Breakthrough - TriBorg MKXL PATCH THOUGHTS

[DanableLector]

Truthfully what they did to cyber sub kinda ruined my experience with this game. I put so much time into csz to get my execution right and grinded out so many matchups online for what? To waste a bar on a reactable overhead midscreen for ~25% damage? To have my whiff punishing string (F13 iceball) destroyed? To have my opponent wake up grab me out of my corner setups? There's no reason to use this character anymore. Divekick being punishable is understandable even though I barely got anything from it but damage scaling when the combos NEED divekick and scaling on the drones?! Then on top of that slow down his b3 and reduce his frame advantage on freeze? Yet A-list is still fucking stupid

I couldn't have said it better myself my man. Don't forget s1(11) whiffs on everything.. In most scenarios, it is not the punish your looking for. There is no way NRS thought this through. The scaling on ice ball, and dive kick/drone buff (both non offensive moves) cancel out drone buffs damage over time.. The scaling actually devalues using drones period. Now drones only purpose is to make b2 safe, and launch f12.. Thats it. Meanwhile Jax, Kung Jin, Sonya, Mileena, Shinnok, johnny cage etc.. They exist.

 

[DanableLector]

Oh, and the corner set up its worse than Wu throws. Opponents can literally get up, and jump out now lol. B1(2+4) will stop it sometimes though if you're fast enough... @JORGIE

 

[Sultani]

I think we need another thread to discuss patch thoughts.

Hey NRS. Your patch is so fucking terrible that people are seriously convinced it's an April fools joke. Even though it's not, the fact that people are considering the possibility that it might be should tell you something.

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

Shoryuken has it on knockdown because that's how Vortexes are in 2d games with no block button.

In SF4 or KoF13 for example, a lot of vortexes were from characters that had a good crossup and can combo into a move that leads to a hard knockdown.
Eg: Akuma's sweep, you land it and go for left/right off of a jump-in or demon flip, if they get hit you can link into sweep from s.lp or off of lk tatsu and they're back in the same situation again.
You have options to get out, be it focus, armor, invincible moves or whatever but OS, safe jumps and Akuma's air angles avoided or beat a lot of those options so in the end you're stuck guessing with most characters.

In NRS games, vortexes come from restand moves, be it raw (old Trance+ bat setups) or off of a normal/string that's plus enough to guarantee an OH/low, having one (or both) options being guaranteed (as in no gap to armor/backdash etc) is simply a plus to make it even better, it isn't a neccesity for the mixup/setup to be a "vortex". If it's fuzzy-able it's still a vortex, just not a good one.
If you land the OH or low you'll still be able to get the restand and go back to the same scenario, hence the term "vortex".
If they can armor that means they'll need to spend a bar and (usually) take a risk to try to avoid being in the vortex. Don't want to take the risk then use it against a character with no armor or when they're meterless.

 

[MadeFromMetal]

I just thought it was funny you disagreed with @MadeFromMetal, and then said basically the exact same thing as him.

That's a different dude. He's MadeOfMetal. I'm MadeFromMetal

 

[Colest]

well, part of it being a vortex is there being no point where you can armor out as well


but just going by YOUR definition of a vortex - what is Scorpions vortex?

What you just described is a 50-50 vortex, vprtexes dont have to be 50-50s though. There can be multiple ways out but if you get hit and it puts you back into the original situation you were in when you got hit then its a vortex. There are varying degrees of vortexes, with 50-50s being the worst

No, his definition is correct, actually. Any particular mixup that loops itself is a vortex. Doesn't have to necessarily be high/low, as long as you get hit, you're stuck in the mixup.

This is false. By definition, a vortex is a 50/50. Your definition of a vortex, loopable pressure without a 50/50, is either a block infinite or a block string. A vortex is not a vortex without a 50/50, granted the 50/50 can be from a Hit/Grab rather than an OH/Low. Any precusory google search will back me up on this. Also a vortex is generally considered such in situations factoring out meter, meaning saying "you can armor out" doesn't make a vortex any less of a vortex.

If we wanna get really technical here, a vortex is not a vortex without a HKD but I can accept the definition has devolved a little bit with misuse. Nonetheless, please take time to learn the proper use of terms. Misinformation around here is already bad enough.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

well, part of it being a vortex is there being no point where you can armor out as well


but just going by YOUR definition of a vortex - what is Scorpions vortex?

some characters have Standing moves on hit that make you +29 and so on. many characters have them like CSZ standing three. so you simply use Standing 3 after freeze on end of combo and then rc into mixup.

Scorpions is standing 4 or 3 can't remember. but many use it like a jip standing 4 into quick rc into pressure.

 

[just_2swift]

Keep the thread on topic pls people the vortex subject is a thread that needs to be created imo you all made good points but for now stay on topic. Thanks.

 

[shura30]

many characters have them like CSZ standing three.

*had

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Can you give an example?

this is a streatch but there are 30/30/30's in this game. and liu kang doesn't really use 50/50's like other characters do. his mix up in flame fists. is a normalinto special into second sepcial or d3 or parry or flame charge or DB2EX or B1.

and each of them have different responses, and if you do 3/4 of them you lose and he wins. if you do the right one you win and its your turn. so in a sense its the same dame thing, cuz if you backdash, he just goes right back into it. if he waits you can meter and he goes right back into chip, if you d1 and he parried its his turn again.

 

[Matix218]

some characters have Standing moves on hit that make you +29 and so on. many characters have them like CSZ standing three. so you simply use Standing 3 after freeze on end of combo and then rc into mixup.

Scorpions is standing 4 or 3 can't remember. but many use it like a jip standing 4 into quick rc into pressure.

Scorpion certainly does not have a true vortex in this game because the only overhead that is fast enough to not react to is his (hellfire/inferno) f2. The f4 that launches is reactable. Scorpion certainly has a solid standing reset that he can use to setup mixups and pressure (especially in hellfire variation) but he does not actually have a vortex. Mk9 scorpion had a vortex with b2 & f4 as both options could reset you into another standing situation and you could not react to the overhead or low, you had to guess.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

*had

yeah his standing 3 is now plus 12.

but think about that.

his b1 comes out in 14 frames.

thats 2 frames to armor through.

its possible but even so.

thats pressure free mixups, and a tool to force opponent to meter and waist bar if they don't want to be forced to guess.

 

[SaltShaker]

Oh, and the corner set up its worse than Wu throws. Opponents can literally get up, and jump out now lol. B1(2+4) will stop it sometimes though if you're fast enough... @JORGIE

They don't even have to do that. They can just stand up and full combo you if you end your corner combo in any version of the setup and go for the 50/50. I tried but found no ways to replicate it. I've tried everything. Either there's too little hit adv or the bombs don't come out in time to do it. The corner setup is dead.

I guess going for max CSZ damage in the corner is supposed to be the new thing to do, and then go for a 1 bar 50/50 or block a WU? I dunno. I just don't know.

 

[shura30]

but think about that.

yeah I thought about that since the patch and the nerf doesn't make any sense
because of the dirt that is still in the game

most cancel character for example can lock you forever in the same identical way smoke's vortex did

and it's not like smoke can hide his intentions in other plus or mixed hit level strings because he's pretty straightforward when it comes to attacks
also B1 SB, one of the two openers for the vortex won't really work unless it's MB or it's B! 2+4 for 15% damage

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

That's a different dude. He's MadeOfMetal. I'm MadeFromMetal

Oh woops!! Sorry bud.

 

[Skedar70]

ai Sindel??

really they're all 33/33/(16.5/16.5) as throw gives you a third option, and then you have to guess which direction to tech.

You can always usually armor jump or duck the throw its not guaranteed. So if you choose to go for the throw you are choosing not to continue the vortex unless the throw is guaranteed and your only defensive option is to tech it(but they usually whiff if you try to throw to early and the opponent is in standing hit stun).

 

[Skedar70]

this is a streatch but there are 30/30/30's in this game. and liu kang doesn't really use 50/50's like other characters do. his mix up in flame fists. is a normalinto special into second sepcial or d3 or parry or flame charge or DB2EX or B1.

and each of them have different responses, and if you do 3/4 of them you lose and he wins. if you do the right one you win and its your turn. so in a sense its the same dame thing, cuz if you backdash, he just goes right back into it. if he waits you can meter and he goes right back into chip, if you d1 and he parried its his turn again.

Those are just his mixups and pressure. Those are not vortexes cause the opponent has a lot of options to get out of his pressure. He is not forced to block them.

 

[Kamikaze_Highlander]

You can always usually armor jump or duck the throw its not guaranteed. So if you choose to go for the throw you are choosing not to continue the vortex unless the throw is guaranteed and your only defensive option is to tech it(but they usually whiff if you try to throw to early and the opponent is in standing hit stun).

I'm more talking about 50/50s in general. Either way it's a read you have to make

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Those are just his mixups and pressure. Those are not vortexes cause the opponent has a lot of options to get out of his pressure. He is not forced to block them.

forced to guess, which is essentially the same as being forced to guess oh or low

may not be a vortex but its close enough

 

[Bender]

My 2 cents: This patch sucked ass. Uncalled nerfs with Bo/ Triborg. Cyrax and Cyber Sub got hit particularly hard. Meanwhile Alien (a much better character) only gets a minor reduction. That was probably the only patch change that I agreed with. The balance before this KP2 patch was really really good. Sure, maybe Brood Mother needed a buff and Alien a minor nerf. But i'd be content if the game was set in stone before this POS patch that just came out.

 

[Bender]

Your definition is based specifically on what you know from NRS games. The general definition is what Khaotik said.

Gonna have to agree with you on this one. A lot of characters have a re-stand but are only slightly plus and sometimes negative. Since you're forced to block the next set of pressure (jailing 333 xx dash kick cancel 114 dash kick cancel into an option, you don't really have options like backshing or neutral ducking or armoring). I'd call that a vortex.

 

[JORGIE]

They don't even have to do that. They can just stand up and full combo you if you end your corner combo in any version of the setup and go for the 50/50. I tried but found no ways to replicate it. I've tried everything. Either there's too little hit adv or the bombs don't come out in time to do it. The corner setup is dead.

I guess going for max CSZ damage in the corner is supposed to be the new thing to do, and then go for a 1 bar 50/50 or block a WU? I dunno. I just don't know.

What they want us to do apparently is to d3 on their wakeup and hope they don't wake up with armor. Then you have to hope they don't press anything and insta air divekick. Or you can be extra ballsy and go for a grab. Lol this is off of a blocked d3 though so anybody that's good will just jump out/armor/njp/or do another of their many options. At least that's what's been working for me lol miraculously

 

[Derwood1979]

In Bo's defense, you would to if you drank like that.

Rum-pum-pum.

 

[SaSSolino]

hell no

he's negative on everything beside few strings with a gap that really lead to nothing considering his startup frames
and his 'heavy + frames' consists of +2 and metered +4

my suggestions:

1112's gap should be removed, you can already jump out the followup after 111
1 or 11 could be +1 like the majority of the cast already has for frame traps
f4 d1 should be an overhead to not let the opponent automatically rape you after ducking f43
increase range on d3 / d1 / d4
fix b21 to not whiff on crouching opponents
fix b1 SB to universal combo not tied to matchup or MB

Besides the fact that it's metered +5 and not +4, do you realize that for a vortex you need to check out the frames ON HIT, right? B21 is +16 and I'm positive you can have more if it's not enough for you, smoke does have vortex.