My liu kang mu chart

[xHolmesyx]

A lot of things can be talked about regarding the 'highest' level, doesn't mean they're always systematically correct when two humans are playing the game.

Besides, I've already stressed that it's not based on my experience, if it was up to me, it'd be like 8-2 Kenshi lol, I'm only pointing out the stuff that I feel Liu players don't take into account in the matchup.


There's way too much pre-emptive jumps over charge on wake-up after a knockdown in this set. If you have an inkling that it's coming, you may as well just wait and punish, Liu being one of the very few characters that can full combo punish spirit charge on block up close with 213. Admittedly it doesn't look like it reaches (and it probably doesn't at neutral frames, part of the shoulder hitbox must still be extended forward during recovery lol) but it can be done. There's virtually zero benefit to trying to jump over Kenshi that close to the corner.

Also, again, about the zoning meta of that matchup, you have to use Liu's projectiles for more than just faking-out your jump in. Pig wasn't really fishing for any reflects (granted, this might be because his Kenshi was still coming through the ranks back then, IDK) and there were several unnecessarily blocked flurries IMO.


The short answer is that because Kabal was essentially a Super Liu Kang. There are a couple of things that Liu is better at mind you, but in the grand scheme of things, if you were gravitating towards the high tiers for the sake of it, Kabal just made more sense.

Earlier you said you highly disagreed about pecka saying 7-3 now you're saying you think it's 8-2 hmm. Kang can not punish spirit charge even if its -10 because of the pushback.

Also, it's damn hard to get a close knockdown with kang against Kenshi. If you know a spirit charge is coming there's no point in waiting to try and punish it with 213 which is pretty much impossible you may as well just jump lol. Yes Kenshi can wait for the crossover and punish it but that's when you can start pressure as he'll be standing there.

 

[xHolmesyx]

Can someone explain why Liu Kang was not seen much in high level play?

Kang wasn't often used at a high level because not many people know how to play him at a high level .

 

[STRYKIE]

Earlier you said you highly disagreed about pecka saying 7-3 now you're saying you think it's 8-2 hmm. Kang can not punish spirit charge even if its -10 because of the pushback.

Also, it's damn hard to get a close knockdown with kang against Kenshi. If you know a spirit charge is coming there's no point in waiting to try and punish it with 213 which is pretty much impossible you may as well just jump lol. Yes Kenshi can wait for the crossover and punish it but that's when you can start pressure as he'll be standing there.

I'm talking about my personal track record against Liu Kang with Kenshi. In the same respect that 16 Bit almost always got the job done against top Kabal mains, but it doesn't mean Kitana beats Kabal.

Trust me, the standing 2 does reach after a blocked SC up close, even though it doesn't look like it would. Although I don't reasonably expect anybody to punish it properly online. If I had better recording equipment I would demonstrate.

 

[xHolmesyx]

The short answer is that because Kabal was essentially a Super Liu Kang. There are a couple of things that Liu is better at mind you, but in the grand scheme of things, if you were gravitating towards the high tiers for the sake of it, Kabal just made more sense.

Kang wasn't used often at a high level because not many people know how to play him at a high level .[/QUOTE]

I'm talking about my personal track record against Liu Kang with Kenshi. In the same respect that 16 Bit almost always got the job done against top Kabal mains, but it doesn't mean Kitana beats Kabal.

Trust me, the standing 2 does reach after a blocked SC up close, even though it doesn't look like it would. Although I don't reasonably expect anybody to punish it properly online. If I had better recording equipment I would demonstrate.

The standing 2 does not reach please stop lol.

 

[DavS13]

I don't think the kabal matchup is as bad as you say. Full screen you can low fireball and it recovers fast enough to not get hit by ex nomad dash and buzzsaw. Up close he has fast enough normals to hold his own. Only bad thing is his big hitbox. I think it should be closer to 5-5,or at least 4.5-5.5

 

[xHolmesyx]

I'm talking about my personal track record against Liu Kang with Kenshi. In the same respect that 16 Bit almost always got the job done against top Kabal mains, but it doesn't mean Kitana beats Kabal.

Trust me, the standing 2 does reach after a blocked SC up close, even though it doesn't look like it would. Although I don't reasonably expect anybody to punish it properly online. If I had better recording equipment I would demonstrate.

 

[DavS13]

A lot of things can be talked about regarding the 'highest' level, doesn't mean they're always systematically correct when two humans are playing the game.

Besides, I've already stressed that it's not based on my experience, if it was up to me, it'd be like 8-2 Kenshi lol, I'm only pointing out the stuff that I feel Liu players don't take into account in the matchup.


There's way too much pre-emptive jumps over charge on wake-up after a knockdown in this set. If you have an inkling that it's coming, you may as well just wait and punish, Liu being one of the very few characters that can full combo punish spirit charge on block up close with 213. Admittedly it doesn't look like it reaches (and it probably doesn't at neutral frames, part of the shoulder hitbox must still be extended forward during recovery lol) but it can be done. There's virtually zero benefit to trying to jump over Kenshi that close to the corner.

Also, again, about the zoning meta of that matchup, you have to use Liu's projectiles for more than just faking-out your jump in. Pig wasn't really fishing for any reflects (granted, this might be because his Kenshi was still coming through the ranks back then, IDK) and there were several unnecessarily blocked flurries IMO.


The short answer is that because Kabal was essentially a Super Liu Kang. There are a couple of things that Liu is better at mind you, but in the grand scheme of things, if you were gravitating towards the high tiers for the sake of it, Kabal just made more sense.

Since when are matchup charts made with player skill/ability taken into account?? They are made imagining the characters playing at the highest level and taking into account the tools each has, and that is what determines the matchup numbers. Also kabal is not a super liu kang lol, liu has no mixups other than 21 low fireball and and f3 on jump in. He has decent zoning and and 2 really good strings, thats it.

 

[Peckapowa]

@Peckapowa, can you plz explain why would Ermac tp vs LK's fireballs? I can just dash d3, avoid the fireball and check you with a TKP afterwards. Saying that its 6-4 cause Ermac will always tp against LK's fireball is not the best way to judge the MU.

Imo its an even MU cause Ermac can check LK most of the times when not close, and there is not much LK can do to counter that. Up close LK wins, hands down, but he must first approach Ermac and that is no easy task. At sweep range Ermac has better tools than LK (instant air-blast, d3, d4), so he can check him from that distance as well. Plus dont forget Ermac's huge damage output.

Post edited.

Ermac can't counterzone liu on reaction at full screen and punish him for it, it means liu isn't forced to advance outside of push distance because he can out fireball ermac. I'm just illustrating liu has an advantage in that particular aspect of the mu. At push range liu kang is A phenomenal gap closer with his f2 or he can mix in fireballs. This means liu isn't pressured to get in as much and he's competitive in the neutral where ermac shines. Considering the footsies and pressure adv. I noted i thought liu had an adv. but, having a high hitbox andhaving to deal with air blast and ermacs other midrange and aerial told I think it keeps it close. I see ur point though. It could be around 5-5

 

[MadPropz101]

Kang wasn't often used at a high level because not many people know how to play him at a high level .

That must be the case, cause he pretty much has the best juggles in the game, requires no meter for his combos, an insanely fast low string, decent anti-zoning and a parry that can be mb'd to punish into a 30%+ combo.

 

[Peckapowa]

I don't think the kabal matchup is as bad as you say. Full screen you can low fireball and it recovers fast enough to not get hit by ex nomad dash and buzzsaw. Up close he has fast enough normals to hold his own. Only bad thing is his big hitbox. I think it should be closer to 5-5,or at least 4.5-5.5

Not a chance in hell, low fb isn't enough, great kabals can toy and evade and trade with liu, then considering liu literally cannot deal with kabals pressure very well at all I've always felt it's really not close. Doesn't mean I don't think a great liu can beat a very goid kabal, but when it comes to mastery of the game kabal dominant. The one thing I will say is lu can iafb over saws and lab under blasts. If your execution is perfect then maybe 4-6, but then consider kabals with perfect execution.

 

[Peckapowa]

Since when are matchup charts made with player skill/ability taken into account?? They are made imagining the characters playing at the highest level and taking into account the tools each has, and that is what determines the matchup numbers. Also kabal is not a super liu kang lol, liu has no mixups other than 21 low fireball and and f3 on jump in. He has decent zoning and and 2 really good strings, thats it.

3 amazing strings. F12, 213, and b312,are all amazing.

 

[Peckapowa]

I feel that Smoke might beat Loo Cang. Also, any time Smokes D1 is blocked, regardless of whether it's canceled or not, Kang can full combo punish it with b3. Smoke better play keep away and use his smoke cloud to bait a whiff, or to get away and throw smoke bombs. Kang cannot throw projectiles or he gets parried. Kangs fastest move is 7 frames I think and Smokes is 6 frames, so after a blocked b3,1,2 Smoke would counter hit kangs d3 giving him an advantage so Kang better respect Smokes normals in that situation or take the risk that he won't poke.

I rarely use d3 when I'm neutral with liu. I use 213 to setup whiff punish, I block and counter poke with b3 or I follow up with a full string or jump. Getting hit by a shitty d1 is nothing if I react and block after if I did a full string. I punish d1 a lot on block whether cancelled or not

The problem is smoke bomb is a threat and it can't be punished on reaction. If smoke had normal damage I'd see liu possibly winning but the damage keeps it evenish. Seeing the way a player like xarakamaka plays liu vs smoke will open your eyes.

 

[Peckapowa]

I'm talking about my personal track record against Liu Kang with Kenshi. In the same respect that 16 Bit almost always got the job done against top Kabal mains, but it doesn't mean Kitana beats Kabal.

Trust me, the standing 2 does reach after a blocked SC up close, even though it doesn't look like it would. Although I don't reasonably expect anybody to punish it properly online. If I had better recording equipment I would demonstrate.

The kenshi has to be mentally retarded at spacing to get punished by 213 after charge.. If anything liu can f12 check him, but at a lot of spacing a it opens him up to armor and backwards walking.

 

[Peckapowa]

Since when are matchup charts made with player skill/ability taken into account?? They are made imagining the characters playing at the highest level and taking into account the tools each has, and that is what determines the matchup numbers. Also kabal is not a super liu kang lol, liu has no mixups other than 21 low fireball and and f3 on jump in. He has decent zoning and and 2 really good strings, thats it.

It's important to take into account human reaction and be realistic but I find people set the bar low often

 

[Peckapowa]

That's the thing though, Kenshi will never ever have a reason to give a shit about flying kick, enhanced or not. If you're gonna use meter it's probably more worth saving it for X-ray, perhaps just for the threat of it, even though it normally whiffs up close, it will hit Kenshi at any range, even crouching, and gives you a good chunk of unbreakable damage. If you have the life lead from there and Kenshi has to mount the offense, low dragon fire ducks under flurry, and it's a crap shoot as to whether or not TKS will get stuffed in a trade.

Also about reflect, I can't vouch for sure if this comes into play with Liu, but one thing I noticed that KH Cat does in the Kenshi/Kabal matchup is alternating the height of IAGB very slightly, making anticipatory reflects whiff and whiff punishes accordingly. Instant air dragon fire actually has slightly faster trajectory, so it's worth a shot.

I've personally had no problems with the matchup from Kenshi's perspective, but I still feel it's one of the more mis-approached matchups in the game, if not the most.

Ok the mind game and proper use of his iafbs( I'm not consistent enough to do this) are a fair point. The difference is kabal has buzzsaw to fall back on and liu doesn't, my friend literally crouches at midscreen and waits to reflect low Fbs on reaction. You are optionless at that range. Once this occurs here come the oh slashes over and over. All kenshi needs is one knockdown to get the zoning adv. with perfect iafb it might change things but it doesn't change them a lot. At midscreen kenshis almost in sweet spot distance and any farther back he can be patient and judge the height, or just not give a fuck unless he's in dire need of getting in.

Also consider the spacing d1 shoulder creates up close and liu can't reallly beat it.

 

[Scott The Scot]

I rarely use d3 when I'm neutral with liu. I use 213 to setup whiff punish, I block and counter poke with b3 or I follow up with a full string or jump. Getting hit by a shitty d1 is nothing if I react and block after if I did a full string. I punish d1 a lot on block whether cancelled or not

The problem is smoke bomb is a threat and it can't be punished on reaction. If smoke had normal damage I'd see liu possibly winning but the damage keeps it evenish. Seeing the way a player like xarakamaka plays liu vs smoke will open your eyes.

Ehh, matchup charts are about the theory that both players are of equal skill, playing at the highest possible level - like, practically robots.

Also, I think there's a miscommunication between us, I'm saying that when you are neutral after getting blocked, Smoke's D1 beats all of Liu Kang's attacking options since he has nothing fast enough to beat Smokes D1. You can block and punish it, yes, but if Smoke doesn't press D1 then he gets to start his pressure and/or get away full screen or throw. If you try to jump then Smoke can press 2 or smoke towards - it's pretty much a guess of who does what at that point like rock, paper, sissors.

I was going to say d1 beats your jumping option as well, but I'm uncertain of that.

 

[Peckapowa]

Ehh, matchup charts are about the theory that both players are of equal skill, playing at the highest possible level - like, practically robots.

Also, I think there's a miscommunication between us, I'm saying that when you are neutral after getting blocked, Smoke's D1 beats all of Liu Kang's attacking options since he has nothing fast enough to beat Smokes D1. You can block and punish it, yes, but if Smoke doesn't press D1 then he gets to start his pressure and/or get away full screen or throw. If you try to jump then Smoke can press 2 or smoke towards - it's pretty much a guess of who does what at that point like rock, paper, sissors.

I was going to say d1 beats your jumping option as well, but I'm uncertain of that.

Depends on spacing. It's just I think when the options interact lius got the best risk reward

 

[Scott The Scot]

Depends on spacing. It's just I think when the options interact lius got the best risk reward

You can apply that logic to quite a lot of things, if the spacing between them both is at absolute max then Smoke gets to get away for free with a Smoke away. Then he can play his RSB game and control the pace of the match. On top of that, Smoke out damages Kang - at the highest level this is 6 - 4 in Smoke's favour at best, possibly only 5.5 - 4.5 because Kang does actually have a decent mixup game and good footsie tools.

 

[STRYKIE]

The standing 2 does not reach please stop lol.

Ehh... fuck it. Video coming later tonight.

The kenshi has to be mentally retarded at spacing to get punished by 213 after charge.. If anything liu can f12 check him, but at a lot of spacing a it opens him up to armor and backwards walking.

I'm talking about on knockdown because the Liu player in that video kept trying to jump over the charge on wake-up. Personally I wouldn't use it to interrupt pressure.

 

[Deyrax]

This matchup chart is probably as shitty as OP's Kang.

 

[KH_Seraph]

You can apply that logic to quite a lot of things, if the spacing between them both is at absolute max then Smoke gets to get away for free with a Smoke away. Then he can play his RSB game and control the pace of the match. On top of that, Smoke out damages Kang - at the highest level this is 6 - 4 in Smoke's favour at best, possibly only 5.5 - 4.5 because Kang does actually have a decent mixup game and good footsie tools.

^ Pretty much this. At highest level, Liu has to pretty much be on point with capitalizing on every opening or mistake Smoke makes with regard to frames/gaps in pressure, and has to be really careful/unpredictable about zoning, and read smoke bombs with IAFBs, or flying kicks.

The only issue in this situation is that Liu can only do so much from a distance. Yeah sure he scores a single hit, but a hit from Smoke's smoke bomb results in a full combo punish.

It's 5.5-4.5 Smoke favor, maybe 6-4...But it's a damn fun matchup IMO to play and feels really rewarding when you beat an equally skilled Smoke with Liu.

 

[Phosferrax]

I've just had a though about player 1 Kang against Shang. Shang can do b121 (7f start-up) to beat out Kang's 8f standing 2, so he can't just mash standing 2 and beat Shang's launcher. He can still parry though obvs. It doesn't mean it's not in Shang's favour anymore at p2, but it does widen the guessing game.

@Peckapowa @xHolmesyx

 

[StevoSuprem0]

MK9 MU Charts?

 

[xHolmesyx]

I've just had a though about player 1 Kang against Shang. Shang can do b121 (7f start-up) to beat out Kang's 8f standing 2, so he can't just mash standing 2 and beat Shang's launcher. He can still parry though obvs. It doesn't mean it's not in Shang's favour anymore at p2, but it does widen the guessing game.

@Peckapowa @xHolmesyx

B1 is 9 frames mate not 7.

 

[Phosferrax]

B1 is 9 frames mate not 7.

I mean during fireball pressure, he's still pooped against Kang's pressure though.