MK9 Potential Patch Character Balancing and Discussion

[Alien Substance]

-- Cyber Sub-Zero --

Priority changes:

Ice Bombs always freeze.
Except when the opponent has already been caught in an Ice Bomb. Currently, CSZ's Ice Bombs only freeze if the opponent is in a state in which he/she is able to block.

Teleport has the same invincibility properties as Cyrax's Teleport.
No reason to have a Teleport very similar to Cyrax's, yet lacking the safety properties of the Yellow Robot.

Close and Far EX Divekicks (Powerkicks) have complete armor on startup.
In a previous patch, Sub-Zero and Reptile's Enhanced Slides gained armor, while Cyber Sub-Zero recieved nothing. "Price of Divekicks" logic is bullshit: they aren't that good. CSZ currently has no armor at all, with the exception of Cool Down (X-Ray).


Optional / Low-priority changes:

Remove rule: Ice Bombs cannot be launched after an Ice Ball freeze.
Doesn't make sense to keep that rule in, when Cyber Sub-Zero can already circumvent it by cancelling into an Ice Bomb from an U+4, on an aerial opponent after an Ice Ball freeze. Cyrax-esque 90% damage resets are not going to occur by removing that rule.

B+3 has faster startup by ten frames (16 startup frames). Little use for it; easily fuzzy-guardable at 26 frames.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I only play the game offline.

Giving him normal advantage on pokes will lead to free hellfires and 50/50s, even Slips was against it.

I can see how the -10 frame gap between D4(+12) and immediate hellfire(22 frames) could be, i'm not saying it would be hard to react to, but, it would definitely be the most expected.

A regular D4 advantage on hit in this game is +12, only dumb Cyrax is +16 on hit and you're forced to respect his 9 frame jab afterwards.

Scorpion's D4 should be at least +8 like sub-zero, so he would be at -14 if he tries a 50/50.

 

[NKZero]

Nerfs to kabal and kenshi, cyrax and smoke resets removed, make sonya ex cartwheel punishable.

the low hat as a pressure tool would not solve his problem at all, let go of it. kung lao doesnt need buffs, but if other characters would receive buffs it would be a problem for kung lao. what would help the problems in some matchups is:

- make kung lao's low hat have better whiff recovery for zoning purposes against characters like cage, sonya, cyrax, sektor and so on. nerf the recovery on block and make it even more than -12 so some of these kung lao players can finally move on with their life.
- f2 a little faster

this would solve kung lao's not having a mid problem.

to be fair if jax's f41 would hit mid in the second string and characters like sektor would receive some buffs to his t rex arms, kung lao should get some slight tweaks as well. also sektors low starter does not need to be changed because he doesnt need a safe low combo starter and his ex teleport should stay the same, asking for 0 on block is just too much, what would help is that his teleport wouldnt whiff on buzzsaw anymore but ex does so it wouldnt be braindead.

I don't think EX teleport being 0 is too much. Here's a typical Sektor situation. He gets raped in the corner. Has no viable wake-ups. Does EX teleport and is -8 or whatever. Get's thrown back into the corner. His flame burner doesn't have great priority on wake-up, even his teleport/EX doesn't but at least when it does work we're back to neutral. Nothing wrong with having a safe wake-up considering it's funky priorities. I could accept maybe -2 on block though. Also b+3, 4 is safe (neutral on block), but the hit-box issues are a little annoying and against characters like Mileena he gets very little offense started.

 

[Big Pampering]

I don't think EX teleport being 0 is too much. Here's a typical Sektor situation. He gets raped in the corner. Has no viable wake-ups. Does EX teleport and is -8 or whatever. Get's thrown back into the corner. His flame burner doesn't have great priority on wake-up, even his teleport/EX doesn't but at least when it does work we're back to neutral. Nothing wrong with having a safe wake-up considering it's funky priorities. I could accept maybe -2 on block though. Also b+3, 4 is safe (neutral on block), but the hit-box issues are a little annoying and against characters like Mileena he gets very little offense started.

it is already safe and a lot of characters don't even get to do what they want because of his hitbox and you get a lot of damage off of it. to make the teleport 0 on block wouldnt solve his issues which is the wakeup attack but would make the teleport OP in the neutral game. I would just make the flamethrower a good wakeup attack, if they try to cross you over they would get hit by the teleport, so it would be a legit guessing game.
Sektor having a legit wakeup games would solve a lot of issues like being in the corner, he doesnt get to complain about being cornered because his own corner game is top 5 in the game imo

the low being punishable is acceptable imo, since he already would have a lot better normals if some of his strings didn't whiff anymore. I don't think he needs armor since he has the fastest normal in the game and the second smallest hitbox in the game.

 

[NKZero]

it is already safe and a lot of characters don't even get to do what they want because of his hitbox and you get a lot of damage off of it. to make the teleport 0 on block wouldnt solve his issues which is the wakeup attack but would make the teleport OP in the neutral game. I would just make the flamethrower a good wakeup attack, if they try to cross you over they would get hit by the teleport, so it would be a legit guessing game.
Sektor having a legit wakeup games would solve a lot of issues like being in the corner, he doesnt get to complain about being cornered because his own corner game is top 5 in the game imo

the low being punishable is acceptable imo, since he already would have a lot better normals if some of his strings didn't whiff anymore. I don't think he needs armor since he has the fastest normal in the game and the second smallest hitbox in the game.

the idea of EX teleport is not to make it punishable but for opposing characters to start their offense since it's negative. no character currently has a problem doing that.

but you did make some very good points. what i'll say is, Sektor either needs a safe low combo starter that connects against all opponents or make the EX teleport -2/-3 or something like that. He definitely needs a buff. As for wake-ups then yeah I agree with you. make flame burner a more reliable wake-up.

 

[Briggs8417]

I made a post in the other thread but I'll post here too.

For Reptile:

1) Make Ex elbow dash uninterruptable
2) Either make d1 positive on hit, or give d3 more hit advantage vs. standing characters.

For Jax:

1) Get rid of corner resets by making ex ground pounds cause a hard knockdown.
2) Make f413 hit on all characters.

For Cyrax:

1) Reduce block advantage on b2
2) When an opponent is hit by a second net in a combo it causes a hard knockdown. (eliminating resets)

For Kabal:

1) Get rid of block string infinites.
2) Allow Kabal to only have one projectile on screen at a time.
3) Reduce the hitbox on nomad dash so that it can be jumped.

For Jade:

1) Damage Boost
2) Get rid of the double damage taken on ex glow when hit.
3) Increase the cancel advantage on all of her block strings to get rid of their interruptability and help with her mixup game a bit.
4) Give u3 it's old hitbox.

For Kenshi:

1) Make Teleflurries and Telekinetic slams count as projectiles.
2) Make Spirit Charge more punishable on block.

For Sonya:

I would make suggestions but I feel like they would be jaded, so I will leave these suggestions to people less biased against this character than myself.

For Smoke:

1) F4 causes a splat animation on hit removing his true resets.

That's all I have for now, I'll be sure to post anything else I can think of later.

 

[Big Pampering]

the idea of EX teleport is not to make it punishable but for opposing characters to start their offense since it's negative. no character currently has a problem doing that.

but you did make some very good points. what i'll say is, Sektor either needs a safe low combo starter that connects against all opponents or make the EX teleport -2/-3 or something like that. He definitely needs a buff. As for wake-ups then yeah I agree with you. make flame burner a more reliable wake-up.

You know that ex teleport is a fast launcher anywhere on the screen that is safe right, for people to only pressure you with a string for having made a wrong guess with a 40% launcher is as good as it can get. Not all characters get a guaranteed string, kung lao doesnt have a mid so you can poke him out of pressure, same for mileena because her normals are really slow. so its not even guaranteed pressure.

sektors normal with my mentioned buffs is already top 8 character imo. if you insist on making his low better I would make the second hit not whiff but make the string easy full combo punish on block, to make it safe you have to cancel it into ex teleport.

 

[Satan1]

Just buff the weak and keep all the cheap shit in, we want a hype game, damnit!

 

[NKZero]

You know that ex teleport is a fast launcher anywhere on the screen that is safe right, for people to only pressure you with a string for having made a wrong guess with a 40% launcher is as good as it can get. Not all characters get a guaranteed string, kung lao doesnt have a mid so you can poke him out of pressure, same for mileena because her normals are really slow. so its not even guaranteed pressure.

sektors normal with my mentioned buffs is already top 8 character imo. if you insist on making his low better I would make the second hit not whiff but make the string easy full combo punish on block, to make it safe you have to cancel it into ex teleport.

Lao can punish lol so it doesn't matter that much (even though the punish window is tight). But as I said I admit maybe I was asking for too much for EX teleport. i wouldn't make b+3, 4 punishable in any way. if all hits connect then i'd accept if it's -5 on block or something.

taking what you said into consideration, I would keep EX teleport as is, armour EX flame burner and make flame burner more reliable in general on wake-up. make b+3, 4 -5 on block from neutral but make all hits connect. Fix 1, 2, b+1 so the 2 doesn't whiff sometimes.

 

[Big Pampering]

Lao can punish lol so it doesn't matter that much (even though the punish window is tight). But as I said I admit maybe I was asking for too much for EX teleport. i wouldn't make b+3, 4 punishable in any way. if all hits connect then i'd accept if it's -5 on block or something.

taking what you said into consideration, I would keep EX teleport as is, armour EX flame burner and make flame burner more reliable in general on wake-up. make b+3, 4 -5 on block from neutral but make all hits connect. Fix 1, 2, b+1 so the 2 doesn't whiff sometimes.

how does lao punish? You can't count in training mode stuff, because then I would be punishing d1's on block making the kung lao kitana matchup 7-3 in my favor. the standing 1 cannot get a hitbox buff, because it is 6 frames, I was talking about the 2 getting a buff. If standing 1 would get a hitbox buff+before mentioned buffs he would be top 3.

 

[RunwayMafia]

Sindel needs an armored move, preferably on Scream. Jade needs her old damage back, her U3 to be mid again, and for her flash to to work against everything Kenshi does.

 

[NKZero]

I made a post in the other thread but I'll post here too.

For Reptile:

1) Make Ex elbow dash uninterruptable YES
2) Either make d1 positive on hit, or give d3 more hit advantage vs. standing characters. YES

For Jax:

1) Get rid of corner resets by making ex ground pounds cause a hard knockdown. YES
2) Make f413 hit on all characters. YES

For Cyrax:

1) Reduce block advantage on b2 YES
2) When and opponent is hit by a second net in a combo it causes a hard knockdown. (eliminating resets) YES

For Kabal:

1) Get rid of block string infinities. YES
2) Allow Kabal to only have one projectile on screen at a time. YES
3) Reduce the hitbox on nomad dash so that it can be jumped. NO. I don't think that is necessary. I think if anything he needs the saw blade to be fixed. The hit-box from behind thing is ridiculous.

For Jade:

1) Damage Boost YES
2) Get rid of the double damage taken on ex glow when hit. YES
3) Increase the cancel advantage on all of her block strings to get rid of their interruptability and help with her mixup game a bit. YES
4) Give u3 it's old hitbox. YES

For Kenshi:

1) Make Teleflurries and Telekinetic slams count as projectiles. NO. Why should they be?
2) Make Spirit Charge more punishable on block. YES

For Sonya:

I would make suggestions but I feel like they would be jaded, so I will leave these suggestions to people less biased against this character than myself. Perhaps make EX cartwheel full combo punishable on block. What do you think? But to compensate for that perhaps one of her lesser used moves could gain some use in some way idk.

For Smoke:

1) F4 causes a splat animation on hit removing his true resets. YES.

That's all I have for now, I'll be sure to post anything else I can think of later.

Very good suggestions that would ensure removal of big damage guaranteed resets. One or two things I disagree with but wow great stuff.

 

[1man3letters]

just because

mileena.
neckbite is -5 on block
reduce scaling on ex neckbite

baraka.
reduce f2. b3 & standing 2 by 2 frames on start up.
SLIGHTY reduce recovery on whiffed blade spark
f4/f44 being made special cancelable would be nice but a luxury

 

[NKZero]

how does lao punish? You can't count in training mode stuff, because then I would be punishing d1's on block making the kung lao kitana matchup 7-3 in my favor. the standing 1 cannot get a hitbox buff, because it is 6 frames, I was talking about the 2 getting a buff. If standing 1 would get a hitbox buff+before mentioned buffs he would be top 3.

wait I'm confused. you mean Sektor's 2 or the 2 in 1, 2, b+1?

I was kidding about Lao haha. I mean it is possible but hugely unreliable. I've seen it once maybe and I think the Lao player was just mashing spin.

 

[Big Pampering]

Also kenshi should only get minor buffs imo which are 2: his ex spirit charge is -2 and there should be a big window in between d1/d3 canceled into spirit charge. Keep in mind that other characters are getting buffed.

kabal, would be buzzsaw doesnt come out if he gets hit, and it is a lot more punishable on block. gasblast either builds less meter or has more recover to get on the ground again. maybe ex dash cannot be canceled anymore.

 

[NKZero]

Sindel needs an armored move, preferably on Scream. Jade needs her old damage back, her U3 to be mid again, and for her flash to to work against everything Kenshi does.

As in my response to Joker's post, I don't think Kenshi's spirit moves should be projectiles. If that just happens to be a tough match then so be it. That's not to say that she doesn't deserve buffs in general, which may help Jade in other ways in this MU. Does the EX flash kick for Jade (if that's the name) have full screen armour or is it like Cage's? In any case making armour last for the whole duration of the move might help her get in.

 

[Briggs8417]

Very good suggestions that would ensure removal of big damage guaranteed resets. One or two things I disagree with but wow great stuff.

I can understand Nomad Dash, but the teleflurry/TKS one is kind of a big deal. If you don't make both a projectile at least one of them. If you don't agree with this, then at least make it to where Jade can glow those mofos lol, that's the biggest reason I would call for it, but then again Smoke could have a field day with them if this happened too. Punishable Ex Cartwheel would be fair, I could definitely get behind that.

 

[Tang94]

I said it before in the PC mods thread, but given the slight possibility of a new patch, I'll say it again:

-All Characters-
Reverse the dash nerf.

 

[Big Pampering]

wait I'm confused. you mean Sektor's 2 or the 2 in 1, 2, b+1?

I was kidding about Lao haha. I mean it is possible but hugely unreliable. I've seen it once maybe and I think the Lao player was just mashing spin.

if you look at the frame data it was -9 I believe? spin is 6 frames, so you would have 3 frames to punish a move that could appear behind you at any moment. Somebody saying they are doing this in a real match is a bigger theory fighter than somebody saying they are punishing d1's on block with spin.

 

[NKZero]

I can understand Nomad Dash, but the teleflurry/TKS one is kind of a big deal. If you don't make both a projectile at least one of them. If you don't agree with this, then at least make it to where Jade can glow those mofos lol, that's the biggest reason I would call for it, but then again Smoke could have a field day with them if this happened too. Punishable Ex Cartwheel would be fair, I could definitely get behind that.

that's what i mean. i'm all for helping Jade in a terrible MU, but moves with similar properties should act similarly among all characters. we don't wanna help smoke now do we? . that's why I'm against it, plus it's not really a projectile in a sense. it makes Kenshi unique lol (as much as it pains me to say it).

 

[NKZero]

if you look at the frame data it was -9 I believe? spin is 6 frames, so you would have 3 frames to punish a move that could appear behind you at any moment. Somebody saying they are doing this in a real match is a bigger theory fighter than somebody saying they are punishing d1's on block with spin.

as i said chances are the dude was mashing, and i was kidding about punishment in the first place.

but answer the previous question. Sektor's 2 or the 2 in 1, 2, b+1 string?

 

[Big Pampering]

as i said chances are the dude was mashing, and i was kidding about punishment in the first place.

but answer the previous question. Sektor's 2 or the 2 in 1, 2, b+1 string?

all strings but the standing 1 string that starts at 6 frames.

 

[NKZero]

all strings but the standing 1 string that starts at 6 frames.

Dude it's not like Sektor is a rush down machine or a zoning master, so why can't he excel in punishment? Besides his standing 1 is best used to punish things since it hits high anyways. What's wrong with wanting all the hits to connect like they're supposed to? When I punish the smoke bomb, I don't want to guess whether my 1, 2 b+1 will connect or not, and if the 2 whiffs somehow I could get punished for whiffing? Doesn't make sense to me. It's far from an unreasonable suggestion. Anyways with the exception of this string and b+3, 4, his other strings are fine property wise.

 

[Briggs8417]

Oh one more adjusment, make Mileena's normal telekick into sai whiff on Reptile standing...it's pretty dumb that he is the only character in the game who has to hold dat shit. I don't need this but it would be nice lol.

 

[Big Pampering]

Dude it's not like Sektor is a rush down machine or a zoning master, so why can't he excel in punishment? Besides his standing 1 is best used to punish things since it hits high anyways. What's wrong with wanting all the hits to connect like they're supposed to? When I punish the smoke bomb, I don't want to guess whether my 1, 2 b+1 will connect or not, and if the 2 whiffs somehow I could get punished for whiffing? Doesn't make sense to me. It's far from an unreasonable suggestion. Anyways with the exception of this string and b+3, 4, his other strings are fine property wise.

anything you should be punshing can already be done by the standing 2, what do you want to punish that cant be done by standing 2 already. the standing 1 should be for interrupting point blank pressure.