. When I use Quan Chi, Shang Tsung, Kabal, Sub Zero, Jade, Cyrax, Sektor, and Im sure others Ive dabbled in, I usually dont even consider a throw because when I have the pressure game going and have my opponent in block/guessing game/chip damage mode and about to take a full combo at one little mistake...Im not about to let him off the hook for 12% damage and give him the wakeup attack of his choice putting me in the guessing game of whether to block or continue pressure.

Why would I ever throw with Quan Chi unless it was kill damage? If every great player in the world told me I should start going throw crazy with Quan Chi I still wouldnt. With at least this character (as I have put alot of time in with him) I KNOW it is almost never correct to throw.

When ending a block string early/not cancelling it into a special I still feel like doing a crossover jump punch into another mixup/blockstring is far better than throwing almost always.

Eh.... I can see your point, but doing cross up jump ins can be punished. Also, there are more benefits to throwing than just damage. For example, positioning. As in "now-you're-in-the-corner." Also psychological. Mix ups are high or low. I either block standing or crouching. Basically that turns it into a 50/50 game with the advantage going to no one. But if you add throwing to the mix, the mix up is now 33%. I have to block low, high or throw break. This gives you the advantage on offense. You having a 66% chance of breaking their defense is better than a 50% chance. Of course, if you don't like stacking the odds in your favor...

Also, you really only have to throw once or twice to get your opponent off balance.

There's more to the game than using your most damaging options. The key is to break your opponent down until they're too scared to do anything, at which point you crush them. If stopping your offense consists of me holding block and occasionally pushing the down button, then if you beat me you didn't really beat me. You just won more coin tosses.

Also note, there are only so many moves in the command list. Eventually people will know what strings end low or overhead. Now the match is no longer a 50/50. Now it's a block correctly and punish game.

And LOL at you trying to settle the dispute on XBL. Like that'll prove anything. That 50/50 game you hold so dear destroys people online because of lag. Go to a major and win with that tactic against the best in the world. Otherwise, you're just punking casual scrubs online. Or better yet, it says you're from Vegas. If you're going to be a Revelation, I'll do some casuals with you there. I'm not entering the tourny, but I will certainly driving out to LA to back up my words in person. If you beat me, you beat me, but I'll be damned if I try to put my reputation up for grabs on XBL. You gotta be joking.

 

[Juggs]

If you think throws are worthless, you're using them wrong.

 

[FlsGd2BAgngsta]

If you think throws are worthless, you're using them wrong.

worthless mightve been too strong a word. overused by many is better...worthless for quan chi and probably others unless doing match winning damage. most of my play is online so the lag and difficulty in punishing crossover jumps after mixup strings online is probably alot to do with my opinion. i still hate the blockd jump in punch throw option though.

 

[XxKrebsxX]

Easy, mate.

Ermac has no medium/low attacks that can be combo'd off of.

Jump in punch > throw all the way.

 

[LordSpectreX]

1) It's good for reversing positions.
2) It's good for decent damage.
3) It's good for keeping the opponent on their toes.
4) It's good for getting huge oki.
5) It's good for getting space, especially for zoners.
6) It's good for punishing counterattacks.
7) It's good for putting them in the corner.

Those are good enough reasons for me.

 

[FlsGd2BAgngsta]

Easy, mate.

Ermac has no medium/low attacks that can be combo'd off of.

Jump in punch > throw all the way.

ok i can buy throwing with ermac as well. but not for the sake of the 12%...for reason to be in perefect tkp range and zone afterwards. against one of the characters who can outzone ermac i think its a bad play. j1,b1,1,4 is hard to punish for alot of characters without commiting after the 4 that you wont cancel in tkl. can stop the string after the first b1 and go into something else too once they are accustomed to the rest of it coming out. ermac is shit at mixups anyways but if youre facing a character that can outzone you then i dont see why you would give them the space to do so.

if you can outzone your opponent then throw is fine with anyone but if your opponent is attempting to outzone you and is succeeding then a throw is an unnacceptable excuse at damage just because hes blocking. thanks for the 12% and thanks for getting me out of harms way so i can go back to zoning you.

if throwing to get space, put your opponent in the corner, or have no mixups and need to zone to win then throw is fine. I just dont think throw is an acceptable excuse at getting damage from a blocking opponent unless you are attemting to zone. like i said online lag might be a factor and also just my play style.

think its funny though when i see someone safe jumping, mixing it up, and right when his opponent is about to do something stupid to try to get out of it he just throws him right out of the corner into the safety of the wide open giving him wakeup options and allow him to regroup. why?

 

[FlsGd2BAgngsta]

1) It's good for reversing positions.
2) It's good for decent damage.
3) It's good for keeping the opponent on their toes.
4) It's good for getting huge oki.
5) It's good for getting space, especially for zoners.
6) It's good for punishing counterattacks.
7) It's good for putting them in the corner.

Those are good enough reasons for me.

i agree with 1,5,6,and 7 and think those are the only reasons to ever throw.

if i allow someone to get in with a jump in punch without antiairing them and all they get out of it is 12% and putting me back out of harms way. ill take it happily.

 

[mPariah]

i agree with 1,5,6,and 7 and think those are the only reasons to ever throw.

if i allow someone to get in with a jump in punch without antiairing them and all they get out of it is 12% and putting me back out of harms way. ill take it happily.

lol you don't think there's an oki game with throws? you don't think it makes your opponent think about that many more options?

Maybe your thread should be titled "my thoughts on why throws are worthless with Quan-chi", because the only decent arguments i've seen have been in quan chi's favor, and even then they're borderline.

I'm pretty sure you're the only person on this site with this opinion, and i've yet to see any valid reasons why.

Oh also, the fact that you're willing to take 12% throw damage that spaces you across the screen versus some minor chip damage that will likely leave you next to the person every single time is laughable.

 

[GNG Iniquity]

I'm pretty sure you're the only person on this site with this opinion, and i've yet to see any valid reasons why.

Oh also, the fact that you're willing to take 12% throw damage that spaces you across the screen versus some minor chip damage that will likely leave you next to the person every single time is laughable.

Looking at your sig, I realized that we haven't discussed Shang's advantage of throwing. He receives what, 9% of health per throw right? He also throws the character across the screen to give himself a zone advantage.

 

[mPariah]

Looking at your sig, I realized that we haven't discussed Shang's advantage of throwing. He receives what, 9% of health per throw right? He also throws the character across the screen to give himself a zone advantage.

Shang is one character i play out of like 8, my comments were not meant to be aimed at any character in particular but all in general.

 

[FlsGd2BAgngsta]

lol you don't think there's an oki game with throws? you don't think it makes your opponent think about that many more options?

Maybe your thread should be titled "my thoughts on why throws are worthless with Quan-chi", because the only decent arguments i've seen have been in quan chi's favor, and even then they're borderline.

I'm pretty sure you're the only person on this site with this opinion, and i've yet to see any valid reasons why.

no because i am happy to take 12% damage with no risk of 35-55% and "start over" after someone is able to get me into a block string. throw me after a blocked jump in punch and i am releived so im not even looking to tech it in that spot and wont be next time if i allow myself to get in a terrible spot again. i think people highly overrate throwing and underestimate what a terrible spot they are in once they block a jump in punch based on all the options and mixups that can result in half their life bar.

 

[FlsGd2BAgngsta]

Looking at your sig, I realized that we haven't discussed Shang's advantage of throwing. He receives what, 9% of health per throw right? He also throws the character across the screen to give himself a zone advantage.

yeah, again, i said worthless was too strong of word to use and that throwing to go back to zoning is acceptable. shang can end his string in soul steal which is safe though so after jp, f3,4 if they dont block low here comes a million skulls for 40% and if they do soul steal into safety.

edit: and ive been using shang non stop the past few days and am sure ive done less than 5 throws over 200 matches. shit is a give up option.

 

[mPariah]

no because i am happy to take 12% damage with no risk of 35-55% and "start over" after someone is able to get me into a block string. throw me after a blocked jump in punch and i am releived so im not even looking to tech it in that spot and wont be next time if i allow myself to get in a terrible spot again. i think people highly overrate throwing and underestimate what a terrible spot they are in once they block a jump in punch based on all the options and mixups that can result in half their life bar.

This is incredibly character specific. A lot of characters don't have low or mid starters that will result in high damage. Even if they do, many more can be fuzzy guarded.

Are they overrated? Perhaps. Are they worthless? Not even close. The fact of the matter is that throws are extremely situational, whether you take into account the characters and their moves, where you're life is at, where you're super meter is at, etc. To say they are worthless is a dumb blanket statement.

 

[FlsGd2BAgngsta]

This is incredibly character specific. A lot of characters don't have low or mid starters that will result in high damage. Even if they do, many more can be fuzzy guarded.

Are they overrated? Perhaps. Are they worthless? Not even close. The fact of the matter is that throws are extremely situational, whether you take into account the characters and their moves, where you're life is at, where you're super meter is at, etc. To say they are worthless is a dumb blanket statement.

i shouldnt have used the word useless in the first place because its not what i meant. Overrated and only situational is what i meant. My whole point I think comes from:

I think players as a whole highly underestimate how dangerous it is to allow someone to get in with a jump punch even if its blocked and players highly underestimate how good of a spot they are in after a blocked jump punch. And wasting that oppurtunity on a throw for the sake of the 12% damage is bad. Thats what I mean.

 

[mPariah]

i shouldnt have used the word useless in the first place because its not what i meant. Overrated and only situational is what i meant. My whole point I think comes from:

I think players as a whole highly underestimate how dangerous it is to allow someone to get in with a jump punch even if its blocked and players highly underestimate how good of a spot they are in after a blocked jump punch. And wasting that oppurtunity on a throw for the sake of the 12% damage is bad. Thats what I mean.

Fair enough. Might want to edit the OP because those are 2 completely different opinions.

 

[Fabulocity]

I think the problem you seem to be having is that you don't know how to pressure after a wake up. If you did, you'd see that throws are a God send.

Yes, I'll agree that keeping pressure with chains and safe jumps is good. VERY good. Do that. ALOT. The thing is, I don't think you understand that the worst thing that can happen to you in a match (besides getting cornered) is getting knocked down. When you get knocked down, you are at the mercy of your opponent. You have COMPLETELY lost control of your character for whatever the amount of time it takes for you to get back up. This is bad. Very bad. You now have two options: tech roll - which you can only do backwards; and wake up attack. The only other "semi" option is to just block and see what your opponent does to you, but that puts you even more at his mercy.

So that puts us back at the other two options: roll and wake up attack. Rolls make you lose ground since you can only roll backwards. Also you can't roll away in a corner (one reason why getting cornered is worse that getting knocked down). Not only that, but most wake up attacks are SEVERELY punishable. Do too many of those and your opponent will just block, then hit you with a nasty combo.

Of course, this puts us back at blocking and guessing between standing block or crouching block. That option (if you can call it that) puts you on the bad end of a 50/50 mix up. All your opponent has to do is see you block, and then just "hit'em where they ain't." Note as well that just because YOU don't throw doesn't mean others don't. I don't care if you're using Quan Chi or not, if your opponent thinks for a second that you aren't weary of throws, you're going to eat them. ALOT. So now our "50/50" is a "33/33/33" because you have to guess high block, low block or throw break. I'm sure you'd rather be on the other side of that equation.

Which brings us back to throws...

Remember those two (ok, two and a half) options I mentioned before? Well just scratch rolling from that when you get thrown. Throws are un-techable. So that leaves you with wake up attack and pray you block right. I'm not religious, but I do believe in God. Even still I'd rather not leave anything up to prayer.

I hope you see that no matter what character you use, putting your opponent is a position where their only options are:

1.) heavily punishable wake-up attack that will give you a full combo

and 2.)"OMG BLOCK! OMG WRONG BLOCK! OMGOMGOMG!"

is a good thing.

Remember, any advantage is a good thing. Throws give you alot of advantage, and to discount them is only going to make your game weaker. Yes, even if you play Quan Chi. The trick is not to avoid throws, or be too throw happy. The key is to know when to throw, why and what you have to gain from attempting a throw.

AND TO EVERYBODY TEARING THIS GUY APART: Yeah, he's talking crazy talk. Yes, he has kind of an attitude problem. Even still, you were all there once too. Please give constructive feed back after telling him ever so eloquently that he's wrong. Being a dick'll only make him leave. We don't want that, we want him to level up so that he's confident enough to go to offline tournaments so that we can (hopefully....) take his money or see some amazing shit that leaves us in awe because we never thought of that while he takes OUR money.

Look at me for example, he was calling me out on XBL. What do I in response? Call him out offline. Then I wrote a goddamn novel explaining why his opinion has gaps. Not that he's wrong, just that he's not utilizing his full potential.

Stay salty my friends,
-Fab

 

[Pagan]

lol can't believe someone said throws were worthless...

Okay I see that you upgraded them to less than effective. But still that's not even remotely close to the truth. Take for instance Scorpion. If he ends a combo in throw or airthrow he get's a free hellfire/spear mix-up. Any character with an airthrow has an easy 2 hit combo that can be done off a jump kick. 50/50 isn't that amazing a mixup to be honest. If your opponent just gets luck and guesses right 3 times in a row, which is totally possible with a 50/50 mixup. That puts you behind.

What exactly do you want throws to do? This is the kind of thought that is pandemic in the Mortal Kombat scene where oldschool MK fans think combos is everything and only look at damage output. At pro levels your big damage set ups are more like threats of power because no one is going to let you jump in on them unpunished. Offline is totally different to online for that reason.

 

[FlsGd2BAgngsta]

lol can't believe someone said throws were worthless...

Okay I see that you upgraded them to less than effective. But still that's not even remotely close to the truth. Take for instance Scorpion. If he ends a combo in throw or airthrow he get's a free hellfire/spear mix-up. Any character with an airthrow has an easy 2 hit combo that can be done off a jump kick. 50/50 isn't that amazing a mixup to be honest. If your opponent just gets luck and guesses right 3 times in a row, which is totally possible with a 50/50 mixup. That puts you behind.

What exactly do you want throws to do? This is the kind of thought that is pandemic in the Mortal Kombat scene where oldschool MK fans think combos is everything and only look at damage output. At pro levels your big damage set ups are more like threats of power because no one is going to let you jump in on them unpunished. Offline is totally different to online for that reason.

An air throw as an anti air or combo ender is quite obviously not the same thing as to what I am referring to.

The odds of guessing a 50/50 right three times in a row is 12.5% (.5 to the third power is .125).

 

[Pagan]

An air throw as an anti air or combo ender is quite obviously not the same thing as to what I am referring to.

The odds of guessing a 50/50 right three times in a row is 12.5% (.5 to the third power is .125).

So you agree with everything else I said. I consider that progress!

What you are referring to is throws being worthless because they don't do 40+ damage?

As far as your math, that's also YOUR odds for getting right 3 times in a row. You would be playing several rounds in a tournament setting so attrition plays a factor.

 

[afro insomniac]

I want to thank the OP for creating this thread because I've actaully learned valuable information about the throw system in general.

From what I've read after a bloacked jump in punch, using ONLY a high/low attack every time will give you 50/50 to do a high damage combo. But when you add in the throw that gives you a better advantage to do some damage, leaving the opponent to guess 25/25/25/25 (depending on if you implement forward throws as well). If you decide to throw it will leave your opponent at another 25/25/25/25 situation however they will now have the option to uppercut you (which this is not possible after a blocked jump in punch?) or can avoid the situation all together by rolling backwards.

From the info I've gathered, the only disadvantage to throwing is giving your opponent the opportunity to uppercut you or roll out of harms way. Am I interpreting this correctly?

The question I have is if you strictly ignore throws (decide to never throw) and always start your high/low attack after blocked jump in punches, do you gain any frame advantage if the opponent succeeds in blocking the stringed attack? Will you have an advantage and be able to continue pressure off of a blocked jump in punch + string or does the blocked string leave both players on even ground?

I could see the OP's point if by only using high/low follow ups allows you keep constant pressure that throws cannot guarantee (because of the roll/uppercut get out of jail card). This way you have more opportunities to land that high damage while keeping the pressure on.