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Match-up Discussion My Final Judgment on Sonya vs. Kitana

Five-motherfucking-five. And I'll tell you why. I'm only going to explain it once, so read carefully.

Regardless of whatever you may think, it takes effort for Sonya to get in on Kitana whether she has the life lead or not. You can duck the fans, sure, but if you're just whiffing pokes trying to get in, you run the risk of eating Kitana's long-ranged f2 1, or f2 EX Fan which also leads to a full combo. Dash-blocking doesn't lessen the danger of the fans as her hitbox has to be lifted high enough for them to make contact. And the shoulder charge from Sonya's stance also loses to fans, so it isn't as useful.

Jumping to approach is no better, obviously. One air fan and you can say good-bye to around 30% of your life and you're sent back to zoning range. Kitana's air control is greater than Sonya's. I've had my uppercut anti-air attempts stuffed by her jumpkick, which also leads to a combo off an air fan. She can also feint the jump-in using a fan to bait a failed anti-air attempt so that she can charge in.

Both these characters can punish each other at high damage levels without meter. This is another aspect of the match-up that makes it even. You cannot make mistakes if you want to keep your life bar. Potentially it could take two full combos to finish you in one round, if my calculations are correct.

Once Sonya scores a knockdown, she has an advantage...for the most part. If Kitana tries to wake up with anything other than a Square Wave Dash, you can do a d4 without cancelling into Military Stance or Cartwheel so as to overrule the attempt. If you do cancel into a special, your hitbox will lift back up and you will be caught in Kitana's attack. Square Wave Dash is Kitana's best Wake-Up option at this point - actually it is her best escape option in general, as it will always get her out of range from Sonya's attacks. You can't even hit her with a Sonic Ring before she recovers.

If you expect to stand back the entire match trying to lame Kitana out while you're ahead in life, good luck with that, because it's unrealistic. Like Sonya, Kitana has solid ways of entering close-range combat. Good as Sonya's projectile is, Kitana's fans and long-range normals give her just as much of an edge. She has options to even the playing field.

If it's d4 - Military Stance - f1 that bothers you so much, let me tell you this: so what? After blocking the f1, the fastest follow-ups Sonya can get are d1 and instant-air divekick. The d1 can be blocked and counter-poked (she can't get another stance follow-up off the blocked d1 as it provides no cancel advantage), and if the divekick is blocked, Sonya loses half her life. A third potential option is EX Cartwheel, but this here is a guess as to whether Kitana will anticipate this or not. She can jump away as the move is 23 frames, or she can block and gain momentum. If she doesn't read the EX Cartwheel, she loses 30% and is put into another mix-up situation. Ultimately, you can afford to take a little chip off of that, it's no big deal when you have the ability to make up for it with tons of damage.

Corner games, you say? What corner games? I referred to Kitana's best escape option in Square Wave three paragraphs above. Good luck trying to contain her there and then having to work your way in again, Sonya. Admittedly, I don't see Kitana's corner game as anything better than Sonya's, unless I am wrong.

And Kitana's d1...God, I hate it. It's just as annoying as Sonya's d4. Long range and keeps out the opponent pretty well. It does fail as an anti cross-up, however, but saying Kitana is free to cross-ups shows how ignorant you are of her potential as a character, even if you have the threat of divekick to turn it into a 50/50.

While we're on the subject of the d1, I'm hearing how Sonya's divekick can blow up Kitana's pokes. Well, that's only true if her poke is whiffed; on block, I'm sure as Hell not gonna punish it when I know you can cancel into Fan Cutter so that if I try, you either send me back to the other side of the screen or get massive hit advantage which allows you to do a jump-in punch 1 1 2 Cutter. It may not be a combo like how one would get off a divekick, but it's still a pain to contend with. I don't even think Kitana's at enough disadvantage off a blocked poke to be punished by the move.

I am not here to put Kitana players on blast, as I love their community to death, but why they have preached constantly about this match-up being in Sonya's favor eludes my comprehension. At one point, I had Kitana at 6-4 advantage, but changed it to 5-5 when I discovered how equal the threat in their options was, and still I find this match-up one of the most aggravating to play, even after months and months of playing MK9. I spend more than half the match chasing Kitana rather than beating the shit out of her.

It's gotten to the point where I prefer fighting Kenshi over Kitana. That right there just screams to you how much I hate this match-up, if it makes me want to fight that blind bastard with telekinesis that overpowers Ermac's.

This is not downplaying or up-playing at all. This is me relaying my experiences against Kitana to you guys. If you continue to insist that Sonya has the upper hand, then I do not know what else I can tell you. I find it insulting that some people seem to see Sonya as a character who doesn't need to work hard to handle a good Kitana, because ultimately, she does. Mind you, I do not have this view on Kitana as a character. I'm saying they both have to be on point.

So now that I have given my thoughts on the match-up, I leave it to you guys to give yours. Discuss, please.
Thanks for posting this.

I played this matchup a shit ton last night and came to pretty much the same conclusions.

The reality of it is that Kitana's hitboxes contain Sonya incredibly well.

One thing I would also like to note (even though this is almost trivial), the Square Wave can be punished on wake-up in the following manner:

- d4 xx MS (wait for square wave on wakeup), 2 (shoulder charge)

The problem with this as Blake has already noted is that d4 xx MS pressure on wake-up can get blown up by wake-up cutter and EX Lift.

If the Kitana player is wake-up happy with Cutter, you can try stepping backwards and whiff punishing it with dive-kick.

Whiff punishing most of Kitana's strings is very difficult because you have to be just outside of a deceivingly long range that really doesn't encourage Kitana to do much aside from continue to throw fans.

I am also sorry to say, but if you are a Kitana player and you get stomped by Sonya in this matchup; You really need to level up and stop downplaying your character.

Edit: Another thing, Sonya's pressure also ends after D4 xx MS F1.

The reason is because Kitana has an awkward hitbox and a long ranged-counter poke where D1 xx MS (mixup options) are non-existent.

Sonya cannot really counter-poke d1 with much of anything to maintain pressure (aside from a d1 of her own or attempt a dive-kick *RISK*).
 
sonyas instant dive kick kills kitanas pressure game, that and the armor on cartwheel, gives her that slight advantage, kitana can't do nothing up close, she needs to get life lead and run and hope the sonya fucks up, but sonya has options to get in, it's not that hard, F2,1 is -1 on block as well, so thats a not a threat to sonya,

kitana has no wake up game either,

sonya has the slight advantage in tool set,

when the match is played it comes down to player skill, but if you had equally matched skilled players sonya wins it man, it's not huge, but 6-4.

could be 5.5-4.5, but the advantage is there, I've played the match up tons offline and online, just my opinion.
It sounds like you need to work on blocking/punishing/spacing/zoning.
 

Illmatix

Remember, representing ermac is illmatic.
i was rooting for sonya but i still hate both characters a lot lol, it was kinda funny to see a character i struggle against get lamed out so easily. iaf are just ridiculous.
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
Edit: Another thing, Sonya's pressure also ends after D4 xx MS F1.

The reason is because Kitana has an awkward hitbox and a long ranged-counter poke where D1 xx MS (mixup options) are non-existent.

Sonya cannot really counter-poke d1 with much of anything to maintain pressure (aside from a d1 of her own or attempt a dive-kick *RISK*).
That's just it, Morty. It's common to see Sonya's rushdown labeled as "pressure" when it is mix-ups that define her game, mix-ups that are admittedly godlike. d4 MS f1 is simply a blockstring, there is no way to continue pressure off of it against anyone in the cast. Since d1 hits high, the height at which they block it means nothing, and as you correctly say, divekick is a risk that will get you punished by a full combo if it fails.

What I notice is that so many people have difficulty punishing the divekick. I do not understand why this is the case...it's like what, -23 on block? And taking a risk with instant-air divekick is no different from Kung Lao's Spin, Kabal's EX Dash, Reptile's Elbow Dash, etc.
 
This is soooo 6-4 sonya. Do I have to pick sonya back up again to prove this theory? This is in sonyas favor. Kitana literally can't do any jump kick air fans because thats full combo punishable by ex cartwheel and sonya can zone kitana. Shes also got armor, MS mixups that are too overwhelming, her 40-50 combos that give her a reset and a chance to do more 50-50s. Theres a new PSN user that uses sonya and hes sick. It might be another account made by death because he plays sorta similar but hes prolly the best sonya ive played yet next to F0xy's sonya when he mained her, death and riu
I think you need to continue to try to prove your point about how cheap Kabal is.

Sonya kind of has the same problems against Kabal that Cage does.
 
you know what i am tired of reading post about how sonya has a low hit box when kitana has a low hit box herself

lets stop the BS about the stupid low hit box because kinata does not get any better against characters with a big hit box
if any thing kitana having a low hit box help her a lot more in this matchu than sonya because sonya does
get better against characters with a big hit box so lets stop the bs here
Don't you like arguing with people who make arguments that are the equivalent of:

- "Dude, I beat unskilled Kitana players online all the time as Sonya. 6-4."
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
It sounds like you need to work on blocking/punishing/spacing/zoning.
who says anything about getting stomped by sonyas, getting stomped is like 8-2 7-3,

my optinion is it's 6-4 due to sonya having more options and tools in the match,

it's the character match up, not how matches go between players, just my opinion,

thank you for calling me a scrub though man, appreciate it, I def need to work on all those things, I should learn how to play the game actually.

there are better players then me claiming it to be 5-5 and I respect that, but people say alotta things about match ups, the one example being kitana Kenshi,

People need to learn how to fight against kitana, no one is down playing here,
 
Don't you like arguing with people who make arguments that are the equivalent of:

- "Dude, I beat unskilled Kitana players online all the time as Sonya. 6-4."
lol yea
i elso like how fast the time in my job goes by as i post in this kind of topics lol i feel like i am working less hours by the end of my work day :)
 
who says anything about getting stomped by sonyas, getting stomped is like 8-2 7-3,

my optinion is it's 6-4 due to sonya having more options and tools in the match,

it's the character match up, not how matches go between players, just my opinion,

thank you for calling me a scrub though man, appreciate it, I def need to work on all those things, I should learn how to play the game actually.

there are better players then me claiming it to be 5-5 and I respect that, but people say alotta things about match ups, the one example being kitana Kenshi,

People need to learn how to fight against kitana, no one is down playing here,
I never called you a scrub or said that you get stomped by Sonya's.

What you quoted is what I said, and it is constructive criticism based off of what you said.
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
thank you for calling me a scrub though man, appreciate it
Hold up, where in Morty's post did he call you a "scrub?" He just advised you on the areas you may need to work on.

And if your response is to point out where Morty said "you really need to level up and stop downplaying your character," you just used similar context in your own post.
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
Hold up, where in Morty's post did he call you a "scrub?" He just advised you on the areas you may need to work on.

And if your response is to point out where Morty said "you really need to level up and stop downplaying your character," you just used similar context in your own post.
lol i just read it wrong then, when i read you need to work on Blocking/spacing/punishing/zoning, basically the fundementals of the game, i see it as, dude you don't know what the fuck your doing, I just read it wrong, I respect everyones opinion, and Im gonna try find some diff sonyas to run this with so I can learn it a bit better then, and see what you guys are talking about,

edit; oh and the other stomped thing was from that other comment, it was jumbled in my head, i guess I answered that too quick, got too defensive,

I just usually post my opinion on shit and no one agrees till a few months later, lol so i expect this to universally be 6-4 in a few months ;)
 
lol i just read it wrong then, when i read you need to work on Blocking/spacing/punishing/zoning, basically the fundementals of the game, i see it as, dude you don't know what the fuck your doing, I just read it wrong, I respect everyones opinion, and Im gonna try find some diff sonyas to run this with so I can learn it a bit better then, and see what you guys are talking about,
It sounds simple, but those are the most difficult aspects of any fighting game.
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
who said it solves everything? but it's a great tool to have especially in a match like this,

quit the sonya downplaying and learn to abuse your character ;)
*ahem* If it weren't for Smoke and Cyrax having those godlike resets, I'd have Sonya up there in top five. As it stands, she's outside of it. And where did I say EX Cartwheel isn't a great tool? Thing is, you guys seem to forget it's 23 frames, so it can be blocked or jumped away, and I'm not going to abuse it on block over and over just because it's safe. It's called meter management, which is just as important with Sonya.

I can't "abuse" anything against the options Kitana has.
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
*ahem* If it weren't for Smoke and Cyrax having those godlike resets, I'd have Sonya up there in top five. As it stands, she's outside of it. And where did I say EX Cartwheel isn't a great tool? Thing is, you guys seem to forget it's 23 frames, so it can be blocked or jumped away, and I'm not going to abuse it on block over and over just because it's safe. It's called meter management, which is just as important with Sonya.

I can't "abuse" anything against the options Kitana has.
I'll make a list of things you can abuse it against in this match up, that and instant Dive kick, will post later tonight, I have to go work on blocking,

you never said it wasn't a great tool, I just said it was, you just said we though it solved everything, I play her too, and she is wicked OP man, lol

I will never be convinced it's 5-5 lol, EVER ;)
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
I'll make a list of things you can abuse it against in this match up, that and instant Dive kick, will post later tonight, I have to go work on blocking,

you never said it wasn't a great tool, I just said it was, you just said we though it solved everything, I play her too, and she is wicked OP man, lol

I will never be convinced it's 5-5 lol, EVER ;)
And likewise, I will never be convinced that it's 6-4 Sonya. Agree to disagree.