Match-up Discussion My Final Judgment on Sonya vs. Kitana

[MortySeinfeld]

She does when you're dealing with such a good d4 and safe armor. If you try to f21 her d4 midscreen, even when you hit her, half the time the 1 won't connect and she can full combo it

Can't you do F2 xx Fan (combo) or some other option than completing the string? Isn't it just the '1' portion that whiffs?

 

[MortySeinfeld]

But now sonya has kitana attacking her, see what happens? Kitana is taking the risk there. I'm starting to see how this could be advantage Sonya.
EDIT: I officially have this match as 6-4 sonya. Too easy for sonya to just walk her down into footsies, where they are even, and when sonya gets in she is practically garrunteed a life lead resulting in the fact that kitana has to attack which gives sonya a huge edge.

Kitana is incredibly good at whiff punishing in general, the problem is that people need to work on how to do it.

Kitana's 21 string has a deceivingly far reaching hitbox on it, is fast and hit-confirmable.
Kitana's F21 string also advances her very far and is hit-confirmable (is a little bit slower however).

If more Kitana players worked on sitting just outside of the range where people want to get in/bait normal attacks and reacted accordingly, I think they would have more success.

 

[MortySeinfeld]

I always hear people complain about Kitana's f21, but do they realize if we're off by only a fraction of an amount the 1 will whiff and we eat a full combo? It annoys me how even if I think I've spaced correctly and connect the f2, the following 1 can stiff whiff and get me blown up.

I know my opinion doesn't mean much, but in my head I've always thought Kitana/Sonya was something like 5-5. The reason being that Kitana can use "Kitana Tactics" (life lead + fans + ass), but when Sonya has momentum and speed up close, Kitana has no reliable way to escape without risking the Sonya player making a correct read with a divekick or armored kartwheel combo into 35-45% damage.

**shrugs and asses away**

Kitana can pretty safely get away from Sonya after a knockdown with Square Wave.

 

[THTB]

On one end, you can see where it's 5-5. On another, you can see where it's 4-6 Sonya. Either way, the matchup is close to even, debatably in Sonya's favor.

 

[Dizzy]

MortySeinfeld

I don't get why sonya players do D4 MS on wakeup against kitana. You talked about it a few pages back and every sonya I have seen does this and gets blown up by wakeup cutters. Why even take the risk? Just do D4, if it hits you have advantage to do D4 MS or dash up and do something else. If they try square boost you still get a juggle and can go into a dash 1 combo.

I see no reason to even go for D4 MS on her wakeup, if you are going to assume they wont do a wake up attack you can just go up and do whatever you like, and if you want to take zero risk (the best option that is rarely used from what i've seen of Sonya players against Kitana) you can do D4 (no MS) on wake up.

 

[GamerBlake90]

If they try square boost you still get a juggle and can go into a dash 1 combo.

If the Square Boost Wake-Up is timed well enough, it'll get invincibility frames that allow Kitana to escape for free.

 

[Dizzy]

If the Square Boost Wake-Up is timed well enough, it'll get invincibility frames that allow Kitana to escape for free.

No, that only happens if you mistime your D4, or if they use EX.

It's not the easiest thing in the world, but numbers are not based on what is easy. It is definitely 100% viable.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I never understood why sonya's would use d4 ms on my wakeup, it's a free cutter/lift lol. But yea, i pretty much agree with what Dizzy is saying.

 

[16 Bit]

Sonya almost certainly wins this MU. I think a player of Dizzy's caliber when it comes to the spacing and obscure punishes in the Kitana MU would make this obvious. I don't want to hear about how fan zoning and d+1 makes this even in late 2012.

Also I dispute the premise that because this MU has been played a lot recently by good players that the MU has been played at the highest level.

 

[Mr. Mileena]

People to this day still do not know how to deal with Kitana's spacing and gimmicks.

She's good, but she's uplayed quite a bit.

 

[GamerBlake90]

This is quite possibly one of the most debatable match-up discussions I've ever seen.

You have some Sonya/Kitana players who see this match-up as 5-5, while others claim it's 6-4 on Sonya's side.

All I'm going to say is: if it were truly in someone's advantage, I don't think half of these talks would be happening. I've hated fighting Kitana for months, and I always will.

I do eagerly anticipate this topic carrying over to the next Kitana Kouncil, or a Sonya Kouncil. The sooner it happens, the better.

 

[Jimmypotato]

It also makes punishing pokes more dangerous with DK since one bad read leads to... plug your ears dood.... 50% unbreakable kombo punish.

lmfao, you tell me what your doing to get 50% unbreakable off a blocked Dive kick, I wanna play the game your playing lol,

 

[Jimmypotato]

This is quite possibly one of the most debatable match-up discussions I've ever seen.

You have some Sonya/Kitana players who see this match-up as 5-5, while others claim it's 6-4 on Sonya's side.

All I'm going to say is: if it were truly in someone's advantage, I don't think half of these talks would be happening. I've hated fighting Kitana for months, and I always will.

I do eagerly anticipate this topic carrying over to the next Kitana Kouncil, or a Sonya Kouncil. The sooner it happens, the better.

Sonya players downplay and say it's 5-5 or posibly in kitanas favor because they still don't know what there doing when they fight Kitana,

Kitana players know it's 6-4 Sonya and think it's funny when they can easily beat most Sonyas

 

[GamerBlake90]

Sonya players downplay and say it's 5-5 or posibly in kitanas favor because they still don't know what there doing when they fight Kitana,

Kitana players know it's 6-4 Sonya and think it's funny when they can easily beat most Sonyas

We should ban the term "downplay" from the community.

 

[rev0lver]

Can't you do F2 xx Fan (combo) or some other option than completing the string? Isn't it just the '1' portion that whiffs?

Yeah you can use ex fan. Then congrats, you just used a bar on something that only sometimes works. F2 ex fan is more of a desperation move.

 

[rev0lver]

Kitana is incredibly good at whiff punishing in general, the problem is that people need to work on how to do it.

No shit, that's the basis of a lot of her matches. Against Sonya I can't do that, unless you're being a dumbass and just throwing out normal strings from that distance instead of using something like your d4.

I look forward to the next time I can learn such excellent Kitana knowledge from you though. Maybe you can teach me how to use my character sometime.

 

[xKhaoTik]

No shit, that's the basis of a lot of her matches. Against Sonya I can't do that, unless you're being a dumbass and just throwing out normal strings from that distance instead of using something like your d4.

I look forward to the next time I can learn such excellent Kitana knowledge from you though. Maybe you can teach me how to use my character sometime.

lol relax rev

 

[BillStickers]

Lots of things wrong in this thread here:

- Sonya players, for the love of CHRIST, please stop downplaying iADK. I've played Blake's Sonya many times, and iADK is not full combo punishable at the lowest level and from the correct spacing. The best you get is a block string or a throw attempt. Morty's much-heralded Sonya guide even says this.

- It's insane to me how Sonya players claim to be able to deal with Kabal's ridiculous zoning, yet are somehow free to a slower, less damaging projectile.
(Kabal gets a full combo + pressure off of an iAGB).

- Once Sonya touches Kitana, Kitana's options are very limited (basically to walking/jumping backward). Poking is out of the question (hello divekick), ducking is ill advised (d1 comes out in 5 frames after msf1), going for b3 gets you ex cartwheeled, etc.). Sonya has an UNIMAGINABLE number of 100% safe options, while Kitana's best play is 1/4 to 3/4 screen away. Even at that space, Sonya has no trouble turtling and/or safe baiting.

- Are we even remembering that Sonya's strings come with free, SAFE, 33/33/33s? Kitana has NONE of that bullshit. If anything, this showdown did nothing but put Sonya players on blast for being too fucking predictable.

The strange thing is that almost all Kitana players I know have played Sonya (Me, Blake, Mr. Mileena, rev0lver, Khaotik) at some point, so we are well aware of the limitations of both characters. This is undoubtedly a 6-4 for Sonya.

 

[xKhaoTik]

I mean, at the end of the day, it's just a number lol. Bad, or even, I think its safe to say that almost every Kitana has overcame her bad MU's at a tourney. This thread has been going on for a couple days now and a conclusion has yet to be surfaced, so a continued argument is pointless at this point.

At the end of the day, if anyone did win this MU, it's Sonya. That's all that matters imo

 

[YOMI DJT]

its not 5-5. saying its 5 5 is more of a personal number. The more professional right number is 6-4 sonya

 

[GamerBlake90]

its not 5-5. saying its 5 5 is more of a personal number. The more professional right number is 6-4 sonya

Tell that to the top Sonyas who agree with me. If there were "professional right numbers," these talks wouldn't be happening.

 

[Jimmypotato]

Tell that to the top Sonyas who agree with me. If there were "professional right numbers," these talks wouldn't be happening.

Death doesn't count, he downplays because he thinks it's funny lol.

It's 6-4, thats the conclusion of the thread, since this is in the Kitana Forum, Kitana players win.

 

[BillStickers]

I mean, at the end of the day, it's just a number lol. Bad, or even, I think its safe to say that almost every Kitana has overcame her bad MU's at a tourney. This thread has been going on for a couple days now and a conclusion has yet to be surfaced, so a continued argument is pointless at this point.

At the end of the day, if anyone did win this MU, it's Sonya. That's all that matters imo

Khaotik, this is the kind of nonsense that plagues the Jade forums. Your statements indicate a very clear misunderstanding of what matchup discussion *is* at a fundamental level. Saying that you're adamant that you personally think the matchup is even, but that Sonya probably wins isn't what MU discussion is about.

16 Bit has said this numerous times, but it's worth repeating: just because a particular matchup is bad doesnt mean you can't overcome it or that your character is terrible. The idea is to recognize the imbalance and then learn how to compensate for it.

 

[GamerBlake90]

Death doesn't count, he downplays because he thinks it's funny lol.

That, I will completely agree with. LOL. Sorry Death.

It's 6-4, thats the conclusion of the thread, since this is in the Kitana Forum, Kitana players win.

Discussion isn't over until I choose to close the thread. Nice try, though.

 

[MortySeinfeld]

No shit, that's the basis of a lot of her matches. Against Sonya I can't do that, unless you're being a dumbass and just throwing out normal strings from that distance instead of using something like your d4.

I look forward to the next time I can learn such excellent Kitana knowledge from you though. Maybe you can teach me how to use my character sometime.

Just watch 16-Bit or CD or someone that is significantly better than you.