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"Must I Remind You Of My Superiority" -- Lex Luthor General Discussion Thread

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Malec

Noob
dont know if someone tested this already. if you get pushblocked with trait up, you absorb the pushblock.
 

Noj

Noob
is there any use for his lance cancels?
One time I accidentally did it as wakeup pressure, and so I backdashed to cancel it, then Luthor rushed, and they dashed right into it. But other than tricking people with terrible reaction times (or online), not that I know of. I guess you could use it in case they jump in on you and would dodge it, but that's the whole point of charging it anyway.

Also, cool fact, I did pretty well at a recent tournament doing nothing but empty jump b1 3 / jump in j.1 b1 3 --> db2 MB combos. They're too scared you're going to throw out a corps charge somewhere and stuff their AA. Oh, and wakeup Crops Charge, TK Corps Charge (all day), and mine zoning helped a lot both for giving a massive meter advantage and keeping them from trying to rush me down. That empty jump b1 is too strong (until you get thrown). Of course, eventually someone realized I was only doing low attacks and -always- woke up with corps charge (A Killer Frost player) and I got blown up for it.

I don't know if this is 100% true, but df3 MB -> df3 seems guaranteed. And if they're in the corner, you can do it until you run out of meter on most of the cast. (df3 mb -> df3 -> df3 mb -> etc)

I also found out that MB db3 is great at mid-range for making Luthor Rush completely safe, and giving you time to set up a mixup. (His b2 comes in real handy here.)

Also, as a side note, Lex / Grundy is 7-3 Lex's favor at worst; TK corps charge makes his super armor grab whiff 100% of the time.

EDIT : I also don't know if this is 100% true, but Lex gets the same benefit from TK corps charge that Cyborg gets from TK buster; namely massively reduced recovery time. Most characters can only 'punish' it with a standing jab, and they aren't likely to be able to combo you for it. (The closer to the ground the better.) The downside is increased startup (The jump animation), but at midscreen or full screen, it's better than a dash just because it builds meter and you're a traveling hitbox.

EDIT 2 : For clarity, I renamed Luthor Rush to Corps Charge, because I don't even know the names of my own character's moves.
 

Malec

Noob
One time I accidentally did it as wakeup pressure, and so I backdashed to cancel it, then Luthor rushed, and they dashed right into it. But other than tricking people with terrible reaction times (or online), not that I know of. I guess you could use it in case they jump in on you and would dodge it, but that's the whole point of charging it anyway.

Also, cool fact, I did pretty well at a recent tournament doing nothing but empty jump b1 3 / jump in j.1 b1 3 --> db2 MB combos. They're too scared you're going to throw out a luthor rush somewhere and stuff their AA. Oh, and wakeup Luthor Rush, TK Luthor Rush (all day), and mine zoning helped a lot both for giving a massive meter advantage and keeping them from trying to rush me down. That empty jump b1 is too strong (until you get thrown). Of course, eventually someone realized I was only doing low attacks and -always- woke up with Luthor Rush (A Killer Frost player) and I got blown up for it.

I know if this is 100% true, but df3 MB -> df3 is guaranteed. And if they're in the corner, you can do it until you run out of meter on most of the cast. (df3 mb -> df3 -> df3 mb -> etc)

I also found out that MB db3 is great at mid-range for making Luthor Rush completely safe, and giving you time to set up a mixup. (His b2 comes in real handy here.)

Also, as a side note, Lex / Grundy is 7-3 Lex's favor at worst; TK Luthor Rush makes his super armor grab whiff 100% of the time.

EDIT : I also don't know if this is 100% true, but Lex gets the same benefit from TK Rush that Cyborg gets from TK buster; namely massively reduced recovery time. Most characters can only 'punish' it with a standing jab, and they aren't likely to be able to combo you for it. (The closer to the ground the better.) The downside is increased startup (The jump animation), but at midscreen or full screen, it's better than a dash just because it builds meter and you're a traveling hitbox.
what is a TK Rush?
 

Wrenchfarm

Lexcorp Proprietary Technologies
what is a TK Rush?
TK refers to Tiger Knee input from the ancient way Sagat did his TK (forward, down, diagonal, forward, forward/up), of inputting most or all of a move before hitting up to jump and springing the attack ASAP. It's big in SF and Marvel for using the airborn version of a move as close to the ground as possible, usually because it has better recovery time or will instant overhead or some other shenanigan.

I'm now embarrassed that I have never tried to TK anything in Injustice. Does that work with this fighting engine? Would going to alt-mode change anything?
 

Noj

Noob
TK refers to Tiger Knee input from the ancient way Sagat did his TK (forward, down, diagonal, forward, forward/up), of inputting most or all of a move before hitting up to jump and springing the attack ASAP. It's big in SF and Marvel for using the airborn version of a move as close to the ground as possible, usually because it has better recovery time or will instant overhead or some other shenanigan.

I'm now embarrassed that I have never tried to TK anything in Injustice. Does that work with this fighting engine? Would going to alt-mode change anything?
No, you can't actually tiger knee anything in Injustice; but I use it in reference to doing it as close to the first frame of your jump as possible. You can't do left, right, up, medium; the engine doesn't buffer quite like that. You have to actually input up, left, right, without diagonals. It takes a lot of practice on stick/pad to get it one inch off the ground, but in my opinion it's quite worth it as it's essentially unpunishable online, and offline it's rather close to it. [Except for Killer Frost, she gets a full combo punish off it regardless of how close to the ground you do it; don't use this move against her, just try to zone her out.] I personally play on hitbox [Replace the stick with buttons for the left, down, right, and up inputs], so the input difficulty is of limited concern (The same reason hitbox Cyborg is broken; Marlinpie proves this). Hitbox kind of breaks all the MK engine games though; i.e. Kabal.

Also, as far as I know, alt mode only changes it from being a back forward motion to a half-circle, which is harder to input in a frame than back forward, unless you play on pad. If you play on pad, I would seriously recommend playing alt controls for Lex so you can roll your thumb from the up motion into a half circle.
 

miloPKL

soundcloud.com/pukelization
the way you guys are using "TK" is the same as in MK we refer to 'Instant Air'? like iafb iagb iacc [fireball, gas blast, instant air corps charge]?
 

miloPKL

soundcloud.com/pukelization
i want to play this character in tournament. but as he is now, i wont change to him unless im totally out of options with my S tier character and its a MU Lex is ok-ish in. i dont know what MU Lex wins. I haven't thought long and hard about it. but this leads to my point. Lex is a bottom chara. it seems we have a very courageous and honest and level headed Lex player base. we seem to make do with what we got, stick our head down and work shit out.

what im saying is the other less viable characters, and even some of the S tiers have threads for Patch discussion.

i think its time now that we start to raise our voices about our concerns with lex. because he is such a fun character, it would be a shame if we dont get to witness high level play of lex. it would be a shame if, in 6 months time and everyone is prepared for his traps, they work on no one. this was the fate of Noob Saibot, another main of mine. even though he appeared in some tournaments, his appearance was very very rare and Noob Saibot gimmicks were not complex enough to keep people guessing after they have seen it a couple times. Cyrax on the other hand....

so yes, i dont want to sound like a crybaby bitch, but our lex community is strong and mute - i think we should start airing our concerns. maybe a dedicated Patch Discussion thread is in order?
 

Noj

Noob
i want to play this character in tournament. but as he is now, i wont change to him unless im totally out of options with my S tier character and its a MU Lex is ok-ish in. i dont know what MU Lex wins. I haven't thought long and hard about it. but this leads to my point. Lex is a bottom chara. it seems we have a very courageous and honest and level headed Lex player base. we seem to make do with what we got, stick our head down and work shit out.
His good matchups are:
Grundy : 3-7
Deathstroke : 4-6
Bane : 4.5-5.5
Hawkgirl : 4-6
Catwoman : 4.5-5.5

That's about it, though. Even matchups are Lobo, Wonder Woman, and Shazam, everything else is bad for Lex.

what im saying is the other less viable characters, and even some of the S tiers have threads for Patch discussion.

i think its time now that we start to raise our voices about our concerns with lex. because he is such a fun character, it would be a shame if we dont get to witness high level play of lex. it would be a shame if, in 6 months time and everyone is prepared for his traps, they work on no one. this was the fate of Noob Saibot, another main of mine. even though he appeared in some tournaments, his appearance was very very rare and Noob Saibot gimmicks were not complex enough to keep people guessing after they have seen it a couple times. Cyrax on the other hand....

so yes, i dont want to sound like a crybaby bitch, but our lex community is strong and mute - i think we should start airing our concerns. maybe a dedicated Patch Discussion thread is in order?
I didn't run into this problem in the tournament since next to no one plays Lex, but I can guarantee that in a few months when more people know about his gimmicks, he will become even worse. The only time I would play him is as a counterpick to Solomon Grundy, or Deathstroke, and that's just because air corps charge destroys both of those characters. I'm not saying he's unplayable, but goddamn, he's only got one mix-up (not including his terrible strings, he's got b2/b1, and b2 into CC does no damage) and all of his zoning can be avoided if you know how it works. If his b2 could combo into something other than just CC, he'd be worlds better, though.

EDIT : They need to give us a reason to throw out db3 without meter burn, too. It does next to no damage, you can't capitalize off it, and it's terrible at tracking.
 
i want to play this character in tournament. but as he is now, i wont change to him unless im totally out of options with my S tier character and its a MU Lex is ok-ish in. i dont know what MU Lex wins. I haven't thought long and hard about it. but this leads to my point. Lex is a bottom chara. it seems we have a very courageous and honest and level headed Lex player base. we seem to make do with what we got, stick our head down and work shit out.

what im saying is the other less viable characters, and even some of the S tiers have threads for Patch discussion.

i think its time now that we start to raise our voices about our concerns with lex. because he is such a fun character, it would be a shame if we dont get to witness high level play of lex. it would be a shame if, in 6 months time and everyone is prepared for his traps, they work on no one. this was the fate of Noob Saibot, another main of mine. even though he appeared in some tournaments, his appearance was very very rare and Noob Saibot gimmicks were not complex enough to keep people guessing after they have seen it a couple times. Cyrax on the other hand....

so yes, i dont want to sound like a crybaby bitch, but our lex community is strong and mute - i think we should start airing our concerns. maybe a dedicated Patch Discussion thread is in order?
Well the first order of business would be deciding what we would change. It's pointless to call for patches without having some sort of an idea of what could be done. As he stands, he could use more meterless combo options, a buff to his lance blaster damage, and MAYBE a slightly altered dash. The last thing that I want is a slew of changes that completely alters his playstyle. I like him because he is unique.

I also would say that he shouldnt be underestimated and is still rather unexplored. His corner potential is absolutely incredible and he has some great mixups. His corner game is really what could make him see a rise in the tier charts. He has tons of options to keep people in the corner and pump out some hefty damage.

As far as advantageous MUs go, I would say in my opinion his BEST matchups are:

Grundy
Bane
Doomsday
Flash
Green Lanturn
Batman
And possibly hawkgirl from my limited experience

I can elaborate on some of these if need be, and they are in no particular order.

Lex COULD use some changes, but I think it is important to not change him too much. We need to think of specific, small buffs to get him up to snuff with the majority of the cast. That is all he needs and we should make sure above all to not overdo it.
 

miloPKL

soundcloud.com/pukelization
yes, i will consider the match ups myself. but thanks for your input. i also do not want to change his playstyle. like i said the character rules, he's fun. like i said i just wanna start the conversation about patching because other characters are right now.

i had briefly considered less startup frames on his attacks. i didn't think a counter argument to this yet. but some of his normals and most of his specials are very slow. i know thats part of his style - knockdown and setup. but without a knockdown Lex is just shithouse. which is why strong zoners own him. his long range normals have OK-ish startup but are easily whiff punished on the inactive frames, coupled with his non-zoning, that is why he cant keep out fast rushdown characters and why it is hard to get them back out when they are in. i can hear you say pushblock. i say i dont care, we need meter for our specials and combos or we will never get any damn damage.
 

Malec

Noob
His good matchups are:

Deathstroke : 4-6
you cant be serious, sry but deathstroke feels like 7-3 or even 8-2 to me. i can handel alot of zoning in this game, if not all of it, except for deathstrokes. even if i FINALLY managed to inche my way in, its not like i lock him down to oblivion. i cant use any of Lex setups (mine, drone, trait) after a knockdown cause of those stupid spinning moves. its impossible to use mine/drone/trait at all in this matchup, full screen or close up. yeah i know that air spinning move is unsafe, but you still have to watch out for it.
and how can you say air corp charge destroys him? you cant jump against deathstroke.

i find myself more then anything using ji3 as my "movement" cause its the "safest" way to get in on someone. (ji2 range is to short and lex jump is to slow)
and thats why i think lex movement has to improve. i am scared to use his forward or backdash, cause of the long recovery.
and once the world knows how to punish corp charge and that i am at a huge disadvantage after ji3, this will be a hell of a time.

i also think the startup frames for his setup moves mine/drone/trait (trait would be fine with a better forward/backdash) are to long.
and they have to change something about his lance blast. either improve the damage or give lex a major advantage for canceling it in blockstrings.

if i am supposed to use my setup moves only after knock downs, then give me a way to get in on someone and i dont think beeing the slowest character in the game helps at that.
but if i am supposed to use my setup moves to get in on someone, then give me the frames to do so and not getting outzoned by every projectile in the game, so my only option is to inche in again.

-less startup frames for mine/drone (ever used an MB drone to get in on someone, got hit by a projectile, lost the meter and got no drones out? you gonna have to love those)
-improved movement with less recovery on his forward and backdash
-give lance blast a purpose to be in the game

that are my improvement suggestions
 

volkmair

Noob
In theory you should be able to use the super armour from Lex's trait to help cover his slow moves and help you get in, where this stumbles is that his trait is quite slow as well so its knowing when you can trait up and start the ball rolling.
 

Malec

Noob
In theory you should be able to use the super armour from Lex's trait to help cover his slow moves and help you get in, where this stumbles is that his trait is quite slow as well so its knowing when you can trait up and start the ball rolling.
i could see that work, instead of improving Lex movement, you could improve his trait.

-give it always 100% damage reduction and 1/2/3 armor depending on the trait lvl charges > to strong in close range, lex with probe/mine and 3 armor? hello nr.1
or
-give his trait projectile immunity, you still absorb just one hit on anything, but completly ignoring projectiles, still taking the damage depending on the lvl of trait 100%/50%/0% damage (let me be the fucking terminator who just slowly walks through that bullet storm) > makes zoning completly useless against lex
or
-remove the startup frames of his trait completly and make it instant like aquamans and get rid of the charges, 1armor/100% damage absorb/instant cast (lvl2 or 3 duration, same cooldown). (my favorite option to be honest, you could instant trait and ignoring at least the chip damage, while inching your way in)

edit:
the more i actually think about it, the more i belive an instant trait (1armor/100% damage absorb/lvl2 or 3 duration, same cooldown) could be the solution to all of lex problems.
i wouldnt care about the movement or the startup frames of his specials, because i would have at least 1armor to back me up.
slow ass drone startup? absorb one projectile or whatever and still be getting those MB drones out, so i can dash in.
getting zoned to death? trait, ignore the chip and try to manage your way in.

is there a way to talk to nrs, to let them know, what we think?
 

miloPKL

soundcloud.com/pukelization
i can live with lex normals if they reduce special startup. i dont agree with malec 100% but he is spot on in saying lex cant perform a special move (excluding CC) if the opponent is standing. lbsh this limits lex to normals and corpse charge only. thats really harsh. lex cant really open up the opponent either, inching our way in and pray for a whiff punish or try to bait attack. many characters have a strong ability to keepaway or push you full screen.
 

miloPKL

soundcloud.com/pukelization
d3 should combo into mine, or cancel advantage from d3 should allow a setup. in the same way you can cancel d2 into mine.
 

Wrenchfarm

Lexcorp Proprietary Technologies
I think it's obvious that Lex is a bottom tier character right now. I'll still play Lex regardless because I just love big stompy robots, but it would be nice to not have to work twice as hard as everyone else for wins. I don't want to see him get crazy buffed to the point where everyone is hopping on the bandwagon, but basic viability would be a treat.

Suggested buffs/changes -

1,1 string hitbox expanded to hit ducking/moving/short characters. The fact that one of his "quickest" normals can be totally ducked by most of the cast is ridiculous. The only other option is b1 which you need to be in spitting distance for.

Staff blast damage increase. PROVISO - I'm trying to figure out NRs design making it so weak. 3% damage, slow start up, slow travel. It's like they did everything they could to say "hey, don't use this as a projectile". But the other elements of it's design don't seem useful. Charging it is a pipedream and will always be stuffed (not that it does damage anyway), it can be dash cancelled, are we supposed to be using it to make unsure strings safe? Cause that don't work so well. Maybe some smart Johnny will figure out what this move is SUPPOSED to do and it will be great and gamechanging and it won't need a damage buff. But until that day, 8% damage like everyone else would be super.

Speed up drone toss. If Lex could block a projectile and get a probe up before eating the next shot it would infinitely help Lex deal with zoners. Projectile heavy characters would have to lay off after a blocked shot and probe deployment or eat tiny probe laser damage while Lex moves in. A balance would have to be found between helping Lex and not crippling zoners ability to use their tools, but if DD can just pop super armour for 5 seconds on a button tap, Lex can probably be given a few options without breaking the game.

--
Letting Lex trait up instantly sounds great, it would certainly give him the breathing room he needs to get his toys out. But I think it would require some testing to make sure it didn't make him broken as fuck.
 

BDMao88

Filthy Casual
Wrenchfarm

I don't know if you have seen one of my previous posts, but I recommend Lex's probe do more damage so people respect it, it's a measly 2%. I think if they made his air charge 0 frames on recovery it would improve his game a lot more to get in.

With those two changes I feel like Lex would be much more viable.
 

PRS

Xbl: dem0neyes
Wrenchfarm

I don't know if you have seen one of my previous posts, but I recommend Lex's probe do more damage so people respect it, it's a measly 2%. I think if they made his air charge 0 frames on recovery it would improve his game a lot more to get in.

With those two changes I feel like Lex would be much more viable.
In regards to what Wrenchfarm was saying I think both your ideas for the probe buff could be useful depending on how NRS wants Lex to use it. Is it supposed to be used as a legit projectile (in which case your buff makes sense), or is it supposed to be used as means to help get in (in which case Wrenchfarm's buff applies a bit more). I personally side with using it to help get in and buff the damage on the staff blast b/c i think that move seems like it's supposed to be his legit projectile.
 

Noj

Noob
you cant be serious, sry but deathstroke feels like 7-3 or even 8-2 to me. i can handel alot of zoning in this game, if not all of it, except for deathstrokes. even if i FINALLY managed to inche my way in, its not like i lock him down to oblivion. i cant use any of Lex setups (mine, drone, trait) after a knockdown cause of those stupid spinning moves. its impossible to use mine/drone/trait at all in this matchup, full screen or close up. yeah i know that air spinning move is unsafe, but you still have to watch out for it.
and how can you say air corp charge destroys him? you cant jump against deathstroke.
You wait until he's shot his guns, then instead of dashing, you jump, and Corps Charge at the top of your jump height. Suddenly, you're saying 'Hello' to his face. If you block the spinning sword move, you get a free 33%+ punish off it, and if he hits with it all he does is ~10%, so I'd say you should just block on Deathstroke's wakeup. If he sword moves, sucks to be him, if not, you're still right next to him which is where he doesn't want you to be.

i find myself more then anything using ji3 as my "movement" cause its the "safest" way to get in on someone. (ji2 range is to short and lex jump is to slow)
and thats why i think lex movement has to improve. i am scared to use his forward or backdash, cause of the long recovery.
and once the world knows how to punish corp charge and that i am at a huge disadvantage after ji3, this will be a hell of a time.

i also think the startup frames for his setup moves mine/drone/trait (trait would be fine with a better forward/backdash) are to long.
and they have to change something about his lance blast. either improve the damage or give lex a major advantage for canceling it in blockstrings.

if i am supposed to use my setup moves only after knock downs, then give me a way to get in on someone and i dont think beeing the slowest character in the game helps at that.
but if i am supposed to use my setup moves to get in on someone, then give me the frames to do so and not getting outzoned by every projectile in the game, so my only option is to inche in again.

-less startup frames for mine/drone (ever used an MB drone to get in on someone, got hit by a projectile, lost the meter and got no drones out? you gonna have to love those)
-improved movement with less recovery on his forward and backdash
-give lance blast a purpose to be in the game

that are my improvement suggestions
I heavily agree with less startup frames on the drone; as-is it's entirely worthless without MB, and with it all it can do is cover you getting in. If he had a better dash, it'd be kind of overpowered, since instant air Corps Charge is what you should be using for a forward dash, and his backdash is good enough to get out of Superman's punch punch Icebreath string, which is all you really need. Lance Blast is pretty 'meh' as you said, though. I honestly tried to make use out of it, I really did, but why lance blast when you could mine / trait, as both of those are better options?

I think it's obvious that Lex is a bottom tier character right now. I'll still play Lex regardless because I just love big stompy robots, but it would be nice to not have to work twice as hard as everyone else for wins. I don't want to see him get crazy buffed to the point where everyone is hopping on the bandwagon, but basic viability would be a treat.

Suggested buffs/changes -

1,1 string hitbox expanded to hit ducking/moving/short characters. The fact that one of his "quickest" normals can be totally ducked by most of the cast is ridiculous. The only other option is b1 which you need to be in spitting distance for.
Nah, this would be too good. It's more than enough that he can combo d1 into db2, if I had known that I would've done far better at the tournament. Plus, the 112 string isn't even very good, except as a punishment to something unsafe. Mid-mid-high, with the most broadcasted high attack in the game? Nah, I'll stick to empty jumps b1 / j.2, thanks.

Staff blast damage increase. PROVISO - I'm trying to figure out NRs design making it so weak. 3% damage, slow start up, slow travel. It's like they did everything they could to say "hey, don't use this as a projectile". But the other elements of it's design don't seem useful. Charging it is a pipedream and will always be stuffed (not that it does damage anyway), it can be dash cancelled, are we supposed to be using it to make unsure strings safe? Cause that don't work so well. Maybe some smart Johnny will figure out what this move is SUPPOSED to do and it will be great and gamechanging and it won't need a damage buff. But until that day, 8% damage like everyone else would be super.
Wow, giving a -reason- to put staff blast out? That would be cool; I think I've used that move a total of thirty times in over five hundred matches. It's even less useful than his drones. I wouldn't say charging it is a pipe dream, you can totally start charging when they're at mid-screen, and have it fully charged by the time they jump in... twice at you. Right into it's unblockable area... Because they don't know what they're doing...

--
Letting Lex trait up instantly sounds great, it would certainly give him the breathing room he needs to get his toys out. But I think it would require some testing to make sure it didn't make him broken as fuck.
I can tell you right now, that'd be incredibly broken. His trait is -really- good, and as a balance to this, you can only use it after knockdown / when they're sitting at full screen with a non-zoning character.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
I played a ton of lex last 3 days and kinda regrown my love for him

I'm playing kareokelove tonight and hopefully can post some MU videos vs a really good DS.

Guys I'm finding a few things about lex

Great tools
B1 tick throw
B2 *stun* b13
B2 *stun*b1 throw
B2 orb b13
After every corp charge obtaining armor I go like nuts and disrespect all wake ups

Always end combos w u3 far mine dash (from here following options I see best are):
If mine hits gravity MB combo repeat
Orb to air strike FT
Orb to dash in mix up
Orb dash b1 throw

MU specifics:

I feel following are even or favorable MUs:
Joker
Ares
Doomsday
Hawk girl
WW
Bane
Superman
Batman

Disadvantage:
DS
Sinestro
Raven
Lantern


If I didn't list a MU name it's cause I know little bout it.
 
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