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My Personal Opinion of Killer Frost w/ MU Chart

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Their anti air hit boxes are completely different. And why aren't you acknowledging MBF3 as the answer to joker's jumping? also, I never said that KF wins the post slide guessing game.
I was pointing out why its 5-5.

I did say that on a read you can anti air him.

The anti air hitboxes don't even matter, if aquaman's 7f d2 which its huge hitbox can't anti air joker on reaction the KF will not do it. Ive heard this arguement from every single char forum and theyre all clueless.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Premium Supporter
i practice it, and its pretty easy. you went from i can blow everything up to, if im on point and i have meter and i read mb DE i can MB f3.
Please don't bring me into this argument. The point is that you can't really discount the option as being completely un-viable.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Fine, I'm done explaining this, keep believing you can D2 Joker's J3, that his wakeups are ass or that he gets outzoned/corner game doesn't exist.
To be fair, she can MB F3 it at any range, which Khaotic did to me often.
That said...


Joker's only saving grace in this MU is the post slide guessing game. In addition to getting outzoned, he literally cannot jump at killer frost (MBF3 + D2) without risking 40% into a vortex. not to mention his wakeups are ass.
It's a shame I'm free to Batman; I wanted to play you in tournament this weekend.

Anyway on topic:

In close range a cross-up jump can work, and there are certain setups where I can jump safely, but for the most part you're right.

However, getting in isn't that hard if I play it patiently, and the wakeups aren't a huge factor (Although flower is *almost* fully invincible, which is more than some characters can say) considering you can react to the meterless vortex and the metered one is a straight guess that doesn't depend on wakeups.

I feel Joker's strengths in this matchup are OTGs which kind of negate the slide wakeup, being able to outfootsie Frost with D2 (Although this is parry-able) and B1, having vastly better pressure, doing better damage and having a godlike corner game. D2 also keeps Frost out of the air, although admittedly being in the air is less important for Frost than Joker.

On the flip side, Frost can stop him from taking to the air, which shuts down half of his game plan. She can also zone him rather effectively (Although gun can keep Frost in check and allow him to move). Parry is also a problem for Joker as all of his combo starters are mid and D2, his main spacing tool, can be parried. It also really hurts that she can duck the last hit of 212, hurting his pressure game. Also, obviously, the vortex.

IDK... On paper it sounds kind of in Frost's favor, but the matchup didn't feel to be against me when played offline.



EDIT:


I was pointing out why its 5-5.

I did say that on a read you can anti air him.

The anti air hitboxes don't even matter, if aquaman's 7f d2 which its huge hitbox can't anti air joker on reaction the KF will not do it. Ive heard this arguement from every single char forum and theyre all clueless.
This logic is flawed.
AM's anti-air has the highest vertical hitbox of any D2 but it's horizontal range is kind of weak. KF's MB F3 is the opposite. It has as much, if not more, horizontal range than vertical and thanks to the hit of armor you will fall into it regardless of how you space a 1-hit aerial (Unless maybe if you're MMH with trait on coming straight down from an airdash).
 
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xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
I probably jumped the gun on the Joker MU. @Fromundaman and I did run the MU a ton this pass weekend. It honestly felt like Frost favor until I got put into the corner or he had the life lead.

I dont see the problem with AAing Joker. I was doing it just fine.


This MU needs to be grinded out more IMO.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
This logic is flawed.
AM's anti-air has the highest vertical hitbox of any D2 but it's horizontal range is kind of weak. KF's MB F3 is the opposite. It has as much, if not more, horizontal range than vertical and thanks to the hit of armor you will fall into it regardless of how you space a 1-hit aerial (Unless maybe if you're MMH with trait on coming straight down from an airdash).
If you get hit mb f3 while jumping then you either used the wrong normal for the range you're at or got read. there's no way he can anti air you on reaction unlss you got something risky
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I probably jumped the gun on the Joker MU. @Fromundaman and I did run the MU a ton this pass weekend. It honestly felt like Frost favor until I got put into the corner or he had the life lead.

I dont see the problem with AAing Joker. I was doing it just fine.


This MU needs to be grinded out more IMO.
i've grinded it out since day one, you need to learn how space your air normals as joker.
 

xKhaoTik

The Ignore Button Is Free
If you get hit mb f3 while jumping then you either used the wrong normal for the range you're at or got read. there's no way he can anti air you on reaction unlss you got something risky

What's the range? I was AAing everyone at CW just fine with d2 and mbf3, including the Joker's jump. But if there's a certain range, I would need to test that.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
What's the range? I was AAing everyone at CW just fine with d2 and mbf3, including the Joker's jump. But if there's a certain range, I would need to test that.
Up close in crossup/fake crossup range j2

far away j3 or close up j3

jump range j1
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Up close in crossup/fake crossup range j2

far away j3 or close up j3

jump range j1
Yeah, I mentioned that close range crossup jumps were safe.
As for the far away J3, I didn't find a range that beat MB F3, but I'll go mess with that later then.

J1 will win unless read, this is true. It is in fact the basis for one of my setups.


Oh and yes, I'm certain a decent number of the times I got AA'd were on a read, but TBH I *hope* I wasn't being predictable enough with my jumps that every AA was.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Yeah, I mentioned that close range crossup jumps were safe.
As for the far away J3, I didn't find a range that beat MB F3, but I'll go mess with that later then.

J1 will win unless read, this is true. It is in fact the basis for one of my setups.


Oh and yes, I'm certain a decent number of the times I got AA'd were on a read, but TBH I *hope* I wasn't being predictable enough with my jumps that every AA was.
J3 will win as well. You will see it but won't have time to MB the F3.

Far away J3 recovers faster than KF can hit you.
 

astronout

see you at the top.
I was pointing out why its 5-5.

I did say that on a read you can anti air him.

The anti air hitboxes don't even matter, if aquaman's 7f d2 which its huge hitbox can't anti air joker on reaction the KF will not do it. Ive heard this arguement from every single char forum and theyre all clueless.
But I've played you lol. I'm not making this up. MBF3 is not a read, it's a reaction. And MU numbers are both relative and ambiguous, which is why I've refrained from making one for any of the characters I play. I'm just pointing out the tools KF has to deal with joker's tools.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
But I've played you lol. I'm not making this up. MBF3 is not a read, it's a reaction. And MU numbers are both relative and ambiguous, which is why I've refrained from making one for any of the characters I play. I'm just pointing out the tools KF has to deal with joker's tools.
Online I can't do half my combos into setups, I have to use kiddie combos for the floaty online ( Perfect Legend TM )

You will not react to J3 at the right ranges, which is either jump distance done nearly instant or further done at the end of the jump. J1 itself is unreactable and J2 in a crossup/fake crossup rage is gg.

I've tested all these vs several players offline, one having WW, another having a 6f invincible air snatch.

Any MB f3 you did catch was a read, not a reaction unless I screwed it up.
 

astronout

see you at the top.
Online I can't do half my combos into setups, I have to use kiddie combos
Fair enough, but keep in mind that me reacting to online setups is infinitely harder to do than it is offline.

but if I can react to the rest of the cast's jump ins, air dashes, etc. offline, I see no reason why I can't do the same to joker. but because there is no real joker main offline, i guess there is no real way to find out.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Fair enough, but keep in mind that me reacting to online setups is infinitely harder to do than it is offline.

but if I can react to the rest of the cast's jump ins, air dashes, etc. offline, I see no reason why I can't do the same to joker. but because there is no real joker main offline, i guess there is no real way to find out.
Because Joker's are the best in the game in both speed and advantage and his jump arc is the shorter in the cast.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
Premium Supporter
What are the reasons for Shazam losing 4-6?
lol daggers. Just daggers alone are MU changing against Shazam. I don't think anything else that either character has completely influences the MU besides meterless vortex being less effective due to Shazam's wakeup and slide blowing up some of Shazam's throw setups off knockdowns.